Things in Islam I am curious about...

[MustafaMc]

I did pose a question, way back in post #788, that's how this present conversation got started.

OK

Simply observing that some practices by certain Muslims (like those Muslims who expect that angels offer dua for them or that on the day of judgment Muhammad will plead their case with Allah) and some practices of some Christians (like Catholics who pray "to" saints) don't seem all that different to me. And I was asking (if you go back) how it is that Muslims see them as so significantly different?

What I have been talking about is accepted practices of Islam and I know of no Muslim who addresses any of his prayers to angels, or to Muhammad (saaws), or to dead saints.

The responses pointed to views that it was because Muslims don't pray to dead people. To which I pointed out that those Christians who offer these sorts of prayers don't feel that they are either. Hence, the difference that was alluded to isn't actually there.

Of course, there is a difference between being alive in this world and being dead, but we agree that the soul continues to exist. The difference is that Catholics seem to believe the soul can continue to pray to God and to intercede for others. In Islam, we don't have this same concept of those who have died as being able to pray to Allah. In Islam, our records are sealed at death and after that point we can't do more good deeds, or sin.

We've been going round on our understanding of whether people are alive are not. So, my question remains:

Given that when Catholics pray "to" saints (and I've explained they aren't actually praying to them, but asking them to pray for them) how is that different than what Muslims do in expecting angles and even Muhammad to make intercession for them.

The difference is that Catholics DO pray to the saints while Muslims DO NOT pray to angels or to Muhammad (saaws). Muslims pray only to Allah, but I admit that we ask living people to make dua for us to supplement our own dua.

Now, one thing I've learned is that not all Muslims agree with the practice of those Muslims who have these expectations. Just like Fedos is an illustration that not all Christians agree with the practice of those Christians who have these expectations. So, again, at least to me, it looks like there is a great deal of similiarity between Muslims views and Christian views regarding what strike me as very similar practices. So, how come on these forums I see Muslims challenging Catholics in their practice (and some acting as if it is all Christiams), but I don't see challenges to those Muslims (identified in this thread in two different posts) who do much the same thing?

Can you PM me with the specific posts?

So, I'll just come back to the original question. Now that you see that Catholics don't see themselves as praying to the dead, but asking a still living person (though living in a different spiritual dimenion) to pray for them, what is the difference? Is it that a Muslim cannot conceive of a person actually being alive following the passing away of their physical body, and so has no context in which to understand that practice by another, is it something else, or is it really that there is no significant difference except that which one has grown accustommed to and does not question about one's own faith community, but does when seen in another?

Catholics clearly address some prayers TO other than God, Muslims address ALL prayers to none other than Allah.

 

[Imam]

The responses pointed to views that it was because Muslims don't pray to dead people. To which I pointed out that those Christians who offer these sorts of prayers don't feel that they are either.
Given that when Catholics pray "to" saints (and I've explained they aren't actually praying to them, but asking them to pray for them)

Your own mouth condemns you


one of the world's most popular so called saints (Pio)(who been accused by the people around him including (Pope John XXIII )of immoral attitude towards women - claims that he had intercourse with women in the confessional; misuse of funds, and deception - claims that the stigmata were induced with acid in order to gain fame, and that the reported odor of sanctity around him being the result of self-administered eau-de-cologne


A sample of the hundred of thousands prayers been sent just in one month (April 2008) ,in Padre Pio Prayer Groups:



Padre Pio,
Please take pity on my family and send us your help. My son turned 6 on the 12th of february 2008, unfortunately this was not a day of joy for us as he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. The results showed that he has a very aggressive type of brain cancer.



Saint Pio
I beg and pray to you from the heart please to forgive me, to help me to guide me, and to help me turn my life around.


St Padre Pio
A very close friend of our gave us some oil that is a relic from St Padre Pio. It had a short story of his life and a prayer we could pray to him. We used the oil and said some prayers over him today.

Dear St Padre Pio,
I Pray for the recovery of my 8 year old grandson. He has a unknown blood disorder and is very sick. So far, nothing has worked medically. No medicines, no treatments. We are so afraid we are going to lose him. We love him dearly. In your mercy, please help us. I am asking for a miracle, please heal him


Dear Father Pio,
Please send healing: Thanks you Father Pio for hearing all my prayers and giving us mercy. Thank you for your guidance from day to day night to night.
I love you, Patricia


Dearest Padre Pio,
Once again I need your help. Please let me be accepted for the job for which I am applying. The money would mean so much to my family.


