A solution to Israel?

[noodles]

So, if I understand correctly, does this mean that Israel doesn't want to establish a Jewish state OR have a sharia in the country. There must be something that can be done to end the bloodshed. Surely a compromise is in order if you want to establish peaceful country.

In any case, "Greed" seems to be an important factor that we have to take into account. Though I shouldn't be the one talking as I'm not in that situation myself.

 

[wilberhum]

So, if I understand correctly, does this mean that Israel doesn't want to establish a Jewish state OR have a sharia in the country. There must be something that can be done to end the bloodshed. Surely a compromise is in order if you want to establish peaceful country.

In any case, "Greed" seems to be an important factor that we have to take into account. Though I shouldn't be the one talking as I'm not in that situation myself.

Noodles you are so right.

Surely a compromise is in order if you want to establish peaceful country.

The problem is that both see a compromise as a loss and too many would rather kill or be killed than loose.

 

[Skywalker]

Not one single non-Muslim wanted to live in any kind of theocracy. Only 1 Muslim said they would want to live in a non-Islamic theocracy.

Are you saying that no Muslim wanted to live under Sharia law, whereas one of them wanted to live under non-Muslim religious law?! Either your poll was inaccurate, or the people you questioned weren't Muslims :?

The fact that I have never seen a proper example of it is not the reason, it is the evidence. Evidence that it can't be done. Even if you find an example, I would rather live under Communism.

This "evidence" isn't very convincing for me because proper Sharia countries were established in the past and flourished but people don't want to accept that as evidence because, like I said before, they think that that was then and this is now. Today you will only find corrupted remnants of that what was once great, and people for some reason think that this is the way it always was. It wasn't. It was a lot better.

And yes, communism does have certain advantages that do make it appealing...from a certain point of view.

yes, i would like the settlements to be disbanded and israel to pull back to the '67 borders too if israel could be sure that it wasn't committing suicide by doing that.

By suicide you mean Jews becoming the minority?

the u.s. could (but won't anytime soon) play a very important role in this process because of all the $ it gives to israel.

Some would argue that the US is the reason why things are so bad down here. They have the power to influence Israel to do pretty much anything, yet they don't. What do they gain from Israel's presence in the Middle East?

zionism is a political movement that uses religion. so yes, it is a "nationalistic" thing - the jews, like the muslims, consider themselves to be a people ("am" - which is the hebrew equivalent of ummah).

I think religion has been used by many in a very nationalistic way, which I see as wrong. Loyalty to the ummah means abiding by Islamic laws during times of peace and war, not just war, but a lot of people use their Islamic identity to create war from peace. This is wrong. And I think a similar situation is happening with Israeli Jews.

mainly because of poverty and lack of work in their own countries. from what i hear, they are not treated very well, including the south asian muslims that live and work there.

Yes that is true. However, it's not just asians living in poverty that are going there for work, but also others, for example people in the petroleum industry. I think when a country has a particular resource or just any reason to make it attractive to an individual, many are willing to overlook the judicial system governing that country.

i'm a shack-in-the-desert type of person.

Dude, you have a computer! You're a traitor to all the shack-in-the-desert type of people
I had a friend who didn't have a TV or PC or anything; he was Amish. In this day in age, with all the "educational" stuff we're getting on TV, I can see how not having one can be an advantage.

In any case, "Greed" seems to be an important factor that we have to take into account.

I think "nationalistic greed" would be more accurate.

 

[snakelegs]

By suicide you mean Jews becoming the minority?

no, i meant literally - that before israel would agree to move all the way back to the pre-'67 border, it would have to have some guarantee that it would not be attacked again. it will not sacrifice its security - but obviously it does not have security now either.
but yes, jews becoming a minority would be the end of the jewish state and that would not be acceptable either.

Some would argue that the US is the reason why things are so bad down here. They have the power to influence Israel to do pretty much anything, yet they don't. What do they gain from Israel's presence in the Middle East?

the u.s. could certainly play an important role. what the gain is - a possible military ally - base/air space/refueling - in the region?

I think religion has been used by many in a very nationalistic way, which I see as wrong. Loyalty to the ummah means abiding by Islamic laws during times of peace and war, not just war, but a lot of people use their Islamic identity to create war from peace. This is wrong. And I think a similar situation is happening with Israeli Jews.

you have a point. personally, i see judaism and islam as religion - not a "people". both religions encompass a diverse group of people, races, cultures etc.

