A solution to Israel?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Skywalker
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 98
  • Views Views 11K
In which society were women punished for being outside with a male escort? Whipped for being raped? Carrying capital punishment? Name me one Sharia Legitament that has done it. According to the Majority of Scholars, the Taliban was the only true Established Islamic State based on Sharia After the fall of the Ottoman.

I'm not sure what countries "actually" follow Sharia, but here we go (I have a video of executions of a women under the Taliban but it is graphic so I will not post it.


<B>
Women in Saudi Arabia who walk unaccompanied, or are in the company of a man who is neither their husband nor a close relative, are at risk of arrest on suspicion of prostitution or other "moral" offences.
Nieves, a Filipina who was working as a maid in Riyadh in 1992, was invited by a married couple to celebrate the wife's birthday at a restaurant. She and a female friend decided to go. At the restaurant they were joined by a male friend of the couple. A group of mutawa'een (religious police) entered the restaurant, saw the group and arrested them. They suspected Nieves of being there for an introduction to the male friend of the couple. Nieves denied the accusation, but was deceived into signing a confession written in Arabic which she understood was a release order. That confession was the sole basis of her conviction and sentence - 25 days' imprisonment and 60 lashes which were carried out.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/4.html
<H3>Saudi court sentences rape 'victim' to 90 lashes
News – A Saudi court has sentenced a gang rape victim to 90 lashes of the whip because she was alone in a car with a man to whom she was not married.
http://news.netscape.com/story/2006/11/05/saudi-court-sentences-rape-victim-to-90-lashes/
</H3>
In October 1996 a woman had the tip of her thumb cut off for wearing nail varnish.
Michael Griffin (2001). Reaping the Whirlwind: The Taliban movement in Afghanistan. London: Pluto Press, pp6-11/159-165.
  • In December 1996 Radio Shari’a announced that 225 Kabul women had been seized and punished for violating the sharia code of dress. The sentence was handed down by tribunal and the women were lashed on their legs and backs for their misdemeanor.[11]
  • In March 1997 a married woman, from Laghman Province was caught attempting to flee the district with another man. The Islamic tribunal found her guilty of adultery and condemned both her and her lover to death by stoning.[12]
  • In May 1997, 5 female CARE International employees with authorisation from the Ministry of the Interior to conduct research for an emergency feeding programme were forced from their vehicle by members of the religious police. The guards used a public address system to insult and harass the women before striking them with a metal and leather whip over 1.5 meters in length. Nancy Hatch Dupree. 'Afghan Women under the Taliban' in William Maley (2001). Fundamentalism Reborn? Afghanistan and the Taliban. London: Hurst and Company, pp145-166.
  • In 1999, a mother of five, was executed in front of 30,000 spectators in Kabul’s Olympic stadium for the murder of her abusive husband. She was imprisoned for 3 years and extensively tortured prior to the execution, yet she refused to plead her innocence in a bid to protect her daughter, reportedly the actual culprit.[13]
  1. When a Taliban raid discovered a woman running an informal school in her apartment they beat the children, threw her down a flight of stairs causing her to break her leg, and then imprisoned her. They threatened to publicly stone her family if she didn't sign a declaration of loyalty to the Taliban and its laws. Latifa (2002). My forbidden face: Growing up under the Taliban. UK: Virago Press pp29-107.
    • Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). "Some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afghanistan". Retrieved on 2007 April 2.
</B>
 
I'm not sure what countries "actually" follow Sharia, but here we go (I have a video of executions of a women under the Taliban but it is graphic so I will not post it.


<B>
</H3>
In October 1996 a woman had the tip of her thumb cut off for wearing nail varnish.
Michael Griffin (2001). Reaping the Whirlwind: The Taliban movement in Afghanistan. London: Pluto Press, pp6-11/159-165.
  • In December 1996 Radio Shari’a announced that 225 Kabul women had been seized and punished for violating the sharia code of dress. The sentence was handed down by tribunal and the women were lashed on their legs and backs for their misdemeanor.[11]
  • In March 1997 a married woman, from Laghman Province was caught attempting to flee the district with another man. The Islamic tribunal found her guilty of adultery and condemned both her and her lover to death by stoning.[12]
  • In May 1997, 5 female CARE International employees with authorisation from the Ministry of the Interior to conduct research for an emergency feeding programme were forced from their vehicle by members of the religious police. The guards used a public address system to insult and harass the women before striking them with a metal and leather whip over 1.5 meters in length. Nancy Hatch Dupree. 'Afghan Women under the Taliban' in William Maley (2001). Fundamentalism Reborn? Afghanistan and the Taliban. London: Hurst and Company, pp145-166.
  • In 1999, a mother of five, was executed in front of 30,000 spectators in Kabul’s Olympic stadium for the murder of her abusive husband. She was imprisoned for 3 years and extensively tortured prior to the execution, yet she refused to plead her innocence in a bid to protect her daughter, reportedly the actual culprit.[13]
  1. When a Taliban raid discovered a woman running an informal school in her apartment they beat the children, threw her down a flight of stairs causing her to break her leg, and then imprisoned her. They threatened to publicly stone her family if she didn't sign a declaration of loyalty to the Taliban and its laws. Latifa (2002). My forbidden face: Growing up under the Taliban. UK: Virago Press pp29-107.
    • Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). "Some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afghanistan". Retrieved on 2007 April 2.
</B>


