A solution to Israel?

[Pygoscelis]

Sharia or anything else, any kind of religious "state" is by definition anti-freedom, so it bothers me.

 

[Skywalker]

i'm sorry to say it, but the israel-palestinian problem looks totally hopeless to me. they will just keep killing each other until.....?
i hope i am wrong.

Don't worry, you are.

israel was founded (rightly or wrongly) as a jewish state - specifically as a homeland for the jewish people.

Actually, it's a secular state, which expelled thousands of people in order to be created.

there is no way they are going to agree to that state's demise.

Well, some people may be asking for it's demise, but I more interested in a restructuring.

there is also no way (due to the above) that they are going to grant the "right of return" as demanded by the palestinians.

This is where the key to the situation lies. They expelled people from their homes and now they don't acknowledge their right to want to return. This is where, I feel, they are going to have to make a compromise if there is going to be peace. Either a compromise, or enormous foreign pressure, unlike what we've been seeing up till now.

no one is going to agree to live under shariah law except muslims.

Secularists and atheists would have a problem, but like I said before, I'd be more than willing to live under Torah law, and I think the more religious Jews would also not have a problem living under Sharia law. I could be wrong though.

Or is there a rule about nobody but Jews living in a Jewish country?

 

[E'jaazi]

You cannot allow kufr in an Islamic State. The Land belongs to the muslims and that is the only way it will ever be settled!

 

[snakelegs]

Don't worry, you are.

Actually, it's a secular state, which expelled thousands of people in order to be created.

this is true. its founders were not religious, but the state was established as a jewish state - a homeland for jews. (never mind that it was in someone else's house!) it was felt that all the centuries of persecution came because the jewish people no longer had a state.
the europeans saw it as a handy way to establish a neo-colony in the mideast. personally, i think it was wrong and that the state was founded on a fallacy, but that's beside the point.

This is where the key to the situation lies. They expelled people from their homes and now they don't acknowledge their right to want to return. This is where, I feel, they are going to have to make a compromise if there is going to be peace. Either a compromise, or enormous foreign pressure, unlike what we've been seeing up till now.

israel will never grant the right of return to the people they displaced. this would alter the demographics of the country and it would no longer be a jewish state. they will never compromise on this issue. would the palestinians? would they settle for monetary compensation? (they might be more willing than the jews.)

Secularists and atheists would have a problem, but like I said before, I'd be more than willing to live under Torah law, and I think the more religious Jews would also not have a problem living under Sharia law. I could be wrong though.

Or is there a rule about nobody but Jews living in a Jewish country?

it is not that no one jewish can live there but the jews are not going to agree to become a minority. most israeli jews would have a problem with even a jewish theocracy!
i don't think that only secularists and atheists would have a problem - i think everyone would have a problem with accepting a shariah ruled country. don't forget there are also many palestinian christians. for that matter, i'm sure that there are plenty of palestinian muslims that would have no desire to live under shariah.
i think your idea is completely unrealistic. i don't see how you can think for one minute that this scenario is a possibility for a peaceful solution. it will never happen. no one but muslims (and not all muslims, at that) would voluntarily agree to live under shariah.
i don't know if there is a solution to this mess, but the one you propose is not it.

 

[Trumble]

this is true. its founders were not religious, but the state was established as a jewish state - a homeland for jews. (never mind that it was in someone else's house!) it was felt that all the centuries of persecution came because the jewish people no longer had a state.

As you imply it is essential to distinguish between the Jewish religion and the Jewish people. It is pointless talking about whether Israeli Jews would be as 'happy' to live under Sharia law as they would Torah law - the majority would find both totally unacceptable; just as unacceptable as citizens in the US or Europe would.

the europeans saw it as a handy way to establish a neo-colony in the mideast. personally, i think it was wrong and that the state was founded on a fallacy, but that's beside the point.

Do you have anything to support that? As far as I'm aware the European nations had no desire whatsoever for a 'neo-colony' in the Middle East, and Israel has certainly never behaved as one. That doesn't mean there wasn't (by no means universal) support for the establishment of the state of Israel but it shouldn't be forgotten that the boundaries seen as acceptable in 1948 were very different from those of 1967, and today. Most of the land that the Palestinians have any real case for 'returning' to was 'gifted' to Israel by the Arabs (as opposed to 'muslims') in the hopelessly misjudged 1948 war.

