Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Imam]

Muslims do see a similarity between Muslims who ask Muhammad (p) to send them help and Catholics who pray to saints. And they (or at least you) think that both are in error.Is that correct??

Exactly

"the prayers of that child for his Muslim parent does carry merit." For the merit is not in the prayers that the child prays, but in that the parent raised a child who does pray.

So, this passage should not be interpreted to mean that another's work can actually apply to your life, but more of an injunction as to how to live our lives -- live them in such a way that what we leave behind of ourselves after we are gone does itself work for good. And then the prophet gave some examples of how one might do that.

Would that be a fair interpretation of the passage?

Exactly....

If that is correct, how does a lawyer serve a client for whom the decision has already been rendered even before court is held? What is that advocate's purpose?

I could expect such question from someone else , not a christian

your question reminds me of an atheist reads such biblical passage


"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph. 1:4)

and then asks:
how does a savoir serve a client who has already been saved even before the world began?




If the lawyer's role is useless then the whole process of judgment is useless too and God just send everyone to his fate.......but as we see everything in logical order....

 

[MustafaMc]

OK. I can see how the hospital he built can be considered a work that he did. But should not the merit that he "earns" for it be the same whether the hospital lasts beyond his death another 20 years treating thousands of patients or for 200 years and treats millions? He did the work of establishing it and setting it up so it could continue, but whether it continues well or poorly is really not a part of his work, but the work of others who take over for him. How is it that he gets credit for those who serve to continue it? Does he also lose credit if, despite all this good work, the hospital fails because of bad management?

Where would the doctor practice his medicine if there was no hospital? Perhaps, on the street under a tent? The doctor would be credited with good deeds he did as would the builder who built the hospital would also be credited with good done in the hospital. If the hospital fails, then the builder does not lose merit that is already earned or for his intentions, rather he does not accumulate additional merit.

And while raising righteous children might be meritorious, how is it that their prayers carry merit for another?

And this last sentence I find really interesting. Do you mean that Muslims believe that a righteous Muslim can pray for another who is unrighteous and by doing so effect salvation in that person's life?

We believe that Muslims can pray to Allah for the forgiveness of the sins of deceased Muslims just as they can pay off any financial debts or meet other commitments for them. My understanding of the hadith is that, just as a person's repentance and asking for forgiveness of his own sins is a good deed, so also a righteous child's asking Allah to forgive his parent does have value for that deceased parent.

 

[MustafaMc]

To other Muslims:

Please, point out any errors in my posts.

 

[MustafaMc]

So, here is what I have gathered from this discussion. Muslims are only to call on Allah alone for help. "O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help" (Qur'an 1:5). Nevertheless...

• Muslims do ask other persons to offer prayer on their behalf.
• Muslims also offer prayers on behalf of others; this is believed to be meritorius.
• Muslims don't believe in praying to the dead, but do believe in praying for the dead.
• Muslims do expect Muhammad who is presently dead to offer dua, interceding with Allah on their behalf at the time of the resurrection.

I agree with you on these points.

• Some Muslims do take that further and actually pray to Muhammad today even though he is in the grave, but most Muslims think this practice is shirk.
• Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.

I disagree with this last statement. Those who pray TO Muhammad (saaws) are doing the same as the Catholics praying TO the deceased saints.

I also think I picked up that Muslims think that those who have died are in another dimension and that they are neither aware of nor able to respond to those of us still in this world. Is that correct?

Yes.

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed after that person's death?

Yes.

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed by the efforts of a person other than the individual themselves?

Yes.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I could expect such question from someone else , not a christian

your question reminds me of an atheist reads such biblical passage


"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph. 1:4)

and then asks:
how does a savoir serve a client who has already been saved even before the world began?

And your language reminded me of a few more passages that speak of us having an advocate with the father. But I didn't want to impose my Christian thinking on the Qur'an. So, rather than assume the answer, I asked the question.

BTW, I generally understand the Ephesians passage not to be thinking of a flow of time, but from the standpoint of God who stands outside of time having already created, observed the fall, sent Christ as a redeemer, acted to save on the cross, we in turn accepting that offer of salvation, and the final glorification as occuring all in a single moment of God's eternal now, while from a human standpoint we observe them over a process of an extended period of time.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Where would the doctor practice his medicine if there was no hospital? Perhaps, on the street under a tent? The doctor would be credited with good deeds he did as would the builder who built the hospital would also be credited with good done in the hospital. If the hospital fails, then the builder does not lose merit that is already earned or for his intentions, rather he does not accumulate additional merit.