Please pray to St. Pio that my husband makes a full recovery from a heart infection and that his uncontrollable swelling goes away immediately.


Saint Padre Pio, protect us, protect our priests, protect the Church!




The Holy Glorious Quran highlighted such awful act of blasphemy :




9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God.

7:190 But as soon as He grants them a sound baby, they begin to ascribe to other powers beside Him a share in bringing about what He has granted them. Exalted is He, High Above all that they associate with Him.


7:191 Do they ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

7:192 And they cannot help them, nor can they help themselves.

34:22 Say, “Call upon those whom you imagine beside Allah! They have not an atom’s weight of power either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor does He need any of them as a helper.”

7:194 Those whom you call upon besides Allah, [such as mystics and saints], are people like you. Go ahead and call upon them, let them respond by helping you if you are true in your belief.

7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.

Catholics don't see themselves as praying to the dead, but asking a still living person (though living in a different spiritual dimenion) ..

But Who knows what kind of spritual dimension they live, they may be living in the dimension where curse is waiting them

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? And in Thy Name have cast out devils? And in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

[/QUOTE]

 

[Grace Seeker]

"My own mouth condemns me," condemns me of what?


There are, as you point out, hundreds of thousands of prayers offered by Christians that do not conform to Christian orthodoxy. Are there not the same concerns within the Ummah? I see thousands (perhaps millions) of both Christians and Muslims who ascribe to one thing with their words and quite another with their practice. By which shall we determine what is in fact true of either religion?

You may indeed truly point to such prayers that are offered by people who practice their faith without fully considering what it is that are the implications of such faith. I was asking how this practice, so despised by Muslims when observed in Christian practice is not similar chided when the same basic thing (at least as I perceive it) is similarly practiced by Muslims (examples of which have already been cited in this thread)?


Further, with regard to the suggestions that my perception of said Muslim behavior is not entirely accurate, I offered the same critique of the Christian behavior you so well gave evidence of as like wise being a misperception of what is actually occuring -- though I grant that the way such prayers are worded is done very poorly. I contend that if one were to ask those who have offered these prayers to truly stop and think about what they were doing and to whom they were praying that they would, in fact, recognize the imprecision of their language and alter it to reflect a better understanding. (Perhaps not all would recognize the error in their way of speaking, but I believe the vast majority of them would.) Likewise, the same exists within Islam (and I suppose every other religion which is practiced by men and women). So, I do try not to judge Islam based on the actions of not just a few but many who say one thing but live quite contrary lives, and try to seek to understand it when practiced as its ideal. I ask of you the same with respect to Christianity.

Nevertheless, I understand if such behavior raises questions as to what it is that Christians truly believe, for what we believe does (or at least should) impact and be implicit in one's behavior. Praying to saints as a practice is not indicative of Christianity any more than the belief that Muhammad will intercede for Muslim believers is core to Islamic faith. Each of us puts our faith in God, not a human being, not even the best examples of humans.

As you closed with a few references from the Qur'an to how Muslims perceive the Christian faith, allow me to share a few verses from the Bible as to how we understand it for ourselves:

From whom is our help?
Our help is in the name of the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.
(Psalm 124:8)

"So we say with confidence, 'The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?' " (Hebrews 13:6)

So you see, though some may mistakenly practice something that comes heretically close to such behavior, it is not biblice to pray to men (or women), but only to look to God for help. And it is in that context that I would ask you to then understand in the following passages that we are doing just that, look not to some partner that God has, but to God himself when we pray to either Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Romans 8:26)

"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

 

[Imam]

"


Praying to saints as a practice is not indicative of Christianity any more than the belief that Muhammad will intercede for Muslim believers is core to Islamic faith. Each of us puts our faith in God, not a human being, not even the best examples of humans.

YOU TRY TO COMPARE THE chalk with the cheese


a huge difference between those Muslims who expect that on the day of judgment Muhammad will plead their case with Allah (Shafa'at),and those christians who pray to saints:



No muslim ever prays to Mohamed (peace be upon him) to forgive him,send him mercy , healing ,protection



any Muslim do that , and knows well that The Quran calls that a blasphemy,he,she would be surely (Mushrik) out of Islam....