 

[Grace Seeker]

You cannot allow kufr in an Islamic State. The Land belongs to the muslims and that is the only way it will ever be settled!

It almost sounds like you would prefer war to anything less than getting exactly what you want in total. Is there nothing less than an Islamic state that you would be willing to accept?

Your profile does not say where you presently live. Is it an Islamic state under pure Sharia law? Or have you learned to live with something other than that after all?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

When children, brothers may behave as you have indicated. But when mature, I don't expect the same sort of behavior that I do of children. So are you saying that Palestinians and Israelies are behaving like children?

The 'behavior' might be a direct result of men ingesting excessive amounts of (birth control) hormones which have turned up in the rivers there. I'm not positive (not my field of expertise), but I can't imagine this would have no effect on the men. My point is, yes... they are behaving like children wihout mothers. The fact that they are forwarded by so many generations, does not make them any less than family. It just means there are more branches of the family tree to deal with.

If I were to go off on one of my spiritual lectures, I'd say the land the Judeans have called Israel is cursed by an older Justice - but I'll spare everyone from that rant. I believe the House of Islam can unite themselves, despite all the sibling rivalry, and if they do... nuff said.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Skywalker]

You cannot allow kufr in an Islamic State.

Says who? People are free to worship whatever they want if they pay the jizya and abide by the law.

personally, i think it was wrong and that the state was founded on a fallacy, but that's beside the point.

I think most of us agree on that.

israel will never grant the right of return to the people they displaced. this would alter the demographics of the country and it would no longer be a jewish state. they will never compromise on this issue.

What if they faced sanctions? Do you think they would compromise then?

would the palestinians? would they settle for monetary compensation?

I think it's a possibility, but I feel it also depends on the way it's given to them. There are a lot of emotions involved there, so if they are presented the money in the form of, "Ha! We took your land and you couldn't do anything about it, but here's some money out of pity," I doubt anybody would accept that. It also depends on how much money they would receive as compensation.

it is not that no one jewish can live there but the jews are not going to agree to become a minority.

This is a very important point.

i don't think that only secularists and atheists would have a problem - i think everyone would have a problem with accepting a shariah ruled country. don't forget there are also many palestinian christians. for that matter, i'm sure that there are plenty of palestinian muslims that would have no desire to live under shariah.
i think your idea is completely unrealistic. i don't see how you can think for one minute that this scenario is a possibility for a peaceful solution.

From what you say, it's like saying "at the end of the day, it's not about who's Jewish or who's Muslim, it's about who wants to live in a religious state and who wants to live in a secular one." I think that's true to an extent, but I also think that the majority of Palestinians would agree to live in one, but I don't know about Jews.

it will never happen. no one but muslims (and not all muslims, at that) would voluntarily agree to live under shariah.

This is true, but I think people's lack of knowledge about Sharia law contributes to this greatly. People look at it as complete removal of freedom, a dictatorship, whatever, when in reality it's quite the opposite (if it's properly integrated that is). It takes all the things that are wrong with society, even things that people don't know are wrong, and makes them illegal. This might seem constraining, but it's really not once you get used to it. I remember when I first went to Canada, they were really strict with their laws over there. Seatbelts, red lights, speed limits,...a lot different than what I was used to. I didn't like it in the beginning and yes I did feel constrained, but after a while I got used to it and it became second nature. I overlooked the contraints because the country had something good to offer. Now I'm in Egypt and I'm the only one around who fastens his seatbelt. I still drive like a maniac though ;D

The point is, if a country makes itself stand out socially, economically, politically, as just, fair, happy, and peaceful, people will go for it even if they do have to give up public drinking.

Anyways, this was just a random idea. I wanna hear what other people think could be a solution to the problem.