Hmmm

RAWA? The communist backed Womens Media?

The video execution of the female, you seem to not put the full story. She killed her husband rather than divorcing, then slept with one of her children.

Michael Griffin? Lol you have to be kidding me.

The women fleeing Laghman, was caught in the sexual act, then was running with her husband rather than facing Punishment.

And those Care International was also responsible for spreading messages of Christianity which is why they were taken out. They struck them for spreading Christianity when they were caught, the religious police went looking for them.

Also, you seem to forget to mention the impact of the Liberated Afghanistan under Democracy.

http://www.rawa.org/gulsha.htm

(Northern Alliance commanders responsible for the kidnap and rape of Afghan women in Liberated Afghanistan)

http://www.rawa.org/rostaq.htm

(Warlord Killing a 7 year old boy after Liberated Afghanistan)

There are Thousands of cases compared to your few cases of abuses(You view them as abuses, but we view them as punishments)

Why hide these?

Were you even in Kabul before the Taliban arrived?

Women were climbing stories to commit suicide because of the anarchy, but no you fail to mention the truth.

The Taliban, Education and Health Policy Toward Girls. (untold Truth)



"According to a survey by the Swedish Comittie for Afghanistan (SCA), 80% of girls schools were located in rural afghanistan and under the Taliban were operating in full swing. Ms Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the SCA, said 85% of girls were stil in schools. In Kunduz Province, under the Taliban, 122 girls schools were operating, with 390 registered female teachers!"

The Taliban were the prime target in an Anti-Islamic drive in the media, to prepare the public for war against them.
All the women who shrill at the burqa, were silent when 2 million afghans died from Russian bombs, they were silent went 500'000 afghans were maimed by mines, and were silent about thousands of women who were raped before the Taliban came to power.
General Hamid who lived under the Taliban for several years.
There has been no campaign aimed at beating women in public, and there has been no ban on education for women. Only a restriction on co-education.
There are many lies on "respected websites about the "suffering" of Afghan women, yet there are no dates, names, places or anything other form of verification. Hamid gul says he found women almost always-outnumbered men in the streets and market places.
The Afghan women protesting in the west come from the Khalq and parcham factions of Afghan communists. They represent a tiny fraction of the population.
The Taliban were extra strict on these communist women to ensure they didn’t cause friction and trouble and stir up trouble. The women only had to wear the Burqa in the streets, at home; they were free to dress as they pleased. According to a female nurse, women in hospitals rarely wore the burqa or even hijab as there were no men present.
According to a survey by the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan (SCA), 80% of girl’s schools were located in rural Afghanistan and under the Taliban were operating in full swing. Ms Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the SCA, said 85% of girls were still in schools. In Kunduz Province, under the Taliban, 122 girls schools were operating, with 390 registered female teachers!
Prior to Taliban rule, there were 350 beds in Kabul for women. In august 2001, there were 950 beds for women in women only hospitals in Kabul. Some women only hospitals include Rabia Balkhi Hospital, Malali Hospital, Khair Khana Hospital, Indira Gandhi Health Hospital, Atta Turk Hospital, Kuwait Red Crescent health Centre and a Contagios Disease Health Clinic! There were also 32 Mother and Child clinics.
In addition, the women received treatment at the ICRC and Sanday Gal Orthopaedic Centres. In All these hospitals and centres, only women doctors and nurses worked providing health care.
Yet the Sun, Dailey express, New York Times, and all these tabloid press agencies never reported any of this, neither did the BBC, CNN, Fox news etc. It was part of a campaign of lies and deception to turn the public against the Taliban.
You were told women couldn’t work, women could not go out the house, that women could not go to school, or even go to hospitals, well the facts are proving otherwise.