Quran 4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners(.Idols,abbis, priests and monks,prophets,kings) should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.



while the examples I gave you prove without any reasonable doubt that millions of catholics believe that the dead ,so called Saints could

send mercy,forgive , do miracles , protect humans .

it is not a matter of misusing the vocabulary,it is just what they believe in the heart ,mind expressed clearly by the tongue......


this link will give you a basic hint of what is shirk (taking partners with God means according to the Quran)


http://quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htm

"
I contend that if one were to ask those who have offered these prayers to truly stop and think about what they were doing and to whom they were praying that they would, in fact, recognize the imprecision of their language and alter it to reflect a better understanding.

It would be great if you advise them not to take such saints ,who cannot help them, nor can they help themselves. to be their Lords* besides God,by asking them to send mercy and protections and do miracles etcc....

and it would be wise to advise yourself too ,not to take Jesus who can do nothing of himself ,

"I (Jesus)can do nothing on Myself. " (John 5:30). as a partner by including him in your prayer and send your prayer directly to the one who do all by himself (God) alone......

"we are doing just that, look not to some partner that God has, but to God himself when we pray to either Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Seeker just don't be absured ,

to whom such infamous ,common prayer ?


"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"


obviously you ask Jesus not the Father(God) for mercy,protection etc...

or at least including him in a process ,noone of his business....

The Glorious Quran:

3:64 Say, “O People of the Book! Let us come to a mutual agreement, that we shall worship and obey none but God. That neither shall we ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him, nor shall we take human beings from among ourselves as our lords beside God.” And if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him.”


3:80 Nor would he instruct you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords and patrons. Would he command you to disbelieve after you have surrendered to Allah?


9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God. There is no god but He. Praise and Glory to Him

 

[Grace Seeker]

YOU TRY TO COMPARE THE chalk with the cheese

Don't know that proverb, but on some of the rest of what you wrote you may have more of a point that I have been willing to admit.

While I know that the Catholic Church does not actually teach the practice of praying to saints, I decide to investigate what I would find on a Catholic forum where I knew this had been discussed. I was surprised with some of the answers I read from the laity there. In response to the question: Whose prayer is more powerful? 79.3% said Jesus, meaning that more than 20% said something/someone else. Granted some did say the Holy Spirit, and while you may not grant it, for us who are Christians this is synonymous with saying God. But I was sad to see that there were many who mentioned Mary or some saint.

Of course, in their defense the question as asked is about the prayer, not the one prayed to; thus, a Muslim who responded to the poll claimed that the prayers of prophets are the most powerful.

Since you specifically brought up Saint Padre Pio, here is what one Catholic layperson said about prayer:

I dare say the prayer of a saint is more heeded than a sinner's, depending on what's prayed for. If Saint Padre Pio prayed for you to get well from a disease, for example, you'd have a better chance, wouldn't you?

I think that pretty well represents those whose prayers you have posted. They have a belief that such a person's prayer is stronger than their own, so while it sounds like they are praying to Pio, they are really just soliciting him to pray for them.

And given that, I confess I still don't see a significant difference between that and what you mention when you say:

a huge difference between those Muslims who expect that on the day of judgment Muhammad will plead their case with Allah (Shafa'at),and those christians who pray to saints:

But, I asked for your opinion, and I'll just have to respect that you and other Muslims do see a difference, even if I don't understand it. Sincerely, thanks for investing more time in this discussion than it was probably worth.

 

[Imam]

I decide to investigate what I would find on a Catholic forum where I knew this had been discussed. I was surprised with some of the answers I read from the laity there. In response to the question: Whose prayer is more powerful? 79.3% said Jesus, meaning that more than 20% said something/someone else. Granted some did say the Holy Spirit, and while you may not grant it, for us who are Christians this is synonymous with saying God.

Surely I can't grant it

If the the question: Whose prayer is more powerful? and Jesus,holy spirit
are synonymous with saying God.

then the question and the answers according to you:


Whose prayer is more powerful?

the prayer of Jesus(synonymous with God) to God 79.3%
the Holy Spirit (synonymous with God) to God 20%

in other words the best prayer to God is when God prayes to himslef !!!!!!!

and this is exactly what Satan did with christians ,



he urged and convinced some that Jesus has the power to control the universe by sending help,mercy,miracles etc

he convinced others that the holy spirit prayer
is stronger


others Mary or some saint are stronger


in other words no one pray directly to God , all what the prayer could do is to ask the dead to pray for him,her .....

