Hey Agnostics & Atheists: Do you ever worry?

[Tornado]

Obviously I wouldn't know where to begin with so many religions claiming to be the absolute truths. Perhaps this god will show me something one day.

 

[جوري]

Obviously I wouldn't know where to begin with so many religions claiming to be the absolute truths. Perhaps this god will show me something one day.

I think that is how most sincere people start on that quest...
all the best...

peace

 

[Converse02]

You have figured out a formula for distance and now trying to apply the same physics to figure out volume!

Hmmm...yeah, right.
Can someone, who actually has the ability to make sense, please answer my question. http://www.islamicboard.com/996817-post113.html

If something is beyond human definition.. then every scenario you come up with, is a mere conjecture..
..To make this simple:
the last numerical number
the physical end to outer space..
measure of emotions
what happens after death..

None of these seem to me beyond human definition. Science has done a pretty good job of defining these, including what happens to you after death. And as a person who alleges to be an MD, you should know doctors have ways to measure emotion.

so how can one concoct such a cockamamy story, with such incredible definition and expect others to come up with a plausible scenario to the thought of those imposing orientation on the newly dead ..

I'm just interested on what ppl think about this:
Consider: If a being give a creation free-will, and foresaw that the creation would used it’s free-will incorrectly (foresaw he would choose incorrectly and disobey), do you think it is wise and merciful to create this creation at all, and see him punished for eternity? Is it wise to create this a particular free-willed being with that knowledge? Would you? Yes or No?

as it shows complete lack of imagination and really affirms my beliefs that atheists can't think outside the box

The vast majority of top scientists are atheists. I think there are many atheists who are able to think outside the box.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Obviously I wouldn't know where to begin with so many religions claiming to be the absolute truths. Perhaps this god will show me something one day.

show you what?

what are you talking about?

whats there left to show!



the only way God can help us is by giving us understanding, theres nothing to show really...

 

[Tornado]

show you what?

what are you talking about?

whats there left to show!



the only way God can help us is by giving us understanding, theres nothing to show really...

Something unique to a particular religion. I haven't seen much from any particular religion that can't be used by other religions as well.

 

[جوري]

Hmmm...yeah, right.
Can someone, who actually has the ability to make sense, please answer my question. http://www.islamicboard.com/996817-post113.html

If you are looking for a response from someone else why do you quote me in the process?

None of these seem to me beyond human definition. Science has done a pretty good job of defining these, including what happens to you after death. And as a person who alleges to be an MD, you should know doctors have ways to measure emotion.

Go ahead and tell me how do you measure emotions, pain or a scintillating scotoma in a scientific way! I challenge you!
and science has done a good job defining what exactly? I dislike disjointed fragments..

I'm just interested on what ppl think about this:
Consider: If a being give a creation free-will, and foresaw that the creation would used it’s free-will incorrectly (foresaw he would choose incorrectly and disobey), do you think it is wise and merciful to create this creation at all, and see him punished for eternity? Is it wise to create this a particular free-willed being with that knowledge? Would you? Yes or No?

If being a giving creator, decided to give you a pneumotaxic center and an apneustic center so you don't forget how to breathe when you are sleeping, fatty Acid Oxidation, the krebs cycle and glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, thousands of functional enzymes around the clock working to maintain you through no will of your own, able to harness energy from multiple sources and store them, ornithine cycle with no rate limiting steps at any time so you can eat your steak at 3am as pleases you don't end up in a coma from nitrogenous waste buildup, higher recticular function, a very complex system, countless gifts, the ability to hear, function, eleminate waste, eat, breathe, fornicate, reason, enjoy open greens and seas, change of seasons aesthetics, each an intricate, complex process, a gamut too numerous and pointless for me to list to one as your person who wishes to reduce it all to a heap of compost.. and asked you for 5 simple things.. keep in touch with me, take care of those less fortunate than you, cleanse your system once a year and grow spiritually, and visit my house but once and top it off you'll have immortality.. I think I'd be immensely grateful and wondering what is the catch? except there is no catch!..

