How do Atheists view the Prophets (messengers of Allah)?

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czgibson said:
Greetings,


Going back to the L. Ron Hubbard example: he was called a nutcase by huge numbers of people for most of his life (much longer than thirteen years) - does that mean that he was telling the truth? I think not.

Peace
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lol, thats nothing, did he get tortured/abandoned/deserted/attacked/abused. I know nothing about Hubbard but our prophet was recognised as the most honest man, and he baught us the Quran. What did hubbard bring?!
 
:salamext:

Plus many people (non Muslims) recognise the Propher Muhammad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam to be the greatest example of mankind.
 
Greetings,
IbnAbdulHakim said:
lol, thats nothing, did he get tortured/abandoned/deserted/attacked/abused.
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Except for torture, yes, as far as I know. His followers might even claim he was tortured as well. He was frequently the subject of legal action by disgruntled ex-members of his cult.

I know nothing about Hubbard but our prophet was recognised as the most honest man, and he baught us the Quran. What did hubbard bring?!
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I'm not supporting Hubbard - he was clearly a megalomaniac and pathological liar - but going by your argument, the fact that he was persecuted means we should believe what he said.

He was the founder of Scientology, by the way. It's a well known religious cult.

Plus many people (non Muslims) recognise the Propher Muhammad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam to be the greatest example of mankind.
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Some do, yes. There's no doubt that Muhammad (pbuh) was an extraordinary man - no other religious leader has reached their 'promised land' within their own lifetime.

It's possible that he genuinely did believe he was in contact with Allah, but that's hardly cast-iron proof that he was.

Peace
 
czgibson said:
I'm not supporting Hubbard - he was clearly a megalomaniac and pathological liar - but going by your argument, the fact that he was persecuted means we should believe what he said.

He was the founder of Scientology, by the way. It's a well known religious cult.ce
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lol i rest my case. you will not find a single sane, intelligent man who can say the same thing about Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam.

He never lied, and the allegations of illusions and mental illnesses are all baseless.
 
The only Torture that i know the prophet received was when the three men, who's names escape me, threw sheeps entrails on his back as he prayed.
When their tribe was defeated, they were flung down a well, and their children were promised that "Hellfire" would look after them.

I dont know of any other torture the Prophet received except this incident, (which you could argue , he got more than enough revenge for).
 
^ just to mention a few:

his jewish neighbour would always leave thorns on his path, there was an attempt to strangle/kill him. When he would preach they would stone him till he bleeds profusely. During the battles he was injured severely, and the mental torture also has a long list...

he was also boycotted severely for three years...


theres much more then what ive mentioned, please look into his life story for more details (i know you wont do this though, how sad for you)
 
Ive already looked into his life thanks, in some depth.
(I forgot the alleged poisioning attempt on his life by the Jews).

The wars are self inflicted, mental torture is relevent to how Thick-skinned a person is emotionally, and Boycotting by some people is utterly irrelevent when you have thousands of people who are willing to die to protect you.

I'm going to look further into the stoning as he preached, but I cant see this doing anything other than reinforcing my opinion, that here was a man who was utterly convinced the Voices were from God and a few stones were nothing compared to the horrible fate the voices told him awaited him if he did not comply.

The name & death of his torturers is here By the way, they were flung down the well when they were dead. I kinda asumed they had been alive! Thats what assumption gets ya!:

Sahih Muslim Book 040, Number 6869:

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said: O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rab'ila, O Shaiba b. Rabi'a, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Then he commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr.

When the men threw the guts at his back he said:"O Allah! Punish Abu Jahl, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, and 'Uqba bin Al Mu'it. (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 241)
 
^ end of the day barney, he baught the Quran.

whilst his life is a miracle, the Quran is a greater miracle.

Also its amazing that you've read his life and can think there are ulterior motives, Allah knows best your condition.
 
Greetings,
IbnAbdulHakim said:
lol i rest my case. you will not find a single sane, intelligent man who can say the same thing about Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam.
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Isn't this the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy in another form?

He never lied, and the allegations of illusions and mental illnesses are all baseless.
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Fair enough - we all have a right to believe what makes sense to us.

I'm still not completely clear, given what you've said, on why we should listen to Muhammad (pbuh), but we shouldn't listen to L. Ron Hubbard.

Peace
 
It's all each to their own, no compulsion and all that sort of thing. If I'm punished in the everafter with my shirt's of pitch, then Im going to look particually embarrassed.

You have to bear in mind i'm veiwing all the prophets from a humanistic point. As I say, in Mohammeds case, I think he was on balance in the group of prophets who really genuinely and truely beleived his voices. The wealth and adoration, the "Buzz" of being so respected that forever after each time your name is mentioned your faithful utter a little prayer just for you, all of that is speculation. I suppose in a nutshell you could boil it all down to "Did he enjoy being a prophet"?
 