American Journalists set the Story Straight on Afghanistan

Taken from official Taleban Web-Site http://www.taleban.com/News_american_journalists_set_the_sto.htm

In a break with the status quo, a number of American journalists have begun to speak about Afghanistan in an open and unbiased manner. The journalists, most of whom have made extended visits to the country, are refuting the misinformation that is regularly spread by the international media. They include Mike Hoover, a producer for the CBS television network, and Cindy Law, a freelance female reporter who recently took a month-long trip to Afghanistan. Both are working on documentary films and gave interviews to the Voice of America's Pashto language service.

Hoover has been fascinated with Afghanistan for years and made frequent visits there during the Jihad against the Soviets, described his dismay when the factional fighting began in Kabul after the collapse of the Communist regime. Then, when the Taliban took power and peace was restored, the Western press quickly turned against Afghanistan and the smear campaign against the Taliban started. Hoover started to find out more, but, as he said:

"I could never find anything where the Taliban tell us what their thoughts are and what they are really doing. It was just other people talking about them without them ever speaking out. After talking to a couple of people who were over there and had exactly the opposite opinion of the Taliban, it seemed to me that it might be good for CBS to go over there to see for itself, to hear from Taliban about who they are and what they are trying to do, and to observe whether their goals are implemented or are just political talk."

The journalists says that before going to Afghanistan, he half-suspected that the reports that permeate the Western media might be true. But those suspicions were forgotten upon his arrival on Afghan soil. The first thing that he noticed and was surprised by was that there were no weapons and no armed men.

Hoover spent a month in the country, traveling from Kandahar to Kabul. He refuted the Western image of the Taliban as being ignorant. He saw them as being fully aware of both Afghan and world politics.

"When you speak to them on any subject, you realize how bright these guys are. It was surprising….you would learn that the guy you were talking to was only 26 years old when you thought you were talking to someone with the wisdom of a fifty year-old. I was very impressed." Hoover added.

He said that all those that he met there during his trip, whether young or old, were extremely happy about the security situation.

"People were happy that there was security, that there was no rocketing, that there was safety, that you didn't have any worries about crime as you did before."

When asked about the Taliban's harshness, he said, "On certain things, the Taliban are very strict…..I think it is fair. If you commit a crime, you will be punished for it. The punishment is, in my view, fair and swift."

Hoover was surprised by the fact that there is no formality, no red tape in Afghanistan-any one can see the ministers to hand in his petition or idea, and it will be acted upon swiftly. He said that the ministers that he saw didn't even look like ministers. They were dressed in the same way as the average person, and some even wore old clothes and well-worn shoes.

One thing that Hoover saw everywhere and was bothered by was the poverty and hardship, which has been compounded by UN sanctions. He deplored the twisted logic of the sanctions, saying:

"They destroyed their own country fighting the Soviets. They fought bravely. And now, instead of helping them or at least leaving them alone to rebuild, the world is imposing sanctions on them."

Hoover said that he hopes that other journalists and officials travel to Afghanistan with open minds to see the reality and analyze the situation themselves. People must not let themselves be deceived by biased second-hand information, he stated. If the truth was revealed, he said, then he is certain that the sanctions will be dropped and that, instead of confrontation with the Taliban, the world would help them. Hoover's comments are echoed by Law, who said that she had heard all sorts of things about Afghanistan, especially about the Taliban's treatment of women, so she decided go to the country to see for herself. Law spent more than a week in Kandahar and three weeks in Kabul, speaking to women from all walks of life, including female doctors and nurses. She said that while they had many concerns, the burqa (veil) was not one of them.

"Their major concerns, I would have to say, were the sanctions and war. All Afghans pleaded for the United States and the United Nations to end the sanctions and help rebuild their country. They also asked for medical, food, and financial aid."

Afghan women told Law that their first need, after economic assistance, is education for their children. In regards to female education, Law said that she saw some school for girls in homes, especially in Kandahar, and girls studying in mosques. "Taliban officials assured Law that once the war is over, they would turn their attention to the many issues facing the nation, including women's education and employment. She said that she saw work already beginning on some girl's schools in Kandahar."

Scoffing at the misconception held by many that Afghan women are prisoners in their homes, Law stated, "There are many women working in the hospitals and health care, and they comprise most of the women that I talked to. And I saw women walking around in the markets."