 

[snakelegs]

Do you have anything to support that? As far as I'm aware the European nations had no desire whatsoever for a 'neo-colony' in the Middle East, and Israel has certainly never behaved as one. That doesn't mean there wasn't (by no means universal) support for the establishment of the state of Israel but it shouldn't be forgotten that the boundaries seen as acceptable in 1948 were very different from those of 1967, and today. Most of the land that the Palestinians have any real case for 'returning' to was 'gifted' to Israel by the Arabs (as opposed to 'muslims') in the hopelessly misjudged 1948 war.

no, i don't have anything i can put my finger on to support that and it is an opinion - nothing i can prove. but israel was a foreign implantation of europeans in a non-european region. i don't believe the british mandate for palestine was caused by any great love of jews, but because they thought it would be good to have an outpost of people more like themselves that they could possibly count on, down the line. it was certainly an implant of a very foreign culture. so this is what i meant by my statement and yes, i could be way off. it's been known to happen.

 

[snakelegs]

What if they faced sanctions? Do you think they would compromise then?[/QUOTE]

i am opposed to sanctions - anywhere, against any country because they punish the "little" people
they could be forced to compromise only by the u.s. (since they depend on massive amounts of u.s. aid). i would like to see this happen but it is very unlikely to happen in the forseeable future. but there are definite limits, i think, on what the israel would be willing to compromise and its identity as a jewish state is one of them.

From what you say, it's like saying "at the end of the day, it's not about who's Jewish or who's Muslim, it's about who wants to live in a religious state and who wants to live in a secular one." I think that's true to an extent, but I also think that the majority of Palestinians would agree to live in one, but I don't know about Jews.

the majority of israelis would never agree to living even under a jewish theocracy.

This is true, but I think people's lack of knowledge about Sharia law contributes to this greatly. People look at it as complete removal of freedom, a dictatorship, whatever, when in reality it's quite the opposite (if it's properly integrated that is). It takes all the things that are wrong with society, even things that people don't know are wrong, and makes them illegal. This might seem constraining, but it's really not once you get used to it. I remember when I first went to Canada, they were really strict with their laws over there. Seatbelts, red lights, speed limits,...a lot different than what I was used to. I didn't like it in the beginning and yes I did feel constrained, but after a while I got used to it and it became second nature. I overlooked the contraints because the country had something good to offer. Now I'm in Egypt and I'm the only one around who fastens his seatbelt. I still drive like a maniac though ;D

The point is, if a country makes itself stand out socially, economically, politically, as just, fair, happy, and peaceful, people will go for it even if they do have to give up public drinking.

Anyways, this was just a random idea. I wanna hear what other people think could be a solution to the problem.

obviously, i am a rabid supporter of a secular state. i would be opposed to any kind of theocracy.
maybe if an islamic state comes in to existence in a country that is 100% muslim and provides the world with a great model of society under shariah, people would have a much less negative view of it.
but it is pure fantasy to think that israel (or any other non-muslim majority country) would be willing to accept living under shariah.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

What if they faced sanctions? Do you think they would compromise then?

i am opposed to sanctions - anywhere, against any country because they punish the "little" people
they could be forced to compromise only by the u.s. (since they depend on massive amounts of u.s. aid). i would like to see this happen but it is very unlikely to happen in the forseeable future. but there are definite limits, i think, on what the israel would be willing to compromise and its identity as a jewish state is one of them.




the majority of israelis would never agree to living even under a jewish theocracy.




obviously, i am a rabid supporter of a secular state. i would be opposed to any kind of theocracy.
maybe if an islamic state comes in to existence in a country that is 100% muslim and provides the world with a great model of society under shariah, people would have a much less negative view of it.
but it is pure fantasy to think that israel (or any other non-muslim majority country) would be willing to accept living under shariah.
[/QUOTE]

You do not like sanctions against any people? Then you must take a history of the Taliban, i think they might of had the most since the first year they started.

 

[Skywalker]

i am opposed to sanctions - anywhere, against any country because they punish the "little" people
they could be forced to compromise only by the u.s. (since they depend on massive amounts of u.s. aid). i would like to see this happen but it is very unlikely to happen in the forseeable future. but there are definite limits, i think, on what the israel would be willing to compromise and its identity as a jewish state is one of them.

Well, sactions are basically economic war on a country, and like all wars, they affect the people more than those in power. I think Israel for one could not last very long without US aid. They would be forced into a compromise. Did we just stumble onto a possible non-violent solution to the ME crisis?

the majority of israelis would never agree to living even under a jewish theocracy.

How can you be so sure of that?

maybe if an islamic state comes in to existence in a country that is 100% muslim and provides the world with a great model of society under shariah, people would have a much less negative view of it.

