Hamas leader offers truce if Israel withdraws from 1967 lands

[جوري]

theres not much more to be typed.

except for this 'agreed'!

 

[Trumble]

'world government' has no jurisprudence over Muslim land!

There is no such thing as "muslim land" any more than there is Christian land or Jewish land. There are only people the people who live on it at a particular point in time who may or may not be muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever. Like it or not (and I don't, in many cases) jurisdiction resides with those it always has resided with - those with the power to exercise it. That includes 'muslims' in many places and at many times.

The pretense that this is a primarily religious conflict and not a political one has done immense damage to any realistic chance of a settlement - which is, of course, exactly what those who try to portray it as such on both sides want. But the gullible rush onboard.. at the first mention of 'God's people', 'God's will' or whatever, reason circuits are disengaged and extreme self-righteousness amplifies the existing distrust and hatred.

 

[islamirama]

There is no such thing as "muslim land" any more than there is Christian land or Jewish land. There are only people the people who live on it at a particular point in time who may or may not be muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever. Like it or not (and I don't, in many cases) jurisdiction resides with those it always has resided with - those with the power to exercise it. That includes 'muslims' in many places and at many times.

There is no such thing as an "islamic land" because no one is ruling according to Islam. But there IS a thing as Muslim lands. All of the arab world and part of SE Asia is Muslim land. Turkey is Muslim land with 99.9% muslims being there. There is a christian land as well, all of Europe and UK is christian land.

 

[جوري]

There is no such thing as "muslim land" any more than there is Christian land or Jewish land. There are only people the people who live on it at a particular point in time who may or may not be muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever. Like it or not (and I don't, in many cases) jurisdiction resides with those it always has resided with - those with the power to exercise it. That includes 'muslims' in many places and at many times.

The pretense that this is a primarily religious conflict and not a political one has done immense damage to any realistic chance of a settlement - which is, of course, exactly what those who try to portray it as such on both sides want. But the gullible rush onboard.. at the first mention of 'God's people', 'God's will' or whatever, reason circuits are disengaged and extreme self-righteousness amplifies the existing distrust and hatred.

lol you are hilarious.. what is Israel then? was it not an establishment of a "jewish state for God's chosen'
pls man go stick some pretty yellow flowers on your buggy, you are not suited for politics!

cheers

 

[barney]

except for this 'agreed'!

No...this! Ha!
**Closes Thread**

 

[Roasted Cashew]

my point was that the jewish people are more then willing to let the muslims live in israel if they refrain from all acts of terror.furthermore, why would the jewish people give the land back if they took over it the way you muslims took over it.

We never kicked the inhabitants out. We never made the people who lived there refugees in their own land. Idiot. Get your facts straight. And Palestinian are ready to live in peace if you agree to the 1967 borders, stop settlements, give the refugees right to return, etc. When the occupation stops, terrorism will stop too.

 

[Keltoi]

Refugees will never get the right to return. Israel has made that very clear. Unless of course the Palestinians develop their own state...then they can invite whoever they want...excluding terrorists of course. That is why a peace deal with a two-state solution is seen as the only course, particularly by the U.S. and U.K.

If the Palestinians do get a state of their own, millions upon millions of international aid money will flow into that state. Unless there is Arafat style corruption, this Palestinian state will be propped up and functional in little time at all. Which is why it makes no sense to me why Hamas is supported at all. All Hamas are achieving is more suffering for their own people and stopping any chance of a true Palestinian state. Ask yourself why that is. What organization stands to lose influence when Palestine needs professionals, doctors, diplomats, etc?...that would be Hamas.

 

[Gator]

And Palestinian are ready to live in peace if you agree to the 1967 borders, stop settlements, give the refugees right to return, etc. When the occupation stops, terrorism will stop too.

hmmm5,
How bout this.

1) 67 borders with some adjustments (to be discussed).
2) Stop settlements.
3) withdraw from some permanent and all wildcat settlements.
4) stop existing settlement expansion.
5) Refugees return only to new palestinian state.
6) Compensation to Refugees.
7) Palestinians stop resistance and terrorist acts.
8) Amnesty for most Palestinians held in Israeli jails and return of kidnapped soldiers, etc.

How bout that?

Thanks.

 

[Trumble]

lol you are hilarious.. what is Israel then? was it not an establishment of a "jewish state for God's chosen'

Actually, no it wasn't. Although there certainly were some religious Zionists, the primary motivation was the establishment of a home for the Jewish people whether they happened to believe themselves "God's chosen" or not.

pls man go stick some pretty yellow flowers on your buggy, you are not suited for politics!

