Stoning to Death and its effect on me

**nydweller** · 06-07-2007

[URL="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/082.sbt.html#008.082.810"]Salam,
I'm a 25 year old male, and have been a devout muslim for most of my life. Like everyone, I've made my fair share of mistakes, and asked for forgiveness afterwards. I've lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for several years, and I've never questioned what I've been taught and what I've read in the Islamic texts that I've had access to over the years. Until now.
Recently, I was sent a link to a video of a young girl being stoned to death in a public square in northern Iraq, and this had a profound effect on me. It was almost too difficult to watch, but I felt like it was my duty to do so since the people engaging in the brutal killing chanted cries of "Allahu Akbar" and thus proclaiming themselves to be representatives of Islam. Essentially they beat this poor 17 year old girl to death with stones and then finished her off with a cinder block to the head, because she had committed zina with a non-Muslim man. I felt dirty and wrong from just watching it.
I spent many hours researching the views of Islam on stoning to death as capital punishment, hoping that I was misinformed about it being allowed in Islam. Unfortunately, this was not the case. My suspicions were confirmed that while it isn't mentioned in the Quran, several aHadith related by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim give us quotes from the Prophet (PBUH) recommending stoning to death as punishment for such offenders.
(For example, here: USC link)

Now, I am not sure what to do as this is causing many conflicting views within my mind and heart about what I've believed and followed all along. I can post the video of the unfortunate young soul who was stoned to death on video, but I refrain from doing so since there might be younger children on the forums. I will gladly send you the link if you send me a private message.

If there are any learned Islamic scholars on this forum, I would love to hear your thoughts on my dilemma, as well as the thoughts of my fellow brothers and sisters. This is not something, in my opinion, that I can easily reconcile. We are supposed to be bringers of peace, and murdering young women in this fashion seems wrong to me regardless of what she did or planned to do.

Wasalam,
nydweller

**Malaikah** · 06-08-2007

Originally Posted by barney

The "problem" is that you cant change whats written, and so no matter how much mankind progresses in culture, art, learning and technology, you will under Islam have teenage girls being ripped to bits by rocks.

Teenage girls? How many teenage girls do you know of are even married, to be able to commit adultery?

(and in front of four rightoues witnesses too).

By the way, I hope you aren't intention ignoring the fact that the punishment is applied to men as well?

**- Qatada -** · 06-08-2007

brother nydweller.

Regarding the issue of stoning to death, we've clarified it quite abit. Have you not read the fact that the ruling for such a crime requires 4 witnesses? When for other crimes usually only 2 witnesses are required? Why is this rule so different? There has to be a reason.

Why is the punishment so severe? Sexuality when becoming widespread in a society causes a huge amount of corruption. Let's see what the Islamic Shari'a tries to uphold as a whole;

Since the Islamic legal injunctions are aimed at achieving human welfare, they can all be referred back to universal principles which are necessary for human welfare to be secured. These universal principles are:

1. The preservation of life.
2. The preservation of religion.
3. The preservation of reason.
4. The preservation of lineage.
5. The preservation of property.

The Islamic penal system is aimed at preserving these five universal necessities. To preserve life, it prescribes the law of retribution. To preserve religion, it prescribes the punishment for apostasy. To preserve reason, it prescribes the punishment for drinking. To preserve lineage, it prescribes the punishment for fornication. To preserve wealth, it prescribes the punishment for theft. To protect all of them, it prescribed the punishment for highway robbery.

It should therefore become clear to us why the crimes for which Islam for which the Law has prescribed fixed punishments are as follows:

1. Transgression against life (murder or assault).
2. Transgression against property (theft).
3. Transgression against lineage (fornication and false accusations of adultery).
4. Transgression against reason (using intoxicants).
5. Transgression against religion (apostasy).
6. Transgression against all of these universal needs (highway robbery).

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ent-islam.html

The issue of lineage is extremely important in society because it keeps a family secure, and if the families are secure, then society as a whole will be more secure. If society as a whole is more secure, then the nation as a whole can be secure from the inside. And if this is the case - then many people within that nation are safe.