Law said that the world must realize that Afghanistan has been devastated by two decades of war, and that its infrastructure has been destroyed. She added that the international concern about the plight of Afghan women is to be appreciated, but "I think the best way to help the women of Afghanistan is to encourage the removal of sanctions. They are hurting the Afghan people, especially the women. And more humanitarian aid should be provided- medical, economic, etc."

Other American media outlets are also challenging the propaganda campaign that is being waged against the Islamic Emirate. The San Jose (California) Mercury, a daily newspaper, published comments made by a female Muslim student leader, Sara Azad, who said:

"The fact is, women in Afghanistan are now protected and their rights are guaranteed. Because no right comes before the right to life, and today they have that right."

Azad added that she receives letters from her grandmother in Afghanistan, who writes that Afghan women have never felt safer than they do now.
 
Last edited:
rebelishaulman said:
I don't see Sharia law and Torah law as being similar. At least from the idea I get about Sharia law. However, I really do not see Judaism and Islam being similar.
This is where we greatly differ in opinion. I for one see Judaism the closest religion to Islam, even moreso than Christianity. As for your view on Sharia, given your examples I can tell you don't know much about it other than the typical propaganda, which tends to use examples of the worst kinds of people doing bad things in the name of Sharia law, whereas it couldn't be further from the reality of what it is.

The fact that Judaism accepts the death penalty as a valid form of criminal punishment in some cases goes a long way in creating just one similarity between the two judicial systems. However:

rebelishaulman said:
-Caught in the act by two witnesses.
-Warned while in the process of commiting the crime that it is a death penalty crime.
-Then the person must acknowledge they heard the witnesses warning.
-Then if they continue after the warning they will be put to death
With all due respect to your religion, I fail to see the logic of what you said. Islam also calls for witnesses in some cases, but definetely not asking telling someone that they're doing something wrong while they're in the process of doing their crime. You expect a rapist to stop raping if you just tell him that it's wrong? I think he knows that before he does it...

As for the "myths" that you mentioned:

Whips women for being raped sometimes
No sir. This doesn't even make sense. If a man is found guilty of rape he is sentenced to death and obviously nothing happens to the woman, BUT if evidence of that case turns it into one of aduletery or fornication, then both are punished accordingly. Either way, capital punishment cases are very carefully examined, usually going on for many months and even years before a verdict is reached.

Punisheshed women for being out of the house without a male family escort.
I know that a woman should go to places with an escort, but I've never heard of them being punished for not going with one. Can anyone confirm that there is an actual penalty for this in Islam?

Carries out capital punishment so frequently.
The frequency depends on the number of cases of a specific crime. Murder, rape, aduletry, child molestation, these are all punishable by death in Sharia, but it doesn't mean that people do them frequently. In fact, because the punishments are so severe, very few people even think about committing any of those crimes.

As for the stories that you posted: I've read a lot of them and I tell you now that you're:

a) not getting or are not presenting the whole story in each case
b) unaware that torture, abuse, and all those things mentioned are totally 100% AGAINST Shariah

There was one case that seems justified from the look of it, and that is the one with the couple committing adultery and getting put to death for it.

I suggest you read up a little more on what "real Sharia" is before jumping to conclusions based on the actions of those who claim to practice it while not practicing it at all...

wilberhum said:
See it seams like no Jew nor any Muslim wants a solution. It is very difficult to find what you arn't looking for.
To be honest, I think it's only the people occupying Israel that don't want a solution. The whole rest of the world wants one.
 
To be honest, I think it's only the people occupying Israel that don't want a solution. The whole rest of the world wants one.
Standard! It is all the other guys falt.
 
What exactly are you suggesting? A Palestinian state with a Sharia form of government?, or are you suggesting the end of Israel and a takeover by Arabs who will form a Sharia state?

Not really a takeover but to get back "stolen" lands.
 
but definetely not asking telling someone that they're doing something wrong while they're in the process of doing their crime. You expect a rapist to stop raping if you just tell him that it's wrong? I think he knows that before he does it...

It isn't that they will stop, it is a matter of wat punishment one gets. Capital punishment is rarely used in Jewish law, although there are punishments for all crimes, but they are not used unless the witnesses warn the person that they are violating the law. If that does not happen, then prison or exile is the proper punishment. Not death.

Islam would practice complete capital punishment which makes it respond to violent crimes with heavy violence which differs from the way the Torah teaches us to handle life, since G-d will judge all in the end.

Not really a takeover but to get back "stolen" lands.