^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!
 
More people adore and respect the Buddha and Jesus, both of which went thru much greater torture and pain than Muhammed ever did.
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!
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Yeah. If God wanted to communicate with us, he would do so. Not to one person by a invisible angel who , in the case of Judism, occassionally mumbles something vauge or to a guy in a cave by attacking him. Or by manifesting himself in human form and waiting 27 odd years before deciding he's God incarnate, then getting himself bumped off in order to wash sin away with his blood.

He would send a uncorruptable message simultaiously to all humanity. Interact with us in a meaningful way. He would live up to his claim of being just and merciful. He wouldnt butcher children for laughing at a bald guys head, or order fighting and war until his rule was supreme, or ask people to eat him up and drink his blood every sunday, or ask people to kill their only son. The list drones on and on.

I work in mental health and I see a lot of people who in days past would be prophets. Most of them would fail it's true, but one would get lucky and with the right incentives (Free Sex, theft of those you murder, dominance over others) there are still cults that even today spring up. There is one in Russia right now, waiting for April next year when armageddon happens. They are holed up in a complex in Siberia with Guns and lots of tinned food.
Their leader is enlightened and bringing to his people his voices commands. They are thrilled to be part of something so exiting.

Hopefully they'll last till next march before blowing themselves to bits or getting stormed by Putins boys.
 
NYCmuslim said:
Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:
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I believe that Noah was a myth. The flood story in Genesis is basically the same as the flood stories in previous Babylonian myths (the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Epic of Atrahasis). Atrahasis is almost the exact same character as Noah, but instead of Yahweh flooding the earth and saving him, the god Enlil floods it and the god Enki saves him by telling him to build an ark and load it up with animals for sacrifice. It is pretty clear the ancient Hebrews took a well-known Babylonian myth and changed it around for their purposes—many religions do this.

Abraham may be based on ancestor legends passed down through oral tradition, or he may be pure fiction. I feel the same way about Abraham as I do about people like Arjuna and Rama from Hindu mythology—they may be based on real kings who became legendary figures as their stories were told and retold, or they may be myths.

Many elements of Moses' story are obvious myths. For example, the story about him being washed down a river in a basket is identical to an earlier Babylonian legend about King Sargon of Akkad (it's also identical to a Hindu legend about an ancient hero named Karna). I do think the idea of an Egyptian man (Moses is an Egyptian name) leading an exodus out of Egypt into Israel is interesting, though, because around the time this story supposedly happened, a monotheistic religion had sprouted up in Egypt. This religion—founded by a pharoah named Akhenaten—was promptly squashed by his successors. It is the first recorded instance of monotheism in history, and I think it's entirely possible that some of these Egyptian monotheists found their way into Canaan and intermingled with the tribes living there. After all, ancient Judaism is basically Babylonian religion + Egyptian monotheism. So perhaps elements of the Exodus story are based on fact. (That said, I think Moses' laws are some of the all-time worst laws in the history of human civilization ... he is the only religious leader to command genocide, as far as I am aware)

I think Jesus and Muhammad existed. I know there are some atheists who say Jesus never existed. But that leaves a lot to explain—for example, if Paul and Peter just invented Jesus out of whole-cloth, where did the pre-Pauline cult of Christians come from? Obviously, I don't accept Jesus' miracles and I think much of his teachings were lost or distorted by the much-later gospel writers. But I think he almost certainly existed.

I also don't see any reason to doubt Muhammad's existence. Though I don't believe he talked to an angel or rode up into the sky on the back of a flying donkey with the face of a beautiful woman.
 
Riding a flying donkey with the face of a woman? Are you poking fun or is this actually part of the religions doctrine?
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!
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Yes.

Perhaps god was too busy that day and sent an angel. But wait a sec. The Koran was revealed over 20 years.

God must have been too busy for 20 years so he sent an angel.

Of course to god, 20 years is a split second and so god must have been busy for a split second and so sent an angel in his place.

-
 
Pygoscelis said:
Riding a flying donkey with the face of a woman? Are you poking fun or is this actually part of the religions doctrine?
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http://www.musesrealm.net/deities/alburak.html
Al Burak is the Prophets mount that carried him to the "Furtherest Place", it was a hybrid donkey or horse with the torso of face of a woman.
It's not poking fun, it's a genuine Muslim beleif.

When it leaped off the Rock to carry him into heaven on his nights journey, it left a hoofprint in the rock, still visible today at the Dome of the rock.
 
Qingu said:
... or rode up into the sky on the back of a flying donkey with the face of a beautiful woman.
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Hmmm, I find that very funny. I've never heard of that and I doubt that its true.
 
i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.


No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.


Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.


Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.
 
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