Most nations only break down once there is internal conflict, and internal conflict starts off from the home. If someone has an illegitimate child, do you think the child's going to feel happy? Infact that child may get pyschological problems because he/she doesn't really belong to a legitimate father, this may make him feel rejected and if this was to be on a greater scale - the harm would be much greater as a whole.

To stop the harms from falling into place, Islaam has made severe penalties for those who wish to transgress them. Why is it that in the US the rate of crime is much more higher compared to an Islamic state who applies these strict laws? That's because a person getting shot in the UK will only get 25years max, maybe even parole. What happens in an Islamic state? Death penalty in some circumstances, so the person thinks twice before doing something that major. Whereas in the UK, the person doesn't mind giving up 25years or less, so long as he took someone elses life?

When another guy sees that this man got parole and never even did full time, what does he do? He gets happy that he might be able to get away from a similar crime also, so he kills another for revenge, what happens to him? Same thing. This continues and spreads like wild fire, they all know they're going to escape anyway, so they're ready to spread this corruption so long as they get their revenge (maybe it's for some drugs or whatever.)

These guys would think twice if they knew they would get the death penalty, but where there aren't strict laws - then the person doesn't even care, and corruption spreads. When evil becomes widespread in a society and the people don't repent to Allaah - Allaah may send them a Messenger to convey the message clearly to them - giving them glad tidings for their obedience to Him, and a punishment if they don't obey and do good, Allaah trials them so they may turn back to Him, and if they still reject and don't change their ways for the sake of Allaah - Allaah destroys them, and the punishment of the hereafter is much greater than the punishment of this life, yet Allaah has a great reward for those who obey and do good.

Now that we've understood some basic issues, you said that it doesn't matter how much witnesses there are. But then you have to question, do you think it's okay for a guy and a female to have sexual intercourse in public for show, infront of 100 people and Islaam allows that? Do you think that's the idea of morality?

If we're to say that 100 witnesses isn't equal to 4 witnesses, then we have to question why there has never been no recorded event in our Islamic history when there have been 4 witnesses seeing the actual penetration take place? Therefore they never got stoned due to that 4 witnesses ruling.

Which leads to the point about throwing a stone at an fornicator, this person 1) Either did it out of showing off their immorality - which would teach others a lesson that they shouldn't show off their immorality and sin. 2) Something like this has never been recorded within the 14 century history, which means that it would be extremely rare for it to occur. If we're to use fractions, its like 0/1420 right?

Also, another thing that we don't realise is that just because sexual immorality has become so common in the world today, we don't find it so shocking. Yet this is a huge sin in the sight of Allaah, it is one of the major sins. Allaah has placed it near to murder in the Qur'an:

“And those who invoke not any other god along with Allaah, nor kill such life as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse – and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

[Qur'an al-Furqaan 25:68-70]
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=

So the act of fornication is a great sin in the sight of Allaah, and no matter what our society may tell us. That doesn't mean that it's always right, since society has always changed over time, even at the time of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) zina/fornication was widespread, especially before he recieved the message.

But that still didn't mean it was right, we judge our "wrongs/rights" and morality by what Allaah and His Messenger has decreed, because if we simply fall prey to society, then that's when we give up our religion for them, and they won't be pleased at all unless we give it up altogether and turn into one of them, the slaves of society and oppressive rulers.

Wasn't it this society who said just 100 years ago that a woman couldn't have her own property? Wasn't it this society which we all 'look upto' that used to say that it's the muslims who are evil since they allow polygamy of upto 4 wives (if we can deal with them justly), yet what does the society do itself? Allow a guy to have 1000 girlfriends, but if he marries 2, that's not allowed? Why is that? Maybe it's because the guys are the legislators of the rules here, and the pregnant 'mistress' doesn't even have to be supported by the guy she got pregnant off?

Or how about a woman who's married to a guy and her husband chooses to run off with another guy in a gay relationship, and she doesn't have any rights to stop that? Instead she lives at home looking after the children, without having any right to stop that immorality.

It is Allaah who defines what morality is, and He has sent His Messenger with the truth to convey it clearly to us. If we are slaves to society and run around giving up everything of our Islaam, until we turn into one of them - do you think that's going to make us special? Or do you think they're just going to abuse us more since we've given up our morals altogether now?