We believe that Muslims can pray to Allah for the forgiveness of the sins of deceased Muslims just as they can pay off any financial debts or meet other commitments for them. My understanding of the hadith is that, just as a person's repentance and asking for forgiveness of his own sins is a good deed, so also a righteous child's asking Allah to forgive his parent does have value for that deceased parent.

What I hear you saying is that indeed the good work of one who follows in our footsteps and builds upon whatever good foundation we may have laid in our life can be counted as merit toward our life even after the fact.

Is that correct?


See, that is not what I am hearing Imam say. Hence my question to him:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
"the prayers of that child for his Muslim parent does carry merit." For the merit is not in the prayers that the child prays, but in that the parent raised a [righteous] child who does pray.

So, this passage should not be interpreted to mean that another's work can actually apply to your life, but more of an injunction as to how to live our lives -- live them in such a way that what we leave behind of ourselves after we are gone does itself work for good. And then the prophet gave some examples of how one might do that.

Would that be a fair interpretation of the passage?

To which he answered, "Exactly...."


Please note the portions I have highlighted as key to my understanding.
So, am I exactly wrong or exactly right in my understanding of that Hadith?

 

[YusufNoor]

So, here is what I have gathered from this discussion. Muslims are only to call on Allah alone for help. "O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help" (Qur'an 1:5). Nevertheless...

• Muslims do ask other persons to offer prayer on their behalf.
  
  other Muslims, yes...
  
  
• Muslims also offer prayers on behalf of others; this is believed to be meritorius.
  
  yes...
  
  
• Muslims don't believe in praying to the dead, but do believe in praying for the dead.
  
  we may ONLY make dua for dead MUSLIMS, we may NOT pray for dead unbelievers...
  
• Muslims do expect Muhammad who is presently dead to offer dua, interceding with Allah on their behalf at the time of the resurrection.
  
  each Prophet will be able to, Allah[swt] willing, intercede on behalf of their ummah. as i posted before, Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] will intercede on behalf of Christians as will Moses/Musa[pbuh] will do for his...
  
• Some Muslims do take that further and actually pray to Muhammad today even though he is in the grave, but most Muslims think this practice is shirk.
  
  properly it IS shirk, but many, many Muslims "speak to Muhammad ibn Abdullah[pbuh] in their prayers. probably a majority, buy it is NOT the practice of the Sahabah and therefore NOT considered part of the Sunnah, BUT this may actually be a minority view!
  
  
• Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.
  
  if i take a Catholic, or any other Christian who believes that he/she is going to heaven when they die and KILL HE or SHE, do you think that i'll be found innocent because "according to Grace Seeker", they are still alive????
  
  Allah[swt] know who EXACTLY where the dead are, we do NOT!

I also think I picked up that Muslims think that those who have died are in another dimension and that they are neither aware of nor able to respond to those of us still in this world. Is that correct?

Allah knows best...

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed after that person's death?

i believe that could be answered affirmatively!

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed by the efforts of a person other than the individual themselves?

ABSOLUTELY to the last bit. if you taught good, those who follow what you taught will earn you reward from Allah[swt] WITHOUT lessening their own reward. one who taught evil will get the punishment for it in addition the being punished for the evil that those who follow him do, WITHOUT lessening their own punishment.

 

[al.Ghurabaa']

SubhanAllah...

It goes back to the hadith:
The Prophet (saw) said:

“Whoever revives an aspect of my Sunnah that is forgotten after my death, he will have a reward equivalent to that of the people who follow him, without it detracting in the least from their reward.”

May Allah always guide us on the straight path.

Ameen.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

If that is correct, how does a lawyer serve a client for whom the decision has already been rendered even before court is held? What is that advocate's purpose?

The judge in this case is not any judge but the judge of all judges. He is the most merciful and oft forgiving. The judgememnt ultimately will be about serving justice as Allah is the most just.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The judge in this case is not any judge but the judge of all judges. He is the most merciful and oft forgiving. The judgememnt ultimately will be about serving justice as Allah is the most just.

I take that as an affirmation of what I think I am beginning to read as the majority view among Muslims of this forum, that the final disposition of one's salvation is not settled at the point of one's death. The following things can still effect it:

1. Merit points for the good things you yourself did that live on after your death.
2. Merit points that you get from the good your life influences or makes possible for others to do even after you are gone.
3. Merit points that you get because other people did meritorious things in their own right (completely independent of you) and you somehow set that sequence of events in motion before you died.
4. The possiblity that your case may be effected by the pleas others make on your behalf.
5. Direct intercession by a prophet of Allah.