Yes that is true. However, it's not just asians living in poverty that are going there for work, but also others, for example people in the petroleum industry. I think when a country has a particular resource or just any reason to make it attractive to an individual, many are willing to overlook the judicial system governing that country.

can't really comment on this one because i don't know anything about that group. the people i know about are largely south asians who come to the gulf because of poverty and lack of employment in their own countries. they are often treated like scum by the arabs.

Dude, you have a computer! You're a traitor to all the shack-in-the-desert type of people
I had a friend who didn't have a TV or PC or anything; he was Amish. In this day in age, with all the "educational" stuff we're getting on TV, I can see how not having one can be an advantage.

it was just my way of saying that the attractions you mentioned don't attract me, let alone attract me enough to be willing to live under shariah! i would be happy with a shack in the desert - this doesn't mean poverty/starvation. i love the desert. i have nothing against technology and think the internet is one of the most wonderful inventions in my lifetime. i just plain don't like tv and never did.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

What I do not think most people understand is how this world works. You see plenty of Muslims armies have conquered and it has become Muslim. The fact that Muslims are still crying over Israel is beyond me. It was Jewish, then Christian, then Muslim, the Christian, then Turkish, then British, then Jewish, I mean everyone has owned it at some point!

Get over it!

Your never going to establish Sharia law there, because 70% of Israel is secular and many very anti-religious. Every male and female (unless very religious or gets out of it) goes to train in the army for more then a year and the secular really take it seriously. So many of them have guns, to take over Israel you will either have to invade it and fight every single last Israeli with a mchine gun to death while watching your nation get destroyed by Nuclear bombs, or bomb it and in the process watch the entire Middle East get Nuked by Israel knowing it is going to be destroyed by some Nuke and then Arab life with cease to exist.

How about instead making peace and Israel pulls back to '67, you all share Jerusalem and the palestinians forget this myth of "right of return" when about a huge majority left when Israel urged them to stay, and the other half were lviing in Jordan anyway!

I'm sorry Muslims but get over yourselves, you conquered so much land during certain periods of history that I cannot do anything but laugh when I see these crazy Sheikhs crying about how they actually got conquered, and they need to end "occupation".

If so, go take over southern spain again to.

 

[wilberhum]

Originally Posted by wilberhum
Not one single non-Muslim wanted to live in any kind of theocracy. Only 1 Muslim said they would want
to live in a non-Islamic theocracy.

Originally Posted by Skywalker
Are you saying that no Muslim wanted to live under Sharia law, whereas one of them wanted to live under non-Muslim religious law?! Either your poll was inaccurate, or the people you questioned weren't Muslims

You obviously failed the “Reading Between the Lines” course. I didn’t say what I didn’t say because it is obvious to all. Well almost all. Most Muslims selected to live under a theocracy based on there religion. The poll was as valid as you can get on a forum like this. It is obvious that the inaccuracy exist only in your understanding.

Originally Posted by wilberhum
The fact that I have never seen a proper example of it is not the reason, it is the evidence. Evidence that
it can't be done. Even if you find an example, I would rather live under Communism.

Originally Posted by Skywalker
This "evidence" isn't very convincing for me because proper Sharia countries were established in the past and flourished but people don't want to accept that as evidence because, like I said before, they think that that was then and this is now. Today you will only find corrupted remnants of that what was once great, and people for some reason think that this is the way it always was. It wasn't. It was a lot better.
And yes, communism does have certain advantages that do make it appealing...from a certain point of view.

I fully realize that my "evidence" isn't very convincing for you. You are among those that look back at the time of war and expansion was a perfect time. Few governmental systems last for a thousand years but that is another issue, but on this one, Muslims of our time can’t even get Sharia law to work in a country that is 100% Muslim. How can you figure that you can get it to work where Muslims are a minority?

I don’t find any thing appealing about communism. It is just that I would rather live for the state than live for someone else’s version of god.

 

[Skywalker]

it will not sacrifice its security - but obviously it does not have security now either.

That's precisely the point; currently it doesn't have security, nor a guarantee for continuing security, while at the same time neither do the Palestinians. If they pull back and agree to international demands, they could at least have that guarantee from the Arab League, and probably the rest of the international community.

the u.s. could certainly play an important role. what the gain is - a possible military ally - base/air space/refueling - in the region?