Or are we going to stand up for the truth and be strangers - like the true Messengers' of Allaah were -, since the real home for the truthful is the Paradise in the presence of Allaah, His Messengers' and the righteous.

And Allaah knows best.

Peace brother.

**nydweller** · 06-08-2007

Salam, brother Fi_Sabilillah.

A wonderful answer you have provided, but I would like to clarify a few things.

1) Just because I have an issue with this specific decreed punishment, you all have assumed that I look up to western society, or hold it to be better than Islamic society. If you read through my posts again, you will notice that nowhere have I mentioned western or modern society. I simply have a problem with the brutality inherent to this form of punishment. Please do not assume that I have a problem with it only because the western world considers it to be brutal. I'm not an American now nor have I ever been even though I do now reside in new york. I've lived in Pakistan and Saudi for the major part of my life. What you say here is inaccurate:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Wasn't it this society who said just 100 years ago that a woman couldn't have her own property? Wasn't it this society which we all 'look upto' that used to say that it's the muslims who are evil since they allow polygamy of upto 4 wives (if we can deal with them justly), yet what does the society do itself? Allow a guy to have 1000 girlfriends, but if he marries 2, that's not allowed? Why is that? Maybe it's because the guys are the legislators of the rules here, and the pregnant 'mistress' doesn't even have to be supported by the guy she got pregnant off?

2) Regarding this:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

brother nydweller.

Now that we've understood some basic issues[/COLOR], you said that it doesn't matter how much witnesses there are. But then you have to question, do you think it's okay for a guy and a female to have sexual intercourse in public for show, infront of 100 people and Islaam allows that? Do you think that's the idea of morality?

I never stated that I thought it was okay, nor did I say that is my idea of morality. Keep in mind that I am indeed a practicing Muslim and have been for my whole life. The issue I have here is not with Islam's guide to what is moral and what is not. The issue is a lot more specific than fornication itself. My issue is ONLY with the METHOD of killing prescribed in a punishment. I would have no problem with the beheading or hanging of fornicators in Islam. I have a problem only with the stoning to death itself. I suppose this is something that nobody can really help me with, as what's prescribed is prescribed and I must either accept everything in Islam or nothing at all.

Also, nobody has yet answered my hypothetical question, if your female loved one, such as sister, cousin, etc, had committed this crime, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at her head? Would you be able to do this knowing that it is your command from Allah?

**- Qatada -** · 06-08-2007

I'm sorry brother, i never really aimed them points at you specifically because alhamdulillah we all are learning, i was just trying to make a point. My intention wasn't to target you, and again i'm sorry if it seemed that way.

I think the main issue is brother, that the punishment is severe so people don't do it and make it public especially. Think about it, a couple who say they love each other when it's illegitimate may be prepared to die for the sake of their relationship right? (a relationship which isn't permissible.)

Now if they were to be simply beheaded, don't you think many people would be prepared to actually do that? Because we know without a doubt, love can make someone do crazy things. So if one was to be simply beheaded, then they may be prepared to actually fornicate (in public, for what reason i don't know?)

Regarding the issue of stoning someone who did the act in public, clearly - then you have to question why they would truelly do it in public? What was their intention? It can't be anything but an evil intention if something so explicit is done clearly infront of 4 witnesses.

The ruling is so specific, and the crime in of itself has to have accurate accounts, and if that's not the case - like we've seen there havn't been any recorded events in our Islamic history - then how can we say that what the fornicator is doing is right?

Also, nobody has yet answered my hypothetical question, if your female loved one, such as sister, cousin, etc, had committed this crime, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at her head? Would you be able to do this knowing that it is your command from Allah?

Like we've mentioned, there have been no recorded events in history. And if the person never wanted to stone that certain person - is there any mention of family members having an obligation to do that act?

And even so - you have to question again why there would be 4 witnesses watching that action take place at all? Was it due to the immorality of the fornicators (wanting to do it infront of them), and if not that - then why are they doing it in public? Even when they know the actual ruling for it?

**nydweller** · 06-08-2007

Thank you for your timely responses. JazakAllah.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

I'm sorry brother, i never really aimed them points at you specifically because alhamdulillah we all are learning, i was just trying to make a point. My intention wasn't to target you, and again i'm sorry if it seemed that way.

