Female honey bee? Arabic word?

[Whatsthepoint]

The problem is you think of 'belly' by itself as fem or masc. when fay already explained to you, it is the one who possesses the belly that is engendered, in Arabic you can combine two words in one so instead of me saying (she ate) as an example. I can say (akalat), the eating isn't fem. or masc., but the implication is the one who ate is female..

do you understand?

I suspected that's what you were trying to say by feminine singular.
I think I get it now. The belly is not engendered, however the possesive pronoun is, I thought that all along (except that I thought belly was masculine).
What bothered me is the terminology. In most languages a belly belonging to a woman is still a belly, the gender doesn't change, so your saying bootoniha is plural feminine confused me.

Well, we still haven't concluded /though we could..) whether the bee is feminine singular or genderless plural and that's all that matters with this alleged miracle.

 

[Faye]

You should actually start a section here if you have the time to teach folks basic Arabic grammar and rules and in the process I think would cement what you also know, sometimes dear brs and srs here approach me by PM for translation of some passages which might be beneficial to one but not all, I really think a section as such would be of great benefit.. I unfortunately don't have the time to expend that I would like to in order to have ikhlas in teaching because of my other obligations.. I seem to lose patience fast with anything that requires more of me than what I personally think it is worth..

So every day you can have a section of jama3 aljam3, or jama3 mo;anath, or things that can be used both in masc and fem, different verbs, affiriming a verb by using a verb.. I don't think most people appreciate how rich a language Arabic is or how difficult its basic grammar...

And may Allah reward you for your efforts..

p.s
pls know it is just a suggestion.. I myself hate being trapped into projects where folks oblige me for a prolonged period.. so it is only if you are interested..

I will think about it, but just a lecture in grammar is insufficient. You need to practice it to be able to remember it when you need it.

And teaching is hard.

 

[جوري]

I suspected that's what you were trying to say by feminine singular.
I think I get it now. The belly is not engendered, however the possesive pronoun is, I thought that all along (except that I thought belly was masculine).
What bothered me is the terminology. In most languages a belly belonging to a woman is still a belly, the gender doesn't change, so your saying bootoniha is plural feminine confused me.

Well, we still haven't concluded /though we could..) whether the bee is feminine singular or genderless plural and that's all that matters with this alleged miracle.

I think if you'll focus on a word you'll miss the whole point of the verse, aside from in whose belly the honey is produced, just looking at the whole chemistry and engineering behind it, is the actual miracle, which is what the Quran generally asks you to do.. look at the mathematical shape behind the hive

the differences in color a result of the different flowers

its useages in healing people, and ability to fight deadly disease

honey is showing potential against deadly hospital super bugs like MRSA
Honey may take the sting out of the NHS superbugs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-148447/Honey-sting-NHS-superbugs.html
http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/n...s/immunity/manuka-honey-super-bugs-00622.html

etc etc.. the verse is full of miracles in essence asking you to reflect on the whole package if you are going to fixate on one thing, you'll have missed the whole point, and in general I find this to be true of most atheists on board...

To understand science is to find God!

peace

 

[جوري]

I will think about it, but just a lecture in grammar is insufficient. You need to practice it to be able to remember it when you need it.

And teaching is hard.

true and doubly true for the latter, I think I'd be a very abusive teacher, I don't have alot of patience especially when I just don't understand how someone can't get it? I feel like they are faking it or something just to annoy me........

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Honeybees and honey are truly amazing and may imply a creator or something, but that is not the point here.
The verse itself, if it doesn't say the honey-producing honeybees are female, isn't miraculous. The healing properties of honey have been know to man a long time before Islam, so were the different colors.
Even if the verse is not miraculous (which I believe it isn't), it is still nice (to muslims probably even more so) and very useful.

 

[Faye]

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

The ha is the posessive pronoun. Without it, it would be Butoon, simply meaning bellies.

Bellies are it by meaning but by conjugation, I would say feminine singular (beacause it is plural of non-intelligent, non-animate). Still, this has no bearing on the discussion.

 

[جوري]

Honeybees and honey are truly amazing and may imply a creator or something, but that is not the point here.
The verse itself, if it doesn't say the honey-producing honeybees are female, isn't miraculous. The healing properties of honey have been know to man a long time before Islam, so were the different colors.
Even if the verse is not miraculous (which I believe it isn't), it is still nice (to muslims probably even more so) and very useful.

that is the thing.. if you get it, it is very profound, and if you don't.. you'll pass it off as any other text..

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

that is the thing.. if you get it, it is very profound, and if you don't.. you'll pass it off as any other text..

peace

Well, Religious people probably have a bias for their religion's texts. You may find all Quranic verse deep, profound etc and think this is an objective fact, though it probybla isn't (but it may be). Christians find bible the same, Hindus feel the same about Vedas...
I believe every religious text has its share of interesting verses or chapters, however presently I don't think any of them comes from god.