Will you give back the "stolen" lands Muslims conquered from pagans?
 
Last edited:
wilberhum said:
Standard! It is all the other guys falt.
Well let's look at the facts: they forced people off their land and out of their homes, they've disregarded almost every single agreement made with the international community including the ceasation of the expansion of settlements, they make regular incursions into the West Bank and Gaza (and let's not forget Lebanon) killing civilians in the process, and are totally closed-minded about accepting any kind of deal that the whole world sees as fair, like the latest one presented by the Arab League. So you still want to tell me that it's the rest of the world that doesn't want peace?
 
Well let's look at the facts: they forced people off their land and out of their homes, they've disregarded almost every single agreement made with the international community including the ceasation of the expansion of settlements, they make regular incursions into the West Bank and Gaza (and let's not forget Lebanon) killing civilians in the process, and are totally closed-minded about accepting any kind of deal that the whole world sees as fair, like the latest one presented by the Arab League. So you still want to tell me that it's the rest of the world that doesn't want peace?
Thanks for confirming what I stated.
 
wilberhum said:
Thanks for confirming what I stated.
I presented you with the truth of the situation; if you think it's purely objective and only Muslims see it that way, well I can't say I agree with that.

lavikor said:
It isn't that they will stop, it is a matter of wat punishment one gets. Capital punishment is rarely used in Jewish law, although there are punishments for all crimes, but they are not used unless the witnesses warn the person that they are violating the law. If that does not happen, then prison or exile is the proper punishment. Not death.
Just out of curiosity, what if there is indesputable evidence that a criminal committed a crime worthy of a death penalty, but no witnesses? Would he still be executed? Secondly, Islam calls for certain "qualifications" I guess you can say for the witnesses. They have to be known as honest, pious members of the community, otherwise they could just as easily lie in court since they don't fear the hereafter either way. Is there a similar requirement in Judaism?

lavikor said:
Islam would practice complete capital punishment which makes it respond to violent crimes with heavy violence
I don't know if it's really "heavy violence". I personally see beheading as a lot more humane than electrocution or lethal injections, both of which have had cases of people surviving and having to go through process twice. Yuck.
 
I presented you with the truth of the situation; if you think it's purely objective and only Muslims see it that way, well I can't say I agree with that.
The problem is not that you didn't present the truth. The problem is you did not present ALL of the truth. You only present facts that support your point of view. Totally one sided.
The truth is that both have done some horrable things and both block efforts for peace.
 
Well let's look at the facts: they forced people off their land and out of their homes, they've disregarded almost every single agreement made with the international community including the ceasation of the expansion of settlements, they make regular incursions into the West Bank and Gaza (and let's not forget Lebanon) killing civilians in the process, and are totally closed-minded about accepting any kind of deal that the whole world sees as fair, like the latest one presented by the Arab League. So you still want to tell me that it's the rest of the world that doesn't want peace?

I complelty disagree. Most of the land was purchased by Jews, and the land that was stolen should be returned of course, just like the land that Arabs atacked Jews and stole as well.
What did the Zionists do to build a country during the Mandate Period?

Inspired by the Zionist ideal, supported by Zionist funds, operating under conditions made possible by Zionist political effort, thousands of Jews migrated from Europe to Palestine and there set about incarnating the ancient dream of return to Israel. They were not encouraged by fellow Jews or anyone else. The were assured that Palestine was an arid, backward country where Jews could not survive, let alone be creative; and that in any case it could absorb no more than a handful of settlers. Discouraged from all sides, grappling with heartbreaking difficulties, these Jews accomplished the impossible.