I don't say this casually to one of your undoubted intelligence, but I'm afraid before making comments that that you really need to get a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

hmmm5,
How bout this.

1) 67 borders with some adjustments (to be discussed).
2) Stop settlements.
3) withdraw from some permanent and all wildcat settlements.
4) stop existing settlement expansion.
5) Refugees return only to new palestinian state.
6) Compensation to Refugees.
7) Palestinians stop resistance and terrorist acts.
8) Amnesty for most Palestinians held in Israeli jails and return of kidnapped soldiers, etc.

How bout that?

Thanks.

I agree with all the points except for no.1. What are these adjustments?

 

[Gator]

I agree with all the points except for no.1. What are these adjustments?

I don't know but they are always talked about. Its usually based on "defendable" borders.

I'd say what every adjustments are made they have to be territory neutral. Whatever israel takes in one place they give in another and the land has to be of the same quality and not additionally detrimental to the Palestinians. It also can't be a material change to the shape of the 1967 borders.

http://www.zionismexplained.org/map/landmap1.jpg

 

[Mukafi7]

I like to be optimistic, but unfortunately this ill never hold. We all know Israel does not want peace. Yes, they hav mastered the art of looking like the victim, but they incite a lot of the havoc. I know some will read this and think I'm crazy, but I know it is true. I you closely monitor the actions taken by the IDF (that is if we can call them that), you will see what I am talking about.

 

[barney]

Worth watching.
The Truce isnt for peace. It's buying time says Hamas leadership.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1750.htm


Kind of blows much of the above comments by members out of the water.

 

[Gator]

I like to be optimistic, but unfortunately this ill never hold. We all know Israel does not want peace. Yes, they hav mastered the art of looking like the victim, but they incite a lot of the havoc. I know some will read this and think I'm crazy, but I know it is true. I you closely monitor the actions taken by the IDF (that is if we can call them that), you will see what I am talking about.

An interesting article on this...

Israel’s Tactics Thwart Attacks, With Trade-Off

By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: May 3, 2008
NETANYA, Israel — Suicide bombings in Israel have dropped off so significantly that the nation’s security officials now dare to speak openly of success. But the very steps they are taking to thwart bombers appear to collide head-on with the government’s agenda of achieving peace with the Palestinians.

It is a classic military-political dilemma. The progress in stopping suicide bombers, the vast majority of whom cross into Israel from the West Bank, has brought enough quiet for Israel to resume peace talks with the Palestinian leadership there.

But the current calm is fragile, and to maintain it Israeli security officials say they must continue their nightly arrests and sometimes deadly raids in the heart of the West Bank — tactics at odds with a peace effort that envisions a separate Palestinian state, an eventual Israeli withdrawal from much of the West Bank and, in the meantime, a gradual transfer of authority to the Palestinian police.

link - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/03/world/middleeast/03israel.html?hp

 

[Mukafi7]

Salam All,

I wish if I can optimistic, but when it comes to this topic one cnnot forget the past. If we look at history, it becomes evidently clear that they will never be peace in that region. Bany Yahood are fighting a long war which they are bound to lose!

 

[Mukafi7]

خان يونس: الجيش الاسرائيلي ينسحب من عبسان مخلفاً 3 شهداء وخمسة منازل مدمرة

كتب محمد الجمل :
أكملت القوات الإسرائيلية انسحابها بصورة كاملة من بلدة عبسان الواقعة شرقي محافظة خان يونس وبعض المناطق المحيطة بها، في ساعة مبكرة من فجر أمس، مخلفة ثلاثة شهداء بينهم أم لسبعة أطفال، وكذلك هدم خمسة منازل، إضافة إلى دمار كبير طال الأراضي الزراعية ومرافق البنية التحتية.[/size][/size]

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

lol you are hilarious.. what is Israel then? was it not an establishment of a "jewish state for God's chosen'
pls man go stick some pretty yellow flowers on your buggy, you are not suited for politics!

cheers

You rock sis! Thank you for opening some eyes when it comes to this new round of "church and state" politics. Oh, and the 1967 borders are still illegal according to the Torah. Hamas should push this issue. If it doesn't, I'll be happy to do it for them!

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Gator]

Oh, and the 1967 borders are still illegal according to the Torah.

Please source from the Torah and the actual Israeli law that says you can't go back to 1967 borders.