 

[جوري]

Well, Religious people probably have a bias for their religion's texts. You may find all Quranic verse deep, profound etc and think this is an objective fact, though it probybla isn't (but it may be). Christians find bible the same, Hindus feel the same about Vedas...
I believe every religious text has its share of interesting verses or chapters, however presently I don't think any of them comes from god.

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

I said maybe, I always do. Maybe that's why you think I use some kind of psychological interrogation method.:-[
Yeah, you never know, that's why I am neither a theist nor an atheist.
But I don't like it when religious people (muslims and everyone else) use their religious texts and claim they're scientifically miraculous. I can admit some of so called miracles are interesting or inexplicable, but some are rubbish and I want to expose that rubbish.

 

[Faye]

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

I know I have a bias. When it finally comes down to it, my belief in Islam is not based on reading or research, though those do help to strengthen it.

 

[جوري]

I said maybe, I always do. Maybe that's why you think I use some kind of psychological interrogation method.:-[
Yeah, you never know, that's why I am neither a theist nor an atheist.
But I don't like it when religious people (muslims and everyone else) use their religious texts and claim they're scientifically miraculous. I can admit some of so called miracles are interesting or inexplicable, but some are rubbish and I want to expose that rubbish.

But do you see how you are inept at best at exposing 'rubbish' I mean simple explanations escape you that you have to protract a reply for pages...also, it is only a psychological interrogation if the other party isn't aware of it, not when the other party is annoyed by it!

Also what exactly are your expectations of forums, when you visit a forum dealing with quantum physics surely you don't expect a recipe for homemade apple pie?
Like wise on an Islamic forum, folks will be discussing all sorts of Islamic topics of relevance and no relevance..

It is best to listen and read more than draw half-arsed conclusions and protract them...

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

But do you see how you are inept at best at exposing 'rubbish' I mean simple explanations escape you that you have to protract a reply for pages...also, it is only a psychological interrogation if the other party isn't aware of it, not when the other party is annoyed by it!
It is best to listen and read more than draw half-arsed conclusions and protract them...

peace

Well, you confused me a great deal, not intentionally I guess. It was all clear till you came, but in the end the the facts are the same as they were on page one.
I don't thing we're compatible when it comes to debating.
I'm not really relevant to expose this particular piece of rubbish as I don't speak Arabic. But Faye is and she did a great job IMO.

 

[جوري]

I know I have a bias. When it finally comes down to it, my belief in Islam is not based on reading or research, though those do help to strengthen it.

we all arrive to Allah swt differently.. If I told you some of the stories of the converts I know, you'd not think this reason or that would not be particularly something that moves you, but I believe the Quran addresses all people to their levels and on multiple grounds.

One guy who was a former spanish ambassador was on board a travel yacht, where an egyptian captain simply had a discussion with him about constellations and their mention in the Quran and the man embraced Islam, and the captain married his daughter who incidentally died in 2004, she herself hadn't embraced Islam until much later for reasons entirely different... It doesn't matter how one arrives to the truth, so long as they get there before it is too late..

for me personally and after a prolonged period where I didn't practice or live at all as a Muslim, through my courses of study I couldn't imagine such intricate processes in the human body, in nature in the universe, not having a designer one book in particular interest to me by a Scottish embryologist D'Arcy Thompson called On Growth and Form though not apart of my curriculum was so incredibly profound, in and of itself would annihilate any doubt that science can be a sterile tool divorced from God. Anyhow, shortly afte I concluded God exists! I had to make up my mind what he wants from us, and why we are here, I had to research which religion was right for me, and I am really glad I did that... I am not saying that is the route everyone should goeth.. but it saves me so much of the agony of uncertainty.. I maynot be able to convince someone like the cool cat of my research and analysis, but I believe finding God is ultimately a solo journey !

 

[Faye]

:bump:

we all arrive to Allah swt differently.. If I told you some of the stories of the converts I know, you'd not think this reason or that would not be particularly something that moves you, but I believe the Quran addresses all people to their levels and on multiple grounds.