I think the main issue is brother, that the punishment is severe so people don't do it and make it public especially. Think about it, a couple who say they love each other when it's illegitimate may be prepared to die for the sake of their relationship right? (a relationship which isn't permissible.)

Now if they were to be simply beheaded, don't you think many people would be prepared to actually do that? Because we know without a doubt, love can make someone do crazy things. So if one was to be simply beheaded, then they may be prepared to actually fornicate (in public, for what reason i don't know?)

Regarding the issue of stoning someone who did the act in public, clearly - then you have to question why they would truelly do it in public? What was their intention? It can't be anything but an evil intention if something so explicit is done clearly infront of 4 witnesses.

The ruling is so specific, and the crime in of itself has to have accurate accounts, and if that's not the case - like we've seen there havn't been any recorded events in our Islamic history - then how can we say that what the fornicator is doing is right?

Like we've mentioned, there have been no recorded events in history. And if the person never wanted to stone that certain person - is there any mention of family members having an obligation to do that act?

And even so - you have to question again why there would be 4 witnesses watching that action take place at all? Was it due to the immorality of the fornicators (wanting to do it infront of them), and if not that - then why are they doing it in public? Even when they know the actual ruling for it?

**- Qatada -** · 06-08-2007

Just to clarify one more thing, some people may claim that others may have a hidden camera in the room, then 4 witnesses may see the event take place and the people be punished.

But i found a fatwa which states that this method isn't sufficient:

How can zinaa be proven?

Question:
I know that in the past if someone has committed adultery, they had to bring 4 witnesses .
My question is can we prove that today by using latest scientific methods as the DNA test, instead of bringing 4 witnesses.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

According to Islamic sharee’ah, zinaa can only be proven by clear evidence, namely the testimony of four trustworthy and sound witnesses who saw it actually happen, or by confession of guilt, or by the woman becoming pregnant. It cannot be proven by DNA testing or by use of cameras and videos in place of the things mentioned above. And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=6926&ln=eng&txt=

**asadxyz** · 06-08-2007

Assalaamo Alaikum:

After reading these "Fatwas" ,I think I should stop using "Sahar/IFtar " time table in Ramadan because Quranic Aya is :
وَكُلُواْ وَاشْرَبُواْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَكُمُ الْخَيْطُ الأَبْيَضُ مِنَ الْخَيْطِ الأَسْوَدِ
And Eat and drink till the white thread can be differentiated from the black thread (2:187)

Two Scenarios:
No:1
Suppose a person X committs Zina ;
The crime is proved by
Four eye witness = Islamic punishment implented

No:2
Suppose another person Y comitts Zina
One eye witnesses =available
+ cicumstantial evidence + DNA test + Video film = This person is acquitted respectfully and the eye witness is punished because of "Qazaf".
It means that one eye -witness in spite of being true will not dare to give evidence. (because of fear of punishment)

No:3
A lady is raped .She recongnises the offender .Goes to the Qazi against the offender.Rape is proved by
DNA test + cicumstantial evidence.But
a:Criminal is acquitted because of lack of four eye-witnesses
b:Lady is punished for Qazaf

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ﴿2:156﴾

I wonder if this is the real spirit of Islamic laws .
May Allah Bless all of us.
best of luck

**Malaikah** · 06-09-2007

asadxyz, no one is going to be able to give you an answer to every single scenario you can think of. We are not experts in criminal law. Heck, I can't even tell you how trials for rape work in the country I live in.

If you truly want real answers go to a person how is educated to be a judge n Islam law.

One eye witnesses =available
+ cicumstantial evidence + DNA test + Video film = This person is acquitted respectfully and the eye witness is punished because of "Qazaf".
It means that one eye -witness in spite of being true will not dare to give evidence. (because of fear of punishment)

Yes, exactly. The spirit of Islamic law isn't to go LOOKING for people doing wrong! Why should we expose people who have sinned unnecessarily when the problem can be fixed in better ways without everyone finding out?

**asadxyz** · 06-09-2007

Originally Posted by Malaikah

asadxyz, no one is going to be able to give you an answer to every single scenario you can think of. We are not experts in criminal law. Heck, I can't even tell you how trials for rape work in the country I live in.