I think that pretty well represents those whose prayers you have posted. They have a belief that such a person's prayer is stronger than their own, so while it sounds like they are praying to Pio, they are really just soliciting him to pray for them.

Seeker why don't you believe them?

there is nothing in their prayer about soliciting Jesus or Pio to pray for them........



"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"


Padre Pio,
Please take pity on my family and send us your help.



Saint Pio
I beg and pray to you from the heart please to forgive me, to help me to guide me, and to help me turn my life around.




Dear St Padre Pio,
In your mercy, please help us. I am asking for a miracle, please heal him


Dear Father Pio,
Please send healing: Thanks you Father Pio for hearing all my prayers and giving us mercy. Thank you for your guidance from day to day night to night.

I love you, Patricia



There would be nothing clearer than that.......

 

[Grace Seeker]

Seeker why don't you believe them?

I do. I believe what others just like those you have quoted have said when I have called them on exactly what you have said below:

there is nothing in their prayer about soliciting Jesus or Pio to pray for them........

And on those occassions they have clarified just what I have already said, that they really aren't praying to the saints as if the saint personally had power to effect anything, but asking that the saints (who they see as in a stronger position to offer prayers than they are) would offer up these prayers on their behalf. So, even if they haven't verbalized it, that is in fact what they really meant.


But again, I understand that you don't see this as being similar to Islamic expectations that Muhammad will interceded for Muslims on the day of judgment. And that is all that I was asking about when this discussion began.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

No muslim ever prays to Mohamed (peace be upon him) ........

Muslims don't make photo / staute of Prophet Muhammed (p) . If we were allowed to do that , I am afraied , many Muslims would have started bowing down in front of statue of the Prophet (p).

May the God Almighty protect all the believers from shirk.


Grace Seeker : ...Each of us puts our faith in God, not a human being, not even the best examples of humans



"A Common Word Between Us and You,"

Muslim-Christian Common Word in Yale



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...08115306&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout


a related verse posted by bro Imam

The Glorious Quran:

3:64 Say, “O People of the Book! Let us come to a mutual agreement, that we shall worship and obey none but God.


That neither shall we ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him, nor shall we take human beings from among ourselves as our lords beside God.” And if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him.”

 

[MustafaMc]

Both Imam and Muslim Woman have put forth completely logical arguments that there is a clear and distinct difference between the Catholics praying to dead saints and Muslims praying to Allah for Him to grant Muhammad (saaws) the privilege or station of intercession on Judgment Day. Muslims pray to and worship none other than Allah. Quran 1:5 O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help.

Please, notice the distinction even between Catholics (C) and Protestants (P):

C pray to the Father, Jesus, Mary and the saints while P pray to the Father or Jesus and never to Mary or to the saints.

C have the body of Jesus on the crucifix in their churches and homes or as a pendant around their necks while the P crucifix is a plain cross.

C have statues or pictures of Mary (the Madonna) in their churches and homes while P do not.

C have confession of sin to a priest where they state to the priest, "Father forgive me for I have sinned" while P do not have confession to a priest.

It seems to me that even the Protestant reformers recognized some of the same errors in Catholicism that we Muslims do.

In Islam, praying to someone other than Allah is shirk and as Muslim Woman has pointed out, the Islamic prohibition against images and statues of people and animals is a protection against worshiping them.

A hadith illustrates the distinction between asking a living person to pray for one instead of a dead person even though the dead person is closer to Alllah. Bukhari 2:123 Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

 

[YusufNoor]

I do. I believe what others just like those you have quoted have said when I have called them on exactly what you have said below:



And on those occassions they have clarified just what I have already said, that they really aren't praying to the saints as if the saint personally had power to effect anything, but asking that the saints (who they see as in a stronger position to offer prayers than they are) would offer up these prayers on their behalf. So, even if they haven't verbalized it, that is in fact what they really meant.