In one generation Zionists purchased underdeveloped, underutilized land and built a community of almost 600,000 persons, free and self-reliant. European Jews who had lost all rapport with soil and workshop came to Palestine to become farmers, mechanics, sailors, and fishermen. They caused the desert to blossom and turned villages into cities. They introduced modernity and democracy into the slumbering Near East.
In February 1919, the Zionist Organization presented a "Statement on Palestine" to the Paris Peace Conference. It included material showing the substantial Zionist investment in Palestine and the dramatic progress to date, for example:
  • Jewish activities, particularly during the last thirty years, have been directed to Palestine within the measure that the Turkish administrative system allowed. Some millions of pounds sterling have been spent in the country, particularly in the foundation of agricultural settlements. These settlements have been, for the most part, highly successful. With enterprise and skill the Jews have adopted modern scientific methods and have shown themselves to be capable agriculturalists. Hebrew has been revived as a living language; it is the medium of instruction in the schools and the tongue is in daily use among the rising generation. The foundations of a Jewish University have been laid at Jerusalem and considerable funds have been contributed for the creation of its building and for its endowment. Since the British occupation the Zionist Organization has expended in Palestine approximately BP50,000 a month upon relief, education and sanitation. To promote the future development of the country, great sums will be needed for drainage, irrigation, roads, railways, harbors and public works of all kinds, as well as for land settlement and house building.
Winston Churchill was British Colonial Secretary when he visited the Middle East in the winter of 1920-1921. Anti-Semitic elements in the British government tried to assert that the Jews were not needed to develop Palestine. Churchill replied:
  • "Left to themselves, the Arabs of Palestine would not in a thousand years have taken effective steps towards the irrigation and electrification of Palestine. They would have been quite content to dwell—a handful of philosophic people—in wasted sun-drenched plains, letting the waters of the Jordan flow unbridled and unharnessed into the Dead Sea."
Additional material on the impact of the Zionists on the land of Palestine is available here.

Development of education at all levels was a priority for the Zionists. Three of the seven institutions of higher learning were founded before the State of Israel: the Technion in Haifa (founded in 1924), the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (1925), and the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot (1934). Today, there are about one million Jewish children in thousands of schools, with close to 100,000 teachers, in Israel. The state education system has a general stream (non-religious) with about 70% of the children, a religious stream (23%), and schools run by the ultra-religious (including a few in Yiddish). There are now seven institutions of higher learning including the above and Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan (1955), Tel Aviv University (1956), Haifa University (1963), and Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva (1969). There is also an open university and more than 200 yeshivot.

In expressions of culture, the Zionists were active as well. In the 1920's Tel Aviv had only about two-thousand inhabitants, but in January 1922 the "Hebrew Opera in Eretz Israel" performed in the city with soloists and a choir, and only a few months later, the opera Faust was performed, completely staged, though only accompanied by piano. The Palestine Orchestra, now the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, was founded in 1936.

And the Zionists developed the organizational infrastructure of a country that prepared for a modern state to come into being in 1948. Political parties, labor organizations, and national institutions long pre-dated the State of Israel. To this day, the modern Labor party is an extension of the Histadrut, founded by Ben-Gurion in the 1920s, whereas the modern Likud party is an extension of the Revisionists, formed by Jabotinsky in the same time frame. By 1939 the Jewish authorities in Palestine governed their own people. In contrast, the Arab leaders never considered nation-building. Their entire program was negative: to prevent the Jews from establishing themselves in Palestine under any circumstances.

Were the Zionists the same as colonialists?

Michael Anbar Ph.D.
Edited by palestinefacts.org
It is often claimed that the settlement of Jews in the Land of Israel is actually colonialism. This is heard from Arab sources, from European socialists, from some American academicians, and even from some "liberal" Jewish circles in the US and academic "neo-historians" in Israel.
The term "Colonialism" has a strong negative connotation, e.g., British colonialism in India and South Africa, French colonialism in North and West Africa; these followed Dutch, Belgian, Portuguese and Spanish colonialism all over the globe. Colonialism has been disgracefully associated with brutal oppression and exploitation of native populations. The recent economic globalization, spearheaded by the USA has been defined by some liberals as "neocolonialism", to make it despicable. But there is nothing in common between historic colonialism or even "neocolonialism" and the resettlement of the Land of Israel by Jews following the Zionist ideology.
The Britannica defines colonialism as follows:
  • A political-economic phenomenon beginning about the year 1500 whereby various European nations discovered, conquered, settled, and exploited large areas of the world. ["Colonialism," Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition]
This definition excludes ancient Phoenician and Greek colonialism, which aimed to establish bridgeheads for commerce, and Roman classical colonialism that set up strategic defensive outposts by settlements of military veterans.
There are five characteristic elements in European colonialism:
  1. All colonial powers were motivated and driven by material profits to the mother country. Material gain could be achieved either by plundering the local treasures or by exploitation of local natural resources (including labor) and transferring them to the mother country, or by opening captive markets for products of the colonizing country.
  2. Conquest of colonies by military force; this was typical of traditional European colonialism ("gunboat diplomacy").
  3. Maintaining the rule of the colonizing power over the local population by garrisons (i.e., revolving military units) generally under the command of colonial military governors.
  4. Imposing the culture of the colonizing power (i.e., language, religion, legal system, etc.) on the local native population, generally by force.
  5. Export of surplus or undesirable populations of the colonizing power to certain colonial territories (e.g., Libya, Algeria, Australia).
The Zionist ideology advocates the return of Jews to the land of their ancestors from which they were exiled by brutal military conquests. There were two such major exiles in Jewish history - in 586 BCE and six hundred fifty-eight years later, in 72 AD. Both exiles were associated with the total destruction of Jerusalem, the ancient Jewish capital, and the demolition of its temple. The eastern hill of Jerusalem where the citadel captured by King David once stood, south of the Temple Mound, has been called Mount Zion. This name became synonymous with Jerusalem; hence Zionism.
Quoting the Britannica again:
  • Although Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the late 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient and deep-felt nationalist attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to Palestine, the promised land where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion. This attachment to Zion continued to inspire the Jews throughout the Middle Ages and found its expression in many important parts of their liturgy. ["Zionism," Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition]
Zionism has emerged even earlier than cited in the Britannica. Psalm 137:
  • Besides the streams of Babylon we sat and wept at the memory of Zion … Jerusalem, if I forget you, may my right hand wither, may I never speak again, if I forget you!
The Psalm is a twenty-five hundred years old Zionist expression. Nehemiah, who came to Jerusalem about 440 BCE, giving up a high position in the Persian court, was a Zionist and so was Hillel who emigrated from Mesopotamia four hundred years later. So was Judah Halevi, the philosopher poet who wrote:
  • Better a day in the land of God than a thousand on foreign soil, the ruins on the Holy mount than coronation halls...
Halevi immigrated to Israel in 1141. So were hundreds of Jewish Rabbis who immigrated to Israel in 1211, followed by Nahmanides is 1267. And so were hundreds of other Jewish spiritual leaders and scholars and thousands of their followers who came to the Land of Israel over hundreds of years, way before the modern political Zionist movement was even born.