If you truly want real answers go to a person how is educated to be a judge n Islam law.
?

Assalaamo Alaikum;
Surely ,if you can post some URL which can help me out for my Question that will be a great favor for me.
Secondly these scenarios are logical deduction of the Fatwas which have been posted regarding this matter.

No doubt scholars have their very high place because of their knowledge in this field and the Holy Quran orders us to ask them if we do not know.

But as all doctors are not equally competent ,,it is not essential that all Fatwas displayed on www.blablabla etc are true Islamic representation.
That is why Allah Almighty has ordered all the Muslims to ponder over the Holy Quran which we do not do.
Best of luck

**Nabooly** · 06-09-2007

Also, id like to add that any punishment in the afterlife is FAR worse than anything here on earth.

I remember something i read on here. A women came to the Prophet (pbuh) and told him she commited zina. He told her she can either endure the punishment or repent for the sin she commited. She came back to him and opted for the punishment, she couldnt live with herself because she commited this sin. So these people do have the choice of repenting or taking the punishment.

And the girl is Yezeidi, and Yezeidis do not like Muslims. She loved the muslim guy and she went to a Sheikh. Her family called her and told her to come back home, and that they had forgiven her. She came home and the men in her family dragged her outside.

Anyway, Allah yer7amha.

**Musalmaan** · 06-09-2007

DNA Analysis as Court Evidence in Criminal Cases!

By Sheikh Nizâr al-Shu`aybî, presiding judge at the Shaqîq City Courthouse

In order to properly discuss the question of using DNA as evidence in an Islamic court of law, we must first understand that there are two types of punishments in Islamic Law: prescribed punishments and discretionary punishments.
First there are prescribed punishments, such as stoning the married adulterer, flogging and exiling the unmarried adulterer, flogging the imbiber of liquor, and the punishment for highway robbery. These punishments are explicitly stated in the sacred texts. The judge cannot modify these punishments, reduce them, or increase them. Whenever a person is found guilty of a crime that has a prescribed punishment in Islamic Law, the prescribed punishment must be carried out to the letter.
This kind of punishment can only be carried out on the basis of a confession or the testimony of reliable witnesses. These punishments cannot be applied on the basis of DNA analysis or other forms of evidence. These punishments are Allah's right on the people, and Allah's rights are based in forgiveness. This is why we have the legal principle which states: "Prescribed punishments must be waived when there are doubts surrounding the case".
With DNA testing, there is always a chance for a mistake in the analysis or in the collection of the sample. Furthermore, Islam seeks to conceal people's mistakes. Therefore, it is better to rely on reliable witnesses than on DNA analysis. It is worth noting that even when a person clearly confesses to committing a crime then retracts his confession, his retraction will be accepted. He will not be subjected to the prescribed punishment for the crime he had originally confessed to committing. Since the prescribed punishment cannot be applied to him, his punishment must either be modified to a lesser one at the judge's discretion or he may be released without punishment.
This brings us to discretionary punishments. These are the punishments for legal violations where the method of punishment and its specification are not prescribed by Islamic law. It is up to the judge to decide on the punishment at his discretion, taking many factors into consideration. He will look towards the prescribed punishment as a standard of comparison for these undetermined punishments. The judge, in such cases, is free to use modern, technological means of producing evidences against the criminal.
In a case where someone is accused of a crime for which there is a prescribed punishment and is not convicted by the proper number of reliable witnesses or by a confession but is found guilty by way of a DNA test, the judge will not be able to carry out the prescribed punishment upon him. However, depending on the strength of the DNA evidence, the judge may apply a lesser discretionary punishment. The same can be said for other forms of evidence.
It is worth saying that it is preferable to avoid investigations of this type unless the crime in question affects public security.
The Islamic Law Complex of the Islamic World League has decreed that: "…there is no legal objection to using DNA analysis in criminal investigations and in considering it as evidence in the crimes that do not obligate the court to carry out a prescribed punishment. This can be gleaned from the hadîth "Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts". This would offer justice and security for society and help to ensure that the criminal is punished and the innocent released, which is an important objective of Islamic Law."
There are many possible uses for DNA evidence. The following have been approved by the Islamic World League:
[Source: seventh decree of the Sixteenth Session of the Islamic World League]
1. To resolve disputes over kinship for any reason such as overturning evidence or in cases of mistaken marriage between siblings.
2. To resolve disputes over the parentage of newborn babies born in hospitals and of test-tube babies.
3. To identify missing babies after disasters and wars, unknown corpses, and prisoners of war.