I really don't get how that third one can even be considered something that can be credited toward you unless you also are willing to accept the whole concept of vicarious atonement, and that certainly isn't the way I read the verses of Qur'an and Hadith that are shared on in reference to it, but that is what I am hearing the majority of posters say when you boil it down to brass tacks. Am I hearing correctly?

Also, with regard to the fourth point, to what effect does the degree of righteousness of those who pray for you carry weight with regard to the efficacy of the pleas for mercy made on your behalf?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I almost fear to post this, for I fear it asking more questions than can be discussed at one time often leads to inadvertent and, worse, often irrelevent rabbit chases. But taking the risk anyway. I found this post in another thread.

the scholars are the inheritors of prophethood. they don't just speak on a matter without knowledge.

Could you explain what you meant by "inheritors of prophethood"?

Would not an "inheritor of prophethood" themselves be a prophet? (Just like an inheritor of a kingdom would be a king.) I thought Muhammad was supposed to be the final prophet. How can the office continue after the holder of that office is gone?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I almost fear to post this, for I fear it asking more questions than can be discussed at one time often leads to inadvertent and, worse, often irrelevent rabbit chases. But taking the risk anyway. I found this post in another thread. Could you explain what you meant by "inheritors of prophethood"?

Would not an "inheritor of prophethood" themselves be a prophet? (Just like an inheritor of a kingdom would be a king.) I thought Muhammad was supposed to be the final prophet. How can the office continue after the holder of that office is gone?

Hello Grace Seeker,

First, here is the narration in its entirety:

The Prophet sallallaahu 'alalyhi wa sallam said:

"Indeed the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and the Prophets do not leave behind them the deenaar nor the dirham as inheritance, they leave only knowledge behind as inheritance. So whosoever acquires it, acquires a huge fortune."
​

The question in the first place is incorrectly presuming that the inheritance being referred to in the narration is 'prophethood'. The correct question would have been to ask what is the 'inheritance' in the first place.

I think, after quoting the entire narration, the 'inheritance' is quite self-explanatory. The inheritance is the knowledge of the religion, not the position of Prophethood.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hello Grace Seeker,

First, here is the narration in its entirety:

The Prophet sallallaahu 'alalyhi wa sallam said:

"Indeed the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and the Prophets do not leave behind them the deenaar nor the dirham as inheritance, they leave only knowledge behind as inheritance. So whosoever acquires it, acquires a huge fortune."
​

The question in the first place is incorrectly presuming that the inheritance being referred to in the narration is 'prophethood'. The correct question would have been to ask what is the 'inheritance' in the first place.

I think, after quoting the entire narration, the 'inheritance' is quite self-explanatory. The inheritance is the knowledge of the religion, not the position of Prophethood.

I appreciate you providing the fuller narration. I provided all that the original poster had provided, which is why I had the question.

The use of the term "prophethood" is not my creation, but that of a Muslim in referring to those who interpret the ahadeeth to the Ummah, so please don't say that the question is incorrectly presuming something. The question presumes only that the above statement is unclear and confusing in light of what else I already knew about Islam. I could not ask about an inheritance, as the original poster did not refer to an inheritence, but only inheritors in his own statement, that you see quoted in full above.

But it seems that you are saying that the phraseology used by the brother, even if unintentional, alters the meaning of the actual narration???

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

.....indeed the good work of one

related info & link

Purity of Intentions

Lack of Pure Intentions




Islam does not just look at the superficial aspect of deeds irrespective of its motives.


God evaluates peoples’ deeds according to the intentions behind them.



This meaning is referred to in the Qur’an when it talks about animals which are sacrificed during the rites of pilgrimage, where it says what means:

It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him.


(Al-Hajj 22:37)

​

Another verse in the Qur’an states that it is the sincere intention behind our actions that is important, rather than the superficial or formalistic aspect:

Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth:

so serve Allah, offering Him sincere devotion. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due?

But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say):

“We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.”

Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.


