Alleged Affirmations of Scientifically Accurate Verses

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I see. So you want me to go out, find a 1,000 people (out of six billion or so), gather them together and put them all on a TV show for the sole purpose of persuading you to leave Islam? Exactly what have you been smoking? :D



Fascinating. Now show me where it mentions male and female gametes and what that has to do with 'modern science'. That is supposed to be 'proof' of divine origin?!

If you cannot find 1000 such persons ,I can show you 5000 Huffaz ,and you embrace Islam ,Right ??? Do you accept my offer?2:Quran has mentioned that Jesus christ was born without father.
 
Greetings,
If you cannot find 1000 such persons ,I can show you 5000 Huffaz ,and you embrace Islam ,Right ??? Do you accept my offer?

Why would meeting 5000 people who've memorised the Qur'an convince someone that they should convert to Islam? Doesn't it actually just show how limited some educational approaches are?

2:Quran has mentioned that Jesus christ was born without father.

If you mean biological father, so does the Bible. Nowhere does either book say anything about male and female gametes. Unless you can provide a quote to show that it does, of course.

Peace
 
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selam aleykum asadxyz
Please take a moment a reflect your previous posts. Although I'm debating at the same side, it is obvious that your argument is flawed. Insulting your oponents and writing