As a result of the perpetual yearning of the Jewish people for the Land of Israel, Jewish communities existed there continuously since the destruction of the Second Temple to date, notwithstanding its destroyed or occupied capital. Obviously, there were Jewish communities in that land since the emergence of the Judaic nation with its unique culture, about thirteen hundred years earlier. The presence of Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Christian Crusaders and Muslim Ottomans in their homeland, did not prevent Jews from maintaining their presence there. It definitely did not reduce the aspiration to regain possession of their land and to rebuild their ancient capital.
In the twentieth Century, those aspirations evolved from spiritual to political. The immigration of thousands of individual Jews, who followed the modern Zionist ideology, to the Land of Israel since the eighties of the 19th Century, led to the establishment of a politically independent Jewish state in 1948 and to the liberation of Jerusalem in 1967.

Now where is the analogy with colonialism? The Jews who immigrated to the Land of Israel over the millennia never represented an alien colonizing power. French Jews who immigrated to the Land of Israel did not do this for the sake of France, Russian Jews did not represent the colonial ambitions of Russia, German Jews did not have the economic welfare of Germany in mind, and so on. The only remote analogy of the establishment of peaceful settlements in another country by a persecuted minority is that of the Pilgrims in 1620; but even they had no historical claims to the land they made their new home.
Moreover, Jewish immigrants throughout the centuries did not grab land by force; they purchased it. Only the brutal War of Survival of 1948, which was initiated by the Arabs, changed this trend forcing the Israelis to confiscate Arab land to maintain their survival in a hostile region. Jews obviously did not plunder their own land for the benefit of any foreign colonial power. They did not impose Judaism on the local Arab population. The current practice of the Hebrew language by many Arabs is a matter of convenience for those who wish to maintain ties with the technologically advanced Israeli economy. Even in terms of globalization, the State of Israel is not a domineering force, definitely not when it comes to the local Arabs.

So where in the world did Israeli Jews practice colonialism in any sense? This is a myth disseminated by the same Palestinian Arabs who claim that the existence of the Jewish temple in their ancient capital is a Zionist myth. My only remaining question is why do some Americans and even some Jews buy these incredible Arab claims?
 
Why was almost 80% of the Mandate territory of Palestine given to Arab Jordan?

The British underwent a change of heart about the establishment of the Palestine Mandate. The reasons were related to political developments that had taken place in the region between 1920 and 1922. The result was that Abdullah, an Arab from the Hejaz (now Saudi Arabia), was abruptly installed as the Emir of Transjordan by the British. In a British memorandum presented to the League of Nations on 16 September 1922, it was declared that the provisions of the Mandate document calling for the establishment of a Jewish national home were not applicable to the territory known as Transjordan (today called Jordan), thereby severing almost 80% of the Mandate land from any possible Jewish Homeland.