(Az-Zumar 39: 2-3).
​

....Concerning charity, the Prophet also said, “There is none amongst the Muslims who plants a tree or sows seeds, and then a bird, or a person or an animal eats from it, but is regarded as a charitable gift for him” (Al-Bukhari). * Adapted from a lecture in Dr. Jamal Badawi’s Islamic Teachings series.</SPAN>



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...agename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout

 

[Grace Seeker]

Muslim Woman, I assume your post is related to the discussion about meritorious works, but you'll have to help me see its application. I understand the concept of intent; that was not in question in the above discussion.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

Could you explain what you meant by "inheritors of prophethood"?

Would not an "inheritor of prophethood" themselves be a prophet? (Just like an inheritor of a kingdom would be a king.) I thought Muhammad was supposed to be the final prophet. How can the office continue after the holder of that office is gone?

this explains it pretty well so please have a look and read it.

The scholars are inheritors of prophethood

the quoting of my post was in response to someone desregarding and being disrespectful towards scholars. The link i gave explains what is ment and gives the narration of our beloved prophet (saw)

Hope this answers your question....

 

[kay106]

Edit on request of Grace seeker himself: This thread covers significantly more issue than just music which in has been sufficiently addressed over the last several month; new posters are requested to join the thread in progress on the last page, rather then just repeating what has already been stated numerous times among the many pages of this thread.

Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.

And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)

First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?

Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.

What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?

Music appeals to emotion, emotion clouds judgements, and leads people astray. I have been told that in islam, generally, anything that clouds the mind is forbidden. please dont quote, please do verify before accepting, but it makes sense to me for example, that seeking praise, is something that clouds the mind, therefore in Islam we say AlahamDullalah Hi rabbil Alamin, all praise belongs to the creator and sustainer of the worlds.
There are many many good reasons for the prohibition of music, i just cant remember them, if i find out, i will let you know.

There is this guy called napolean who used to be part of the outlawz, a group made by 2-pac, very well known in the rap industry. He became muslim and completely gave up on music, and he said that this is a tool of the shoitan. You can see his video on,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_T70W-BJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_T70W-BJA - Yusuf Estes on Music in Islam.

I personally think that music is something, that makes you think junk, its makes people fake and it damages the soul.

The way I have approached religion is that, as long as i know that it is from the creator of the heavens and earth, I hear and obey. I know there is a good reason for whatever law it is. Islam is full of evidence, example the linguistic, scientific, and many many other miracles in the Quran, which clearly point to divine ownership.

 

[Grace Seeker]

this explains it pretty well so please have a look and read it.

The scholars are inheritors of prophethood

the quoting of my post was in response to someone desregarding and being disrespectful towards scholars. The link i gave explains what is ment and gives the narration of our beloved prophet (saw)

Hope this answers your question....

Thank-you for the link. So, from what I read you probably meant to say only that the scholars are inheritors of [the knowledge of] the Prophet, and not that they are inheritors of prophethood -- there is a significant difference. Would that be fair to your position?

 

[mkh4JC]

Music appeals to emotion, emotion clouds judgements, and leads people astray. I have been told that in islam, generally, anything that clouds the mind is forbidden. please dont quote, please do verify before accepting, but it makes sense to me for example, that seeking praise, is something that clouds the mind, therefore in Islam we say AlahamDullalah Hi rabbil Alamin, all praise belongs to the creator and sustainer of the worlds.
There are many many good reasons for the prohibition of music, i just cant remember them, if i find out, i will let you know.

There is this guy called napolean who used to be part of the outlawz, a group made by 2-pac, very well known in the rap industry. He became muslim and completely gave up on music, and he said that this is a tool of the shoitan. You can see his video on,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_T70W-BJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_T70W-BJA - Yusuf Estes on Music in Islam.

I personally think that music is something, that makes you think junk, its makes people fake and it damages the soul.

The way I have approached religion is that, as long as i know that it is from the creator of the heavens and earth, I hear and obey. I know there is a good reason for whatever law it is. Islam is full of evidence, example the linguistic, scientific, and many many other miracles in the Quran, which clearly point to divine ownership.

I'm glad this was brought up again, as I wanted to address this. Why does the Quran prohibit Muslims from listening to music when music is in fact inspired by an almighty God? Pianos, violins, trumpets, you name it, God inspired it. Music was heard in heaven long before God inspired the first human being to create an instrument. So why is this forbidden in the Quran? I can see a Muslim (or even just a Christian) not listening to musical genres like hip hop, R & B, rap music, rock n' roll, but listening to musical genres like classical or (from a Christian perspective) Gospel music that praises God seems far more than a stretch to me.

 

[mkh4JC]

^I can't edit my post. That last thought should read, 'but not listening to musical genres...'