But again, I understand that you don't see this as being similar to Islamic expectations that Muhammad will interceded for Muslims on the day of judgment. And that is all that I was asking about when this discussion began.

forgive me for butting in here but,

I understand that you don't see this as being similar to Islamic expectations that Muhammad will interceded for Muslims on the day of judgment. And that is all that I was asking about when this discussion began

the Islamic position consists of Muhammad[pbuh] interceding for us AFTER he has been resurrected, hence he[pbuh] would be alive! it is not correct to pray to/and or ask someone to pray for you AFTER they have exited this mortal coil. asking, even the Prophets[pbut] to "intercede" AFTER they have died would be shirk.

i DO wonder why, even though you say you don't [excepting Jesus/Isa[pbuh] :blind:], the Muslim position of "asking/speaking/requesting/repeating prose" DIRECTLY TO a deceased person is NOT considered "praying to someone!"

i an attempt to clarify, let me quote MustafaMc, from the Fatiha, :

Quran 1:5 O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help.

for us, "calling on someone for help" is du'a, or as you would call it prayer, thus, if i ask MustafaMc to "pray for me", it's OK as he can see me ask; but to ask someone who is no longer "with us in this dimension", it is shirk.

is that clear?

btw, there is a nic du'a that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] makes for the Christians on Qiyama in the Qur'an:

5:16 Sahih International: And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

5:17 Sahih International: I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness

5:18 Sahih International: If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.


Shaykh Imran Hosein explained that as Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] asking Allah[swt] to forgive the Christians for associating partners with Him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, here is what I have gathered from this discussion. Muslims are only to call on Allah alone for help. "O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help" (Qur'an 1:5). Nevertheless...

• Muslims do ask other persons to offer prayer on their behalf.
• Muslims also offer prayers on behalf of others; this is believed to be meritorius.
• Muslims don't believe in praying to the dead, but do believe in praying for the dead.
• Muslims do expect Muhammad who is presently dead to offer dua, interceding with Allah on their behalf at the time of the resurrection.
• Some Muslims do take that further and actually pray to Muhammad today even though he is in the grave, but most Muslims think this practice is shirk.
• Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.

I also think I picked up that Muslims think that those who have died are in another dimension and that they are neither aware of nor able to respond to those of us still in this world. Is that correct?



Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed after that person's death?

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed by the efforts of a person other than the individual themselves?

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

thought this would be relevant... its not so much how a person will be judged but it contains how good deeds can still be written for someone after they have died.

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed by the efforts of a person other than the individual themselves?

Abu Qataadah rahimahullaah reported that Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "The best that a man can leave behind after his death are three things: a righteous child who makes du'aa for him, an ongoing sadaqah (charity)whose rewards continue to reach him, and a knowledge that continues to be implemented after him." (Ibn Maajah, and others)

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

..."The best that a man can leave behind after his death ....

related info :


Benefitting the Dead

Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips

Du'aa


In Chapter al-Hashr (59):10, Allaah praises the believers who pray for those who have passed away before their time.​

"And​

those who came after them say: Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith, and do not put in our hearts any hatred against the believers. Our Lord, You are indeed full of kindness, Most Merciful."​

The Charity of Children

Parents will benefit from whatever righteous deeds their children do, without decreasing the reward of their children's good deeds.

A righteous child is considered to be part of the parent's earnings.

Furthermore, the funeral prayer itself consists mostly of prayers for the dead.


...."When a man dies, his acts come to an end, except in three cases: an ongoing charity, knowledge from which people continue to benefit, and a righteous child who prays for him."


[Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p.867, no. 4005, and Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 2, p.812, no.2874]

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=246​

 

[Grace Seeker]

Parents will benefit from whatever righteous deeds their children do, without decreasing the reward of their children's good deeds.

A righteous child is considered to be part of the parent's earnings.

So, the works of one person can be applied to the righeousness of another person, yet Muslims reject the idea of a vicarious atonement. (Or so I have been told. Perhaps incorrectly???)


I see a disconnect in those two concepts, can some one please make sense of that for me?

 

[Imam]

So, here is what I have gathered from this discussion. Muslims are only to call on Allah alone for help. "O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help" (Qur'an 1:5). Nevertheless...

• Muslims do ask other persons to offer prayer on their behalf.
• Muslims also offer prayers on behalf of others; this is believed to be meritorius.
• Muslims don't believe in praying to the dead, but do believe in praying for the dead.
• Muslims do expect Muhammad who is presently dead to offer dua, interceding with Allah on their behalf at the time of the resurrection.
• Some Muslims do take that further and actually pray to Muhammad today even though he is in the grave, but most Muslims think this practice is shirk.
• Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.

Seeker ,putting the word living in heaven (for the saints) in bold ,showed your double talk !!!