I doubt the US would go to all this effort and spend this much money on a refuelling post...something else is afoot.

i would be happy with a shack in the desert - this doesn't mean poverty/starvation. i love the desert. i have nothing against technology and think the internet is one of the most wonderful inventions in my lifetime. i just plain don't like tv and never did.

I got a thing for the desert too, although I see it a lot where I live. A lot of people don't appreciate it's beauty and want to see it "turned greed", but I'm not one of them.

You obviously failed the “Reading Between the Lines” course. I didn’t say what I didn’t say because it is obvious to all. Well almost all. Most Muslims selected to live under a theocracy based on there religion. The poll was as valid as you can get on a forum like this. It is obvious that the inaccuracy exist only in your understanding.

...or in your explanation. Either way, I get it and yes, this makes more sense.

I fully realize that my "evidence" isn't very convincing for you. You are among those that look back at the time of war and expansion was a perfect time. Few governmental systems last for a thousand years but that is another issue, but on this one, Muslims of our time can’t even get Sharia law to work in a country that is 100% Muslim. How can you figure that you can get it to work where Muslims are a minority?

When there's a will, there's a way. Everybody wants to see this problem solved. Most likely, any measure taken to solve it would be transparent to the international community. With transparency, you minimize potential corruption, and without corruption, with motivation, and under proper supervision, you can easity establish a Sharia state.

 

[wilberhum]

under proper supervision, you can easity establish a Sharia state.

It's so easy a cave man can do it!
It is sooooooooooooo easy, that's why no one does it.

Most people in this would would take up arms against a theocracy. I would.
You will do much better if you try to create Utopia.

 

[wilberhum]

Skywalker,
It seams that no one wants a religious state except Muslims.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F915F658-0C20-4030-A4D4-266EFA32A146.htm

Thai debate rages over religion
A proposal to make Buddhism Thailand's official religion in a new national constitution has a sparked fierce debate in the country.
………………………….
"Once we nationalise the status of Buddhism it becomes aggressive," he says.

"Every time when Buddhism is married with nationalism, the offspring is always a demon."

[PIE]the offspring is always a demon.[/PIE]
This is not a problem with Buddhism and government,
it is a problem with religion and government.

 

[SATalha]

It's so easy a cave man can do it!
It is sooooooooooooo easy, that's why no one does it.

Most people in this would would take up arms against a theocracy. I would.
You will do much better if you try to create Utopia.

Utopia...nah. Shariah.....yeah

 

[rebelishaulman]

Utopia...nah. Shariah.....yeah

Utopia is an imaginary island, depicted as a perfect social, legal, and political system. I would have expected you to say they are the same, but obviously you chose the correct answer that they are far different.

 

[SATalha]

Utopia is an imaginary island, depicted as a perfect social, legal, and political system. I would have expected you to say they are the same, but obviously you chose the correct answer that they are far different.

whatever Utopia is in my opinion the law of Allah is far from perfect for humanity. imagine Allah's very own words alongside with the greatest phrophets utterances. The only combination needed for success....as Muslims showed in previous years!

Are you suggesting that Shariah is the opposite to utopia?

 

[wilberhum]

whatever Utopia is in my opinion the law of Allah is far from perfect for humanity. imagine Allah's very own words alongside with the greatest phrophets utterances. The only combination needed for success....as Muslims showed in previous years!

Are you suggesting that Shariah is the opposite to utopia?

Ya all keep forgetting that men enforce your "So Called" law of Allah, arn't perfect. :skeleton:
As far as "in previous years", we need to remember history is written by the victors. :-[

 

[rebelishaulman]

whatever Utopia is in my opinion the law of Allah is far from perfect for humanity. imagine Allah's very own words alongside with the greatest phrophets utterances. The only combination needed for success....as Muslims showed in previous years!

Are you suggesting that Shariah is the opposite to utopia?

I'm suggesting that the perfect situation and laws for humanity and Shariah are seperate. I thought you may say that utopia which is a perfect law and society was the same as Sharia which of course I disagree with.

 

[Skywalker]

I believe I said:

without corruption, with motivation, and under proper supervision, you can easily establish a Sharia state.

You only took the last part and tried to prove a point. The reason why they can't make one now is because there's too much corruption. You could say my list in a kind of priority order. But under proper supervision that would be created if the process is transparent, you would eliminate the barriers that have existed for centuries in creating a proper Sharia state. It's almost impossible to imagine that if they were to go ahead with that kind of venture that the eyes of the whole world will not be watching.