That would be nice to see. We do however have proof from history of the amazing success of Sharia-based countries, but most people just excuse their negativity on "that was then and this is now."

but it is pure fantasy to think that israel (or any other non-muslim majority country) would be willing to accept living under shariah.

Perhaps, but this world is built on ideas that people regarded as pure fantasy.

 

[E'jaazi]

It almost sounds like you would prefer war to anything less than getting exactly what you want in total. Is there nothing less than an Islamic state that you would be willing to accept?

Your profile does not say where you presently live. Is it an Islamic state under pure Sharia law? Or have you learned to live with something other than that after all?

No, I do not live in an Islamic State, but that is not by choice. I do hope to migrate to Medinah is Saudi Arabia one day, Insha Allah. I would accept nothing less because the whole thing is outrageous! That land does not belong to what is NOW called Israel, so why should anyone settle?

 

[Trumble]

That land does not belong to what is NOW called Israel, so why should anyone settle?

Because, in any meaningful way, that's precisely who it now does belong to.

 

[snakelegs]

Well, sactions are basically economic war on a country, and like all wars, they affect the people more than those in power. I think Israel for one could not last very long without US aid. They would be forced into a compromise. Did we just stumble onto a possible non-violent solution to the ME crisis?

this will not happen any time soon. and there would be a limit to how far israel would go to compromise. it will not go so far as to cease to exist - why would it?

How can you be so sure of that?

i think it is "general knowledge" that the majority of israelis have no desire whatsoever to live in a theocracy - not even a jewish one, let alone an islamic one.

That would be nice to see. We do however have proof from history of the amazing success of Sharia-based countries, but most people just excuse their negativity on "that was then and this is now."

again, if a country with 100% muslim population establishes a society based on shariah and if the world could see it as a model society - all the great stuff muslims claim for shariah, maybe attitudes would change and it would be respected. but you will find almost no non-muslims at all who would want to live in a shariah ruled country, no matter how great it might be for muslims. can't you see that? personally, i would not consent to live in any country ruled by any religion.

Perhaps, but this world is built on ideas that people regarded as pure fantasy.

quite true!

 

[Skywalker]

this will not happen any time soon. and there would be a limit to how far israel would go to compromise. it will not go so far as to cease to exist - why would it?

LOL - "We are putting you under sanctions until you cease to exist."
I don't think anybody wants it to go that far, but what the Arab League and the Palestinians want (and a big part of the international community) is for Israel to pull back to the 1967 borders and to allow Palestinians the right to return. I don't think that that's asking too much, especially if Israel could set the number of Palestinians that they would allow back and compansate the rest through money. A compromise could be reached, and I hardly think economic sanctions should even be an issue. Israel is creating problems for no apparent reason.

i think it is "general knowledge" that the majority of israelis have no desire whatsoever to live in a theocracy - not even a jewish one, let alone an islamic one.

Is there any proof to support that knowledge? If so, then why would these "secular Jews" care so much about having a Jewish state if they could just as easity adapt to any secular society. Is it a nationalistic thing?

again, if a country with 100% muslim population establishes a society based on shariah and if the world could see it as a model society - all the great stuff muslims claim for shariah, maybe attitudes would change and it would be respected.

I'd love to see that, but unfortunately, even if a country is a heaven on earth, those who don't like it and are in power can make it look like hell.

but you will find almost no non-muslims at all who would want to live in a shariah ruled country, no matter how great it might be for muslims. can't you see that?

Not really, no. How come a lot of non-Muslims travel to Saudi Arabia to work? And it's not even close to what a real Sharia country should be like.

i would not consent to live in any country ruled by any religion.

I think that's because you're just not used to the idea or haven't seen a proper example of it. What if a Sharia country presented itself with long sandy beaches, tall futuristic skyscapers, a booming economy with plenty of work opportunities, happy people, etc. and you saw this kind of ad on tv., would you still be as negative about it? I'm just using an exaggerated example by the way...

 

[wilberhum]

Is there any proof to support that knowledge?

I did a pole a while back. Not one single non-Muslim wanted to live in any kind of theocracy. Only 1 Muslim said they would want to live in a non-Islamic theocracy.

How come a lot of non-Muslims travel to Saudi Arabia to work? And it's not even close to what a real Sharia country should be like.