Don't you believe that spirits (whether of believers or non believers)never die?

I think you agree to that...


If so ,you erred claiming Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice (pray to Muhammad today)and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.

or you want to say that Mohamed (peace be upon him) is buried with his spirit in the tomb,and only the spirits of the saints are allowed to let their bodies and live in heaven?!!!!!!


the similarty is very clear:


- Catholics who ask saints,who already dead physically (though living in heaven) to send them help.

- Mushriks who ask Mohamed (peace be upon him) who already dead physically (though living in heaven) to send them help .

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed after that person's death?

Nothing predestined to be changed,just there will be a qualified lawyer (shafi3) for some people (who are qualified too) during the process of judgment..

Do Muslims believe that the issues regarding how a person will be judged by Allah can be changed by the efforts of a person other than the individual themselves?

(who is destined to paradise will be there,and who is destined to hell will be there too).

but will the lawyer (shafi3) change such rule and urge God to change his mind?


absolutely not...


All what the Quran says is that ,some sinful believers (who are destined to be in Paradise) will seek a truthful lawyer to show their case (they were sinful without repentence),but seeking mercy.......


Will the the process of intercession change their destiny?

absolutely not ...

it is just a way Allah bring happiness to some sinners ,and how he is merciful...


But Can't Allah without such lawyers tell them that he forgave them?

yes ,sure

but when a sinner(s) (who deserves mercy) feels that his great lawyer (Mohamed ,peace be upon him) was affectionate with them ,
and prayed for Allah for their case ,such person(s) will feel much grateful to the prophet peace be upon him.

in sum and substance



intercession never change what is predestined,it is simply a part of the process of judgment which includes justice and mercy as well...



Peace for all

 

[MustafaMc]

So, the works of one person can be applied to the righeousness of another person, yet Muslims reject the idea of a vicarious atonement. (Or so I have been told. Perhaps incorrectly???)


I see a disconnect in those two concepts, can some one please make sense of that for me?

What continues to earn merit after a person's death are the deeds or acts that he did while he was living that continue to have an effect. For example, if someone built a hospital then each person that is healed from being treated at that hospital is a good deed to that builder's credit even after he has died. Likewise if a parent raised his child as a righteous Muslim, then the prayers of that child for his Muslim parent does carry merit. Perchance the child was more righteous than the parent and the child also prayed to Allah for the forgiveness of his parent.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Seeker ,putting the word living in heaven (for the saints) in bold ,showed your double talk !!!

There is no double talk. I'm not making an accusation (or at least not trying to, sorry if it comes off that way. I can understand why it mightl; I feel that way too sometimes in the "Asking Questions of Christians" thread). I'm merely asking questions, restating what I have understood others to say, and then trying to analyze what the implications are of what has been said all in an effort to better understand.

Don't you believe that spirits (whether of believers or non believers)never die?

I think you agree to that...


If so ,you erred claiming Muslims still do not think there is any similarity between this latter practice (pray to Muhammad today)and that of Catholics who ask saints already living (not dead) in heaven to pray for them.

or you want to say that Mohamed (peace be upon him) is buried with his spirit in the tomb,and only the spirits of the saints are allowed to let their bodies and live in heaven?!!!!!!


the similarty is very clear:


- Catholics who ask saints,who already dead physically (though living in heaven) to send them help.

- Mushriks who ask Mohamed (peace be upon him) who already dead physically (though living in heaven) to send them help .

So, what you are saying is that I am wrong in suggesting that Muslims do not see the similarity. Muslims do see a similarity between Muslims who ask Muhammad (p) to send them help and Catholics who pray to saints. And they (or at least you) think that both are in error.

Is that correct??

Nothing to be changed,just there will be a qualified lawyer (shafi3) for some people (who are qualified too) during the process of judgment..

(who is destined to paradise will be there,and who is destined to hell will be there too).

but will the lawyer (shafi3) change such rule and urge God to change his mind?


absolutely not...


All what the Quran says is that ,some sinful believers (who are destined to be in Paradise) will seek a truthful lawyer to show their case (they were sinful without repentence),but seeking mercy.......


Will the the process of intercession change their destiny?

absolutely not ...

it is just a way Allah bring happiness to some sinners ,and how he is merciful...