Also, we're talking political reality here so there would be broad international pressure and a large portion (polls conflict on whether its a majority or minority) of Israelis support concession.

Thanks.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

My position on this subject intends to refute the "claim" made by certain Muslim groups that accuse Judaism (the religion) of being responsible for the creation of the state the people have called Israel. To begin:

Abu Omar al Baghdadi from his address "Religion is the Advice" stated:

Second: Israel is founded on a religious basis, it is a religious state, and he is a liar he who claims that it is a secular state exploiting the religion. It is a malignant bacterium sowed in the body of the Ummahs and it must be plucked out even if the traitors signed with it thousands of surrender treaties.

I took offense to the accusation that Judaism (the religion) had caused the creation of this state they now call Israel because the state does not recognize Torah laws that governed Israel, among several other violations. The most notable are as follows:

The Lot and the Prenuptial Agreement: The land of Israel was divided into 12 regional territories in accordance with the will of God. To avoid confusion in the event inter-marriages should occur between the 12 tribes of Israel, a prenuptial agreement was put in place, as follows:

Book of Numbers, Chapter 36, verses 1 - 9:

and they said: 'The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for inheritance by lot to the children of Israel; and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters. And if they be married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then will their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of our fathers, and will be added to the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they shall belong; so will it be taken away from the lot of our inheritance. And when the jubilee of the children of Israel shall be, then will their inheritance be added unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they shall belong; so will their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.' And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD, saying: 'The tribe of the sons of Joseph speaketh right. This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying: Let them be married to whom they think best; only into the family of the tribe of their father shall they be married. So shall no inheritance of the children of Israel be removed from tribe to tribe; for the children of Israel shall cleave every one to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers. And every daughter, that possesseth an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel, shall be wife unto one of the family of the tribe of her father, that the children of Israel may possess every man the inheritance of his fathers. So shall no inheritance be removed from one tribe to another tribe; for the tribes of the children of Israel shall cleave each one to its own inheritance.'

The new state that has been called Israel, claimed by the sons of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah, does not recognize or honor this law. They have claimed all 12 of the tribal lands of Israel even though, according to Torah, they are only entitled to two of them, those of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah. If fact, when Ezra led his return from Babylon, he only claimed the lands of Benjamin and Judah ~ and not a single square inch more... because of this law.

The Nephalim:

When Ezra was informed that there were mixed marriages between the Jews and the Am Ha'Aretz (local people), he ordered them to divorce because intermarriage was forbidden, even between the tribes of Israel itself (see above), and as follows:

Book of Ezra, Chapter 9:

Now when these things were done, the princes drew near unto me, saying: 'The people of Israel, and the priests and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, doing according to their abominations... snip... For they have taken of their daughters for themselves and for their sons; so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the peoples of the lands; yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been first in this faithlessness.'

The new state recognizes the products of mixed marriages so long as their mother was a Jew. To add insult to injury, this new state not only breaks the laws of Torah concerning land, inheritance and lawful right to same, it calls itself Israel (when it is not), and it collected Nephalim (offspring from mixed marriages) from all around the world to add to their numbers and they had the nerve to do this in Ezra's name:

Operation Ezra and Nehemiah

From 1950 to 1952, Operation Ezra and Nehemiah airlifted 120,000 Iraqi Jews to Israel via Iran and Cyprus. By 1968 only 2,000 Jews remained in Iraq. Today less than 100 Jews remain, all of whom live in Baghdad.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ezra_and_Nehemiah

I have offered these very citations to the scholars of ISI to prevent further accusations against Judaism (the religion) and I should mention that there are quite a number of Jews who do not recognize the new state that is called Israel for similar reasons. Please remember, this is MY position concerning the new state and the citations I provide are only offered to explain my reasoning for that position. Personally, I believe what they have done was enough to wake the dead.

The Ninth Scribe

Please source from the Torah and the actual Israeli law that says you can't go back to 1967 borders.

Also, we're talking political reality here so there would be broad international pressure and a large portion (polls conflict on whether its a majority or minority) of Israelis support concession.

Thanks.

 

[barney]

The Nephiliem are Giant supernatural demi-angels living in Cannan about 3000 BC.

Nephilim (nēfĭl`ĭm), in the Bible, Hebrew word of no known meaning, denoting peoples of gigantic stature with superhuman strength. The term is translated as "giants" in the Authorized Version. The Book of Genesis refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between "daughters of humans" and "sons of God."