And Allah knows best

**asadxyz** · 06-09-2007

Asallaamo Alaikum;
Dear you said :

This brings us to discretionary punishments. These are the punishments for legal violations where the method of punishment and its specification are not prescribed by Islamic law. It is up to the judge to decide on the punishment at his discretion, taking many factors into consideration. He will look towards the prescribed punishment as a standard of comparison for these undetermined punishments. The judge, in such cases, is free to use modern, technological means of producing evidences against the criminal.
In a case where someone is accused of a crime for which there is a prescribed punishment and is not convicted by the proper number of reliable witnesses or by a confession but is found guilty by way of a DNA test, the judge will not be able to carry out the prescribed punishment upon him. However, depending on the strength of the DNA evidence, the judge may apply a lesser discretionary punishment. The same can be said for other forms of evidence.
It is worth saying that it is preferable to avoid investigations of this type unless the crime in question affects public security.
]

The Islamic Law Complex of the Islamic World League has decreed that: "…there is no legal objection to using DNA analysis in criminal investigations and in considering it as evidence in the crimes that do not obligate the court to carry out a prescribed punishment. This can be gleaned from the hadîth "Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts". This would offer justice and security for society and help to ensure that the criminal is punished and the innocent released, which is an important objective of Islamic Law."

Of course this senstence is very important:

Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts".

Which Hadith does say this ?
Secondly if there is doubt it means crime is not proved , then why punishment?

The problem is, the crime is

Either proved = Then full punishment
Or unproved = Accused acquitted

There is nothing in between.You mean one crime can have two different types of punishments??

If fornication proved by four witnesses = flogging
If fornication proved by other means = Less punishment
In both cases fornication is proved then why two punishments.

The Holy Quran says clearly :

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes

Does the Holy Quran say that if proved by Four eye witnesses then Flogging and if proved by other evidences then Imprisonment or other punishment?? Is this conclusion extracted from Sunna??.If so please put forward the evidence ,it will be a great service towards understanding of this problem.
If this idea is self cooked then remember Allah Says ;

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ وَنَسُواْ حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِ وَلاَ تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىَ خَآئِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً مِّنْهُمُ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَ اصْفَحْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ﴿5:13﴾
(5:13) Then, for their breach of the covenant We cast them away from Our mercy and caused their hearts to harden. (And now they are in such a state that) they pervert the words from their context and thus distort their meaning, and have forgotten a good portion of the teaching they were imparted, and regarding all except a few of them you continue to learn that they committed acts of treachery. Pardon them, then, and overlook their deeds. Surely Allah loves those who do good deeds.
The Only Standard in Islam is "The Quran And Sunna".And this status cannot be assigned to anyone no matter who he/she is

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيل اً﴿4:59﴾
(4:59) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end

Best of luck

**Musalmaan** · 06-09-2007

its not so much complex, i mean, i am also new to this topic...but it wasn't hard for me to grip it. alhamdulilah

to conclude, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments when the the four witness requirement of prescribed hadd punishment of Almighty Allah is not applied.

For any other queries, please ask an authentic scholar, as per the command of Almighty Allah, for the fuqahaa are more knowledgeable than us.

**asadxyz** · 06-09-2007

Originally Posted by Musalmaan

its not so much complex, i mean, i am also new to this topic...but it wasn't hard for me to grip it. alhamdulilah

to conclude, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments when the the four witness requirement of prescribed hadd punishment of Almighty Allah is not applied.

For any other queries, please ask an authentic scholar, as per the command of Almighty Allah, for the fuqahaa are more knowledgeable than us.

Assalaamo Alaikum:
You mean if the rapist is convicted on DNA test in the absence of four eye witnesses ,then punishment of flogging or stoning to death can be given ??
Am I right to understand you ?'