If I you had no ability to breathe right now, because you smoked and abused yourself into a COPD, I put you on a 3L home oxygen, I'd end up charging you for my time, expertise, hospital bills, and an otherwise free element known to vastly improve the quality of your life and you'd happily comply if you desired to live..try doing that simple exercise for 5 minutes see if you don't pass out.. think about your breathing.. take a deep breath in, let only half of it out, breath half and let only half of it out.. do that for a while, do it until you are using your intercostals and retracting.. let's see how well you cope, losing just one of your numerous perfect functions, yet here you sit with all the nerve you can muster ungrateful asking asinine questions... You are lucky God is infinitely merciful and patient.. If I had personally granted you all of this without medical maniupulation and complex metal and plastic machines so you are not looking like frankenstein, and you were sitting on a forum all day with ridiculous bromides I'd have smote you and others like you in a heart beat..... and that is my response to your question!

74:12 and to whom I have granted resources vast,
74:13 and children as [love's] witnesses,
74:14 and to whose life I gave so wide a scope:6
74:15 and yet, he greedily desires that I give yet more!
74:16 Nay, verily, it is against Our messages that he knowingly, stubbornly sets himself

The vast majority of top scientists are atheists. I think there are many atheists who are able to think outside the box.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

I disagree....

According to a recent study most doctors believe in God and an afterlife. This conclusion apparently contradicts earlier research which showed that in general, people tend to become less religious as education and income levels rise.The survey by Farr Curlin, a doctor and instructor at the University of Chicago, of 1,125 U.S. doctors, found that 76 percent believe in God and nearly 60 percent in some sort of afterlife.

Curlin, who oversaw the survey, says he was surprised, as the team did not realize physicians were this religious.

He says they suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering, and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most religious traditions.

The researchers also found that 90 percent of doctors said they attend religious services at least occasionally, and are more likely to describe themselves as 'spiritual' as distinct from religious, whereas for the general population, spirituality and religion appear to be more tightly connected.

They found that doctors and patients also differ on how they rely on God for help in coping with a major illness, as while most patients will look to God for strength, support and guidance, most doctors will instead try to make sense of the situation and decide what to do without relying on God.

Of the doctors surveyed, 5 percent were Hindu, 2 percent Muslim and 1 percent Buddhist, all much higher than those faiths are represented in the general population and in part reflecting the large number of foreign-born doctors who emigrate to the United States, the study said.

The report is published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11272

That is of those interviewed the majority of hospitals and research centers have a huge population of Muslim doctors, and I'd be happy to provide you with another study to that matter.. I suspect that factoid would push the number even higher to 80% or more!
However:
I hope for your sake that one day you'd be able to reason past your reliance on logical fallacies and think of something other than an appeal to authority in order to assert a point!...or I should happily see a theist out of you, now knowing that 76% of doctors believe in God?

under either circumstance it wouldn't matter at all if 99.99% of the population didn't believe in God..
as stated by another poster, what is right is right even if you are the only doing it-- and what is wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it!
If you were marooned with an anthropophagus Pueblo Peoples, you'd become a cannibal just because everyone is doing it including the chief and wise Men? You are absurd at best, lacking, reason, logic and slightest common sense!

Every soul is held in pledge by its own deeds, it isn't a communal effort!


cheers

 

[aamirsaab]

Something unique to a particular religion. I haven't seen much from any particular religion that can't be used by other religions as well.

Consider this: Currently, the UK and US (both prominent western and post modern countries) are suffering from alcohol abuse (listen to the radio today if you are in the UK), depression (more common in the US) and women continually being viewed as objects (cough pron cough started cough in US cough)

Now consider Islam: prohibition of alchohol, belief in the ultimate external force aka God (thus reducing stress - talk to any psychologist to confirm this, though some will turn around and drop the God delusion argument....which is rather weak initially and can be taken down USING psychology!), and the position it holds of women (who were given rights 1400 years before either of the US or UK did...)

If you ask me: the truth is staring at you in the face.