The world seems to have plunged into historical amnesia about this. Most people somehow forgot that Arab claims towards Palestine were already satisfied once. It is the Jews and not the Arabs who suffered from the "game" that was played between the Great Powers after World War I. International lawyer David Fromkin described these events in his book A Peace To End All Peace. Fromkin wrote:
  • Britain feared that if Arabs from the territory of British Palestine were to attack the French in Syria, France would retaliate by invading British Palestine.
Thus, Winston Churchill opted for a "Hashemite solution." He decided to "buy off [Prince] Abdullah: to offer him a position in Transjordan." Churchill brought a memorandum to the March, 1921 Cairo Conference, which envisaged:
  • ... establishing a Jewish National Home in Palestine west of the Jordan and a separate Arab entity in Palestine east of the Jordan. Abdullah, if installed in authority in Transjordan, could preside over the creation of such an Arab entity.
Churchill disregarded important objections that "since Transjordan had been included by the League of Nations in the territory of [mandated] Palestine, it was not open to Britain unilaterally to separate it from the rest of Palestine." In order to silence Churchill's opponents, Britain accepted a "compromise concept of Transjordan: while preserving the Arab character of area and administration to treat it as an Arab province or adjunct of Palestine."
It is important to indicate that the British Colonial Office regarded "the administrative separation of Transjordan as a merely provisional measure. It [was] decided not to allow Zionism in Transjordan for the present but also not to bar the door against it for all time." As it often happens, the temporary arrangement "hardened into an enduring political reality and the Arabian prince became a permanent factor of the Palestine Mandatory regime."

Therefore, 76% of the country was given "to an Arab dynasty that was not Palestinian. The newly created province of Transjordan, later to become the independent state of Jordan, gradually drifted into existence as an entity separate from the rest of Palestine; indeed, today it is often forgotten that Jordan was ever part of Palestine."

From the moment of its creation, Transjordan was closed to all Jewish migration and settlement, a clear betrayal of the British promise in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and a patent contravention of its Mandatory obligations. Britain continued in its role as Mandatory over the whole of the area of the Mandate from 1922, but Jewish hopes of reconstituting the Jewish National Home were thereafter to be limited within the 23% of Palestine west of the Jordan River, an area that includes what is today called the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The League of Nations was dissolved after the conclusion of World War II with the terms of the Mandate still uncompleted, and a new body, the United Nations,was founded on June 26, 1945. Article 80 was specifically placed in the UN Charter to cover Mandates for places like Palestine where the purposes of those Mandates still remained uncompleted at the time of the demise of the League of Nations. Article 80 made it clear that the rights created by the Mandate and the terms of the Mandate were not to be affected.

Palestine continued to be administered by Great Britain under the Mandate until 1946 when Transjordan was granted independence. In one fell swoop, sovereignty in 77% of Palestine had been awarded to the Arabs. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations recommended that both a Jewish State and an Arab State be created in the remainder of the Mandated territory west of the Jordan River, and that Jerusalem be internationalised. Even though this was dramatically favorable to the Arabs and punative to the Zionist Jews, the Jews accepted the proposal. The Arabs rejected it.
 
What I do not think most people understand is how this world works. You see plenty of Muslims armies have conquered and it has become Muslim. The fact that Muslims are still crying over Israel is beyond me. It was Jewish, then Christian, then Muslim, the Christian, then Turkish, then British, then Jewish, I mean everyone has owned it at some point!

Get over it!


Let's just give it back to the Canaanites and Philistines (that's according to the Bible) or to whoever the Qu'ran says lived there before Ibrahim moved there with his family. None of those people around today? Then declare it a no-man's land and everybody moves out. Don't like those options, then fight it out and the biggest bully wins -- that's pretty much what is happening today. But whoever gets it, had better keep looking over the shoulder, because there will always be someone else ready to make or take their own claim.

There is one other option, one it seems no one is willing to consider, learn to live in peace with one another. That means nobody gets their own way, everybody has to give a little and everybody gets to get a little. But such mature ways of thinking appear to be beyond the scope of those who are involved in this dispute. Even when the idea is broached it begins with people saying "Fine, but my side has already done that; they're the ones who need to give up on such and such, because we've given all we are willing to give."

Makes me think of the line from Shakespeare: "A pox on all their houses."
 
Last edited:

Similar Threads

Back
Top