Money!
In response to "i would not consent to live in any country ruled by any religion." you said:

I think that's because you're just not used to the idea or haven't seen a proper example of it.

The fact that I have never seen a proper example of it is not the reason, it is the evidence. Evidence that it can't be done. Even if you find an example, I would rather live under Communism.

 

[snakelegs]

LOL - "We are putting you under sanctions until you cease to exist."
I don't think anybody wants it to go that far, but what the Arab League and the Palestinians want (and a big part of the international community) is for Israel to pull back to the 1967 borders and to allow Palestinians the right to return. I don't think that that's asking too much, especially if Israel could set the number of Palestinians that they would allow back and compansate the rest through money. A compromise could be reached, and I hardly think economic sanctions should even be an issue. Israel is creating problems for no apparent reason.

yes, i would like the settlements to be disbanded and israel to pull back to the '67 borders too ifisrael could be sure that it wasn't committing suicide by doing that. there is certainly room for compromise; i agree. it is just that your solution - one happy state under shariah - is totally ludicrous. the u.s. could (but won't anytime soon) play a very important role in this process because of all the $ it gives to israel. israel might agree to some of the palestinians coming back, but if so, the number would me miniscule. it does not want to change the demographics of itself as a jewish state.

Is there any proof to support that knowledge? If so, then why would these "secular Jews" care so much about having a Jewish state if they could just as easity adapt to any secular society. Is it a nationalistic thing?

zionism is a political movement that uses religion. so yes, it is a "nationalistic" thing - the jews, like the muslims, consider themselves to be a people ("am" - which is the hebrew equivalent of ummah).

I'd love to see that, but unfortunately, even if a country is a heaven on earth, those who don't like it and are in power can make it look like hell.

true.

Not really, no. How come a lot of non-Muslims travel to Saudi Arabia to work? And it's not even close to what a real Sharia country should be like.

mainly because of poverty and lack of work in their own countries. from what i hear, they are not treated very well, including the south asian muslims that live and work there.

I think that's because you're just not used to the idea or haven't seen a proper example of it. What if a Sharia country presented itself with long sandy beaches, tall futuristic skyscapers, a booming economy with plenty of work opportunities, happy people, etc. and you saw this kind of ad on tv., would you still be as negative about it? I'm just using an exaggerated example by the way...

lol - i could care less about skyscrapers, booming economy, beaches, etc. etc. and i haven't seen the ads cuz i don't have a tv. (i'm a shack-in-the-desert type of person.)
but i would like to see such a country as you described, living under shariah. if there was such a successful model of an islamic state i would think that was fine - as long as the state was 100% muslim before it adapted shariah and as long as that was the will of the people.
but it certainly isn't for me and i think you would find it impossible to sell the idea to israeli jews, as well as a significant number of palestinians.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

yes, i would like the settlements to be disbanded and israel to pull back to the '67 borders too ifisrael could be sure that it wasn't committing suicide by doing that. there is certainly room for compromise; i agree. it is just that your solution - one happy state under shariah - is totally ludicrous. the u.s. could (but won't anytime soon) play a very important role in this process because of all the $ it gives to israel. israel might agree to some of the palestinians coming back, but if so, the number would me miniscule. it does not want to change the demographics of itself as a jewish state.




zionism is a political movement that uses religion. so yes, it is a "nationalistic" thing - the jews, like the muslims, consider themselves to be a people ("am" - which is the hebrew equivalent of ummah).




true.




mainly because of poverty and lack of work in their own countries. from what i hear, they are not treated very well, including the south asian muslims that live and work there.




lol - i could care less about skyscrapers, booming economy, beaches, etc. etc. and i haven't seen the ads cuz i don't have a tv. (i'm a shack-in-the-desert type of person.)
but i would like to see such a country as you described, living under shariah. if there was such a successful model of an islamic state i would think that was fine - as long as the state was 100% muslim before it adapted shariah and as long as that was the will of the people.
but it certainly isn't for me and i think you would find it impossible to sell the idea to israeli jews, as well as a significant number of palestinians.

bro ill hook u up with a tv

 

[snakelegs]

lol no thanks! don't want one.
i meant that i was the live-in-the-desert type of person - as opposed to the description skywalker was making, which doesn't have any appeal to me at all.