 

[Tornado]

Consider this: Currently, the UK and US (both prominent western and post modern countries) are suffering from alcohol abuse (listen to the radio today if you are in the UK), depression (more common in the US) and women continually being viewed as objects (cough pron cough started cough in US cough)

Canadian here . I never got that impression here. If people want to drink, that's their choice. I don't personally drink but them drinking doesn't really affect me.

Now consider Islam: prohibition of alchohol, belief in the ultimate external force aka God (thus reducing stress - talk to any psychologist to confirm this, though some will turn around and drop the God delusion argument....which is rather weak initially and can be taken down USING psychology!)

Can't be unique to just Islam? A lot of religions can uplift their respective followers.

 

[Converse02]

If you are looking for a response from someone else why do you quote me in the process?

To give an example of the responses I don't want. One that doesn't address my question.

Go ahead and tell me how do you measure emotions, pain or a scintillating scotoma in a scientific way!

I need not tell you, as you are surely intelligent enough to figure it out yourself, doctor. Didn't they teach you how to search scientific databases like pubmed or ovid in medical school? Go to the site, and type in measuring emotion or measuring pain. You will see how pain and emotion is measured, scientifically.

If I had personally granted you all of this without medical maniupulation and complex metal and plastic machines so you are not looking like frankenstein, and you were sitting on a forum all day with ridiculous bromides I'd have smote you and others like you in a heart beat.

But if you knew I were to sit on a forum all day with ridiculous bromides, and knew were I would make you upset and smote me sometime in the future, why did you created me in the first place? How wise and laudable is that? A creator who orders his slave to do things that the creater can foresee his slave not doing, then punishes him, is a fool.

 

[aamirsaab]

Canadian here .

Ah, surely you must have heard of Shabir Ally then? I recommend, if you haven't, to check his work out.

....If people want to drink, that's their choice. I don't personally drink but them drinking doesn't really affect me.

Ditto - point was, the society is feeling the effect. Don't you think it is rather strange that there is a religion that contains rulings to prevent those social ills (which are high in post modern countries?)

Can't be unique to just Islam? A lot of religions can uplift their respective followers.

I don't recall Christianity or Judaism giving women such power and status nor do I recall any other religions (that preceded Islam) do any such of the like. This in combination with the other two points I mentioned as well as the plethora of rules, laws and regulations (which range from agriculture to politics and animal welfare to financial matters - again, nothing of the sort contained in other religious teachings and practices) should be enough to act as a neon light saying: ''Islam is THE religion to follow!''

 

[Tornado]

Ah, surely you must have heard of Shabir Ally then?

I have. I find him to be a good talker and he gives thought-out answers.

Ditto - point was, the society is feeling the effect. Don't you think it is rather strange that there is a religion that contains rulings to prevent those social ills (which are high in post modern countries?)

Is alcohol abuse really any different than any other kind of abuse, say like drugs. I don't know whether drugs are forbidden in Islam. As I said, I don't really care whether they drink or not. They must live with the consequences.

I don't recall Christianity or Judaism giving women such power and status nor do I recall any other religions (that preceded Islam) do any such of the like. This in combination with the other two points I mentioned as well as the plethora of rules and regulations (which range from agriculture to politics and animal welfare to financial matters - again, nothing of the sort contained in othe religious teachings and practices) should be enough to act as a neon light saying: ''Islam is THE religion to follow!''

I don't really know much about this so perhaps someone else will answer. When it comes to their right, I fully support them having all the same rights as men. Are there any rights (not necessarily politics, lifestyle as well) the women in Islam don't have that men do?

 

[aamirsaab]

I have. I find him to be a good talker and he gives thought-out answers.

And you still aren't convinced? man, Shabir Ally's the MAN - if he can't do it, I can't .

Is alcohol abuse really any different than any other kind of abuse, say like drugs. I don't know whether drugs are forbidden in Islam. As I said, I don't really care whether they drink or not. They must live with the consequences.

It's not a matter of caring or not - I'm showing you that Islam has a preventative measure for a social ill contained in a so called post modern country. Surely you can see the greatness of that, no?