But Can't Allah without such lawyers tell them that he forgave them?

yes ,sure

but when a sinner(s) (who deserves mercy) feels that his great lawyer (Mohamed ,peace be upon him) was affectionate with them ,
and prayed for Allah for their case ,such person(s) will feel much grateful to the prophet peace be upon him.

in sum and sustance



intercession never change what is predestined,it is simply a part of the process of judgment which includes justice and mercy as well...



Peace for all

And restating in my own words just so I be sure I understood you correctly.

Though Muslims pray for the dead and make dua for them, these prayers are not really effectual in terms of their salvation. Allah is going to do what Allah is going to do regardless. He is not moved, nor is is mind changed by the prayers of the living for the dead.

All that the prayers are for is the ask someone (Muhammad I presume??) to serve as an advocate on the deceased person's behalf before Allah at the time his/her life is judged.

If that is correct, how does a lawyer serve a client for whom the decision has already been rendered even before court is held? What is that advocate's purpose?

 

[Grace Seeker]

What continues to earn merit after a person's death are the deeds or acts that he did while he was living that continue to have an effect. For example, if someone built a hospital then each person that is healed from being treated at that hospital is a good deed to that builder's credit even after he has died. Likewise if a parent raised his child as a righteous Muslim, then the prayers of that child for his Muslim parent does carry merit. Perchance the child was more righteous than the parent and the child also prayed to Allah for the forgiveness of his parent.

OK. I can see how the hospital he built can be considered a work that he did. But should not the merit that he "earns" for it be the same whether the hospital lasts beyond his death another 20 years treating thousands of patients or for 200 years and treats millions? He did the work of establishing it and setting it up so it could continue, but whether it continues well or poorly is really not a part of his work, but the work of others who take over for him. How is it that he gets credit for those who serve to continue it? Does he also lose credit if, despite all this good work, the hospital fails because of bad management?

And while raising righteous children might be meritorious, how is it that their prayers carry merit for another?

And this last sentence I find really interesting:

Perchance the child was more righteous than the parent and the child also prayed to Allah for the forgiveness of his parent.

Do you mean that Muslims believe that a righteous Muslim can pray for another who is unrighteous and by doing so effect salvation in that person's life?

 

[Imam]

So, the works of one person can be applied to the righeousness of another person, yet Muslims reject the idea of a vicarious atonement. (Or so I have been told. Perhaps incorrectly???)


I see a disconnect in those two concepts, can some one please make sense of that for me?

The hadith mentions nothing about the works of one person can be applied to the righeousness of another person..


...."When a man dies, his (good) acts come to an end, except in three cases: an ongoing charity(initiated by him), knowledge (belongs to him) from which people continue to benefit, and a righteous child (his son) who prays for him."

the Hadith is talking about 3 good things belongs to the person who died:


1- the ongoing charity from his money that continued after his death.

2-the knowledge he (wrote,said etc) from which people continue to benefit.

3- a good words from the mouth of his son(s) wishing that Allah may reward his righteuous father who brought him up as a righteuos person.


in others words

the person will continue to benefit of the 3 things he(himself) caused.....(knowledge,charity.righteous son)

 

[Grace Seeker]

The hadith mentions nothing about the works of one person can be applied to the righeousness of another person..

So then I take it you disagree with Muslim Woman's assessment:

Parents will benefit from whatever righteous deeds their children do.

...."When a man dies, his (good) acts come to an end, except in three cases: an ongoing charity(initiated by him), knowledge (belongs to him) from which people continue to benefit, and a righteous child (his son) who prays for him."

the Hadith is talking about 3 good things belongs to the person who died:


1- the ongoing charity from his money that continued after his death.

2-the knowledge he (wrote,said etc) from which people continue to benefit.

3- a good words from the mouth of his son(s) wishing that Allah may reward his righteuous father who brought him up as a righteuos person.


in others words

the person will continue to benefit of the 3 things he(himself) caused.....(knowledge,charity.righteous son)

And while these are things that continue after a person's death, they are also all the results of things the person did themselves while alive. That seems to me less active than what MustafaMc said that "the prayers of that child for his Muslim parent does carry merit." For the merit is not in the prayers that the child prays, but in that the parent raised a child who does pray.

So, this passage should not be interpreted to mean that another's work can actually apply to your life, but more of an injunction as to how to live our lives -- live them in such a way that what we leave behind of ourselves after we are gone does itself work for good. And then the prophet gave some examples of how one might do that.

Would that be a fair interpretation of the passage?