**Musalmaan** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by asadxyz

Assalaamo Alaikum:
You mean if the rapist is convicted on DNA test in the absence of four eye witnesses ,then punishment of flogging or stoning to death can be given ??
Am I right to understand you ?'

well dont understand me, lol its no use, understand the rulings from the right source.
Acc. to little what I understand from few rulings of scholars so far is that discretionary punishments is not same as the prescribed hadd punishment. The prescribed hadd punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.
The discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine.

Thats all from me.

**asadxyz** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Musalmaan

well dont understand me, lol its no use, understand the rulings from the right source.
Acc. to little what I understand from few rulings of scholars so far is that discretionary punishments is not same as the prescribed hadd punishment. The prescribed hadd punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.
The discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine.

Thats all from me.

Assalaamo Alaikum;
So you mean "Zina" has two types of punishments :

Prescribed Hadd punishment = if four eye witnesses available
Discretionary punishment= if four eye witnesses not availabe and proved by other means.

Here is the problem .Either the crime (Zina) has occured or not occured.There is nothing in between ;

If Zina has occured "Hadd punishement" should occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise
If Zina has not occured ,accused must be acquitted.

Looks very odd
Crime = one
Punishments =two types
why ??

Can you give me any example from The Holy Quran or Sunna that Zina has two different types punishments??Or it is self cooked.
Best of luck

**Musalmaan** · 06-10-2007

You are absolutely wrong when you say "Hadd punishement" occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise. This is a sign of basic error in belief. Nobody can change the law of Allah, even the prophet can not change without will of Almighty Allah. to say, "Hadd punishement" occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise is absolutely False.

Thatswhy, I remind you again to refer an authentic scholar. and also scholar can only tell, Allah has given choice in this world to either accept it or reject it.

Originally Posted by asadxyz

Assalaamo Alaikum;
So you mean "Zina" has two types of punishments :

Prescribed Hadd punishment = if four eye witnesses available
Discretionary punishment= if four eye witnesses not availabe and proved by other means.

Here is the problem .Either the crime (Zina) has occured or not occured.There is nothing in between ;

If Zina has occured "Hadd punishement" should occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise
If Zina has not occured ,accused must be acquitted.

Looks very odd
Crime = one
Punishments =two types
why ??

Can you give me any example from The Holy Quran or Sunna that Zina has two different types punishments??Or it is self cooked.
Best of luck

**asadxyz** · 06-10-2007

Assalaamo Alaikum
You are absolutely right no one can change Hudd punishment.
It is not I who is changing the punishment rather those who are insisting on "Two punishments"
This is in fact Tahreef in the Quran and Sunna.
Ok ,then what is the proof of second punishment from the Quran and Sunna.
You did not provide any proof.It will be of great help if you could provide because I am aware of only "Hadd punishment".
Please do give me some URL or E-mail address so that I can contact who can provide some proof of this second punishment.
Best of lUck

**Musalmaan** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by asadxyz

Assalaamo Alaikum
You are absolutely right no one can change Hudd punishment.
It is not I who is changing the punishment rather those who are insisting on "Two punishments"
This is in fact Tahreef in the Quran and Sunna.
Ok ,then what is the proof of second punishment from the Quran and Sunna.
You did not provide any proof.It will be of great help if you could provide because I am aware of only "Hadd punishment".
Please do give me some URL or E-mail address so that I can contact who can provide some proof of this second punishment.
Best of lUck

What is relationship of this matter with tehreef Quran,
you are really an idiot and ignorant person, you should ask from shia scholars what is really "Tehreef Quran", they have a lot of "proofs" in their books with "Ayatullah's" commentary over it what is "tehreef Quran" and how much solid believe they have over it.
also ask them to proof from Quran and Hadith what is the punishment of car driver who broke the signal and traffic rules?
All the punishments in the world should be from Quran and Hadith. It might be your belief so ask from YOUR scholars/allamah.

I am off from it.

**barney** · 06-11-2007

God Diddnt make traffic signals. I'm sure he's not bothered about a car travelling at 32MPH in a 30 Zone.

You dont need, in my opinion, his instruction on everything.

Free will remember?