Are there any rights (not necessarily politics, lifestyle as well) the women in Islam don't have that men do?

There is debate on this matter (amongst certain folk) but I say: ask any female muslim about this issue and if her answer doesn't convince you, I honestly don't know what will!

Good luck and I hope Allah guides you onto the straight path. If ya need any help, do remember you're on an islamic forum....there's loads of ''experts'' to ask

 

[Gator]

Ditto - point was, the society is feeling the effect. Don't you think it is rather strange that there is a religion that contains rulings to prevent those social ills (which are high in post modern countries?)

The problem with your proposition is that you are comparing the unattainable (IMO) ideal of Islam to the reality of the world.

Yes, if Islam was strictly followed there would be no social ills. If the "western" laws were followed perfectly there would be no social ills.

You vision of Islam has never and in my opinion never exist on a societal wide basis. It trys to enforce a code on people that is in conflict with humanities' basic nature. I would not trade the very real and pervasive social ills of the muslim world for the "western" ones for anything.

Thanks.

 

[Tornado]

It's not a matter of caring or not - I'm showing you that Islam has a preventative measure for a social ill contained in a so called post modern country. Surely you can see the greatness of that, no?

I just don't see alcohol problem as a big deal I suppose. Just because something fixes problems doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have a solution to solve all car accidents by forbidding driving, but it's not a good idea obviously. I guess I don't see alcohol as the social ill that you see.

There is debate on this matter (amongst certain folk) but I say: ask any female muslim about this issue and if her answer doesn't convince you, I honestly don't know what will!

I actually wouldn't ask a muslim women, rather a non-muslim women. She would have to move into an Islamic country and abide by all those rules. Then I'd ask her.

Good luck and I hope Allah guides you onto the straight path. If ya need any help, do remember you're on an islamic forum....there's loads of ''experts'' to ask

Indeed.

 

[جوري]

To give an example of the responses I don't want. One that doesn't address my question.

What does that mean? You are utterly inept at making an example or carrying a thought through.. as you have demonstrated on this very post!

I need not tell you, as you are surely intelligent enough to figure it out yourself, doctor. Didn't they teach you how to search scientific databases like pubmed or ovid in medical school? Go to the site, and type in measuring emotion or measuring pain. You will see how pain and emotion is measured, scientifically.

That doesn't answer my question at all, further just a couple of posts ago, you evoked the notion that I 'allege' and you are out to expose me, well let's carry that thought through... I am not intelligent enough my answer is the one I have maintained it throughout-- THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC WAY TO MEASURE pain, headaches, scintillating scotomas etc. but YOU claim that there is, challenge us on our knowledge, and you drop names of sites, leaving the reader to decipher what he may-- what is that all about? You have something to impart on a matter don't reference us to a site, synthesize it so it makes knowledge to all of us, there is no reason to speak above us just because we pale in comparison to your own expertise, so AGAIN I CHALLENGE YOU TO BRING ME A SCIENTIFIC METHOD TO MEASURE THE AFORE MENTIONED -- or should I take your evasiveness, as a sign you don't know what you are taking about?

But if you knew I were to sit on a forum all day with ridiculous bromides, and knew were I would make you upset and smote me sometime in the future, why did you created me in the first place? How wise and laudable is that? A creator who orders his slave to do things that the creater can foresee his slave not doing, then punishes him, is a fool.

You have a same running chance as does everyone else, why should you be denied it?...
Why do your parents put you through proper schooling, if they knew in advance you were a slacker, an underachiever, intellectually challenged, plus completely anti-social and a pyromaniac?

BTW, I love how you evaded to address the 'all scientists are atheists' motto-- after I posted a research article to the contrary-- Have you all of a sudden tired of argumentum ad populum?!

cheers

 

[aamirsaab]

The problem with your proposition is that you are comparing the unattainable (IMO) ideal of Islam to the reality of the world.

Not really; alcohol is bad and Islam agrees with this position. That's really the be all and end all of it.