"Every time when Buddhism is married with nationalism, the offspring is always a demon."

Actually "every time anything is married with nationalism, or even when nationalism exists alone, the offspring is always a demon" would be a lot more accurate. "Nationalism is the scourge of modern civilization" as Albert Einstein puts it, and it's easy to see why.

 

[Skywalker]

I thought you may say that utopia which is a perfect law and society was the same as Sharia which of course I disagree with.

Do you also disagree that a country under Torah law is utopia?

 

[rebelishaulman]

Do you also disagree that a country under Torah law is utopia?

It is Utopia for a Jew who loves G-d. It may not be for a Jew who does not love G-d. Of course, gentiles are not aloud to follow the Torah unless they convert, because the laws are only for the people of Israel because that is who the covenant was to.

The next time Torah law is instated in Israel the Moshiach will come and world peace will be here etc. So it will be a utopia.

 

[Skywalker]

In that case, as far as I know, Torah law is quite similar to Sharia law, except of course that it allows others to live under it while practicing their own religions, therefore I'd say that you either don't see that the two are very similar or you don't think that a country ruled by Torah law could be a utopia.

 

[rebelishaulman]

In that case, as far as I know, Torah law is quite similar to Sharia law, except of course that it allows others to live under it while practicing their own religions, therefore I'd say that you either don't see that the two are very similar or you don't think that a country ruled by Torah law could be a utopia.

I don't see Sharia law and Torah law as being similar. At least from the idea I get about Sharia law. However, I really do not see Judaism and Islam being similar. I think Islam is closer to Sikhism, and I think that Judaism should not be compared to any other religions, because all the other religions are much different from Judaism.

From the closest examples I see of Shariah law today, I see not much of a resemblence. The death penalty used in Sharia law is an example. Since Mohammad did not have the Oral Torah, only the written to view, he only sees half of what the Torah says about capital punishment is. The part about the punishments and witnesses more specifically.

Judaism teaches that to carry out any capital punishment the person must be:

• Caught in the act by two witnesses.
• Warned while in the process of commiting the crime that it is a death penalty crime.
• Then the person must acknowledge they heard the witnesses warning.
• Then if they continue after the warning they will be put to death.

Yes, prison or exile was more common. The Death penalty is not very Jewish unless your 100% the crime happend and the person knew it was against Torah and would get killed and still did it.

I have seen enough of Shariah law to know that Mohammad obviously did not know about our Oral Torah which is the backbone of Jewish Law witht he written Torah when he tried to make his and the bibles capital punishment similar.

A society which:

• Whips women for being raped sometimes
• Punisheshed women for being out of the house without a male family escort.
• Carries out capital punishment so frequently.

Is not one like Torah law.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

I don't see Sharia law and Torah law as being similar. At least from the idea I get about Sharia law. However, I really do not see Judaism and Islam being similar. I think Islam is closer to Sikhism, and I think that Judaism should not be compared to any other religions, because all the other religions are much different from Judaism.

From the closest examples I see of Shariah law today, I see not much of a resemblence. The death penalty used in Sharia law is an example. Since Mohammad did not have the Oral Torah, only the written to view, he only sees half of what the Torah says about capital punishment is. The part about the punishments and witnesses more specifically.

Judaism teaches that to carry out any capital punishment the person must be:

• Caught in the act by two witnesses.
• Warned while in the process of commiting the crime that it is a death penalty crime.
• Then the person must acknowledge they heard the witnesses warning.
• Then if they continue after the warning they will be put to death.

Yes, prison or exile was more common. The Death penalty is not very Jewish unless your 100% the crime happend and the person knew it was against Torah and would get killed and still did it.

I have seen enough of Shariah law to know that Mohammad obviously did not know about our Oral Torah which is the backbone of Jewish Law witht he written Torah when he tried to make his and the bibles capital punishment similar.

A society which:

• Whips women for being raped sometimes
• Punisheshed women for being out of the house without a male family escort.
• Carries out capital punishment so frequently.

Is not one like Torah law.

In which society were women punished for being outside with a male escort? Whipped for being raped? Carrying capital punishment? Name me one Sharia Legitament that has done it. According to the Majority of Scholars, the Taliban was the only true Established Islamic State based on Sharia After the fall of the Ottoman.