One guy who was a former spanish ambassador was on board a travel yacht, where an egyptian captain simply had a discussion with him about constellations and their mention in the Quran and the man embraced Islam, and the captain married his daughter who incidentally died in 2004, she herself hadn't embraced Islam until much later for reasons entirely different... It doesn't matter how one arrives to the truth, so long as they get there before it is too late..

for me personally and after a prolonged period where I didn't practice or live at all as a Muslim, through my courses of study I couldn't imagine such intricate processes in the human body, in nature in the universe, not having a designer one book in particular interest to me by a Scottish embryologist D'Arcy Thompson called On Growth and Form though not apart of my curriculum was so incredibly profound, in and of itself would annihilate any doubt that science can be a sterile tool divorced from God. Anyhow, shortly afte I concluded God exists! I had to make up my mind what he wants from us, and why we are here, I had to research which religion was right for me, and I am really glad I did that... I am not saying that is the route everyone should goeth.. but it saves me so much of the agony of uncertainty.. I maynot be able to convince someone like the cool cat of my research and analysis, but I believe finding God is ultimately a solo journey !

Very true.

 

[kay106]

Well, you confused me a great deal, not intentionally I guess. It was all clear till you came, but in the end the the facts are the same as they were on page one.
I don't thing we're compatible when it comes to debating.
I'm not really relevant to expose this particular piece of rubbish as I don't speak Arabic. But Faye is and she did a great job IMO.

u need to be careful what you call a piece of rubbish, Stop being so stubborn!

You and faye, what you both dont understand is that noun and a verb is different. it is true that for a non intelligent noun, plurals are treated as femanine singluars, but what you cant comprehend, with your biased thickhead is that a verb and a noun is different! verb means an action e.g. eat, build, follow, watch, to write, drink. A noun is a person, place or a thing. e.g. man, woman, cat, dog, truth, beauty, belly, Austria. In other word, a word which names something, or Names of objects and concepts. Go to google and type Define: Verb or define:noun.

faslukee (follow), kulee (eat), and attakhizeea are femanine verbs indicating that the action is carried out by a female, it is not a noun, therefore it is not plural!!!! Get it through to your thickhead, and dont call something a piece of rubbish, without knowledge.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

u need to be careful what you call a piece of rubbish, Stop being so stubborn!

You and faye, what you both dont understand is that noun and a verb is different. it is true that for a non intelligent noun, plurals are treated as femanine singluars, but what you cant comprehend, with your biased thickhead is that a verb and a noun is different! verb means an action e.g. eat, build, follow, watch, to write, drink. A noun is a person, place or a thing. e.g. man, woman, cat, dog, truth, beauty, Austria. In other word, a word which names something, or Names of objects and concepts. Go to google and type Define: Verb or define:noun.

faslukee (follow), kulee (eat), and attakhizeea are femanine verbs indicating that the action is carried out by a female, it is not a noun, therefore it is not plural!!!! Get it through to your thickhead, and dont call something a piece of rubbish, without knowledge.

I'm not gonna go into grammar again. I know perfectly well what a noun and what a verb is and I believe Faye already explained why verbs are (or can be) feminine.
If the bee is feminine, than there's the belly issue. A bee's only got one belly, it's got two stomachs, but plural is used when it should be dual. The verse says their bellies produce honey, only one stomach does that, so in fact singular should be used.
If bees are plural there's no such issues and you've got a consistent as well as a profound verse, as Skye put it.

 

[kay106]

I'm not gonna go into grammar again. I know perfectly well what a noun and what a verb is and I believe Faye already explained why verbs are (or can be) feminine.
If the bee is feminine, than there's the belly issue. A bee's only got one belly, it's got two stomachs, but plural is used when it should be dual. The verse says their bellies produce honey, only one stomach does that, so in fact singular should be used.
If bees are plural there's no such issues and you've got a consistent as well as a profound verse, as Skye put it.

I have read in the medina university book 1 that teaches the arabic language course, that "there are rational and irrational nouns, they are also called intelligent and non intelligent...........in singular there is no difference between these two groups. in plural however, there is a very important difference. Plurals or rational NOUNS are treated as plural ..... plurals of irrational NOUNs are treated as femanine singular" [lesson 16]

Butuniha Is plural because it is a noun, do you not understand? The verbs are not nouns nor pronouns.

can somone please verify.

It is not the stomach that produces the honey alone, it is the internal organs.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I have read in the medina university book 1 that teaches the arabic language course, that "there are rational and irrational nouns, they are also called intelligent and non intelligent...........in singular there is no difference between these two groups. in plural however, there is a very important difference. Plurals or rational NOUNS are treated as plural ..... plurals of irrational NOUNs are treated as femanine singular" [lesson 16]
Butuniha Is plural because it is a noun, do you not understand? The verbs are not nouns nor pronouns.
can somone please verify.

Does your book say that verbs remain plural?

It is not the stomach that produces the honey alone, it is the internal organs.

Perhaps, but internal organs are not bellies.

 

[جوري]

What is happening here is whatisthepoint is sticking with counter view rather than both arguments presented him, to which he is entitled.. at this point akhi, I wouldn't work myself up about it!
you know what you know, and that is all that matters..