Yes, if Islam was strictly followed there would be no social ills. If the "western" laws were followed perfectly there would be no social ills.

Dude, the point is alcohol abuse is high in a country that considers itself as post-modern. Yet a 1400 year old religion has rulings in it that prevent alcohol abuse. Doncha get it?

...You vision of Islam has never and in my opinion never exist on a societal wide basis. It trys to enforce a code on people that is in conflict with humanities' basic nature.

I fail to see how a prohibition on alcohol is in conflict with humanities basic nature. Surely, staying alive IS basic nature, no? Of course, this is not even to mention the rights (and status) of women in Islam - which again surely wouldn't be contradicory to humanities basic nature...

I would not trade the very real and pervasive social ills of the muslim world for the "western" ones for anything.

Thanks.

Er i'm not talking about a trade off between worlds; simply pointing out a very simple statement: alcohol is bad for you - Islam has been saying this for 1400 years. Post modern countries are not listening to Islam (or to common sense for that matter) and thus alcohol abuse is HIGH!

I just don't see alcohol problem as a big deal I suppose. Just because something fixes problems doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have a solution to solve all car accidents by forbidding driving, but it's not a good idea obviously. I guess I don't see alcohol as the social ill that you see.

Well, in the UK it is quite a big problem and like debt, our government seems to be taking hypocritical steps to prevent these (like building 100 super casinos or having pubs open 24 hours....makes perfect sense). Besides, your example isn't fair: cars aren't the problem - drivers are. As far as alcohol is concerned, the entire product itself causes a problem...with the consumers own BODY

I actually wouldn't ask a muslim women, rather a non-muslim women. She would have to move into an Islamic country and abide by all those rules. Then I'd ask her.

Good luck on finding one that fits those characteristics. It would be easier to find a muslim women to ask tho .

 

[Riyadh-ul-Jannah]

I dont worry because I know that my religion is true. I do think that it might be another religion at points but then I always reassure myself that Islam is the true Religion, no matter what others say. I know a story of two men, one good, one bad, they both died, and the good went to Hell, the bad went Paradise. The goods family said that the man always said he believed In Islam but had many doubts and would say that he believed in the religion if it was true, wheras the bads family said the man would always say I believe in Islam no matter what, My religion is Islam, so in other words dont have convictions about your religion.

 

[barney]

I dont worry because I know that my religion is true. I do think that it might be another religion at points but then I always reassure myself that Islam is the true Religion, no matter what others say. I know a story of two men, one good, one bad, they both died, and the good went to Hell, the bad went Paradise. The goods family said that the man always said he believed In Islam but had many doubts and would say that he believed in the religion if it was true, wheras the bads family said the man would always say I believe in Islam no matter what, My religion is Islam, so in other words dont have convictions about your religion.

Thats a good story Riyadh. Which religion gave you that story?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I can fly by flapping my arms, but only when no-one is looking or recording me. Do you believe what I say? :statisfie

If I knew you personally, and knew you to be one who told only the truth in every other aspect of your life, and I could see that neither did you appear to be joking nor insane when you said this, then incredible as it seemed, I just might. However, without all of those things being true I am afraid I would not. Why do you ask?

 

[barney]

If I knew you personally, and knew you to be one who told only the truth in every other aspect of your life, and I could see that neither did you appear to be joking nor insane when you said this, then incredible as it seemed, I just might. However, without all of those things being true I am afraid I would not. Why do you ask?

Its an old thread, so I might speak for him, lest he not return to it.

I beleive he is asking why you would beleive extrodinary claims without extrodinary proof.

A similar situation would be if the prophet michal travasser currently residing in strong city USA, who claims he is the messiah was to die, and 3 days later all his diciples,(about 50 of them) were to make a testament that he had risen again and turned beer into mud or something, then shot off into heaven on a Golden Porshe. Further proof that this happened is that before he left he told them he would return each wednesday at 6 PM by appearing in the form of a doughnut, which they were to eat because he wanted them to eat his flesh.

Would you beleive them if they told you that in the year 2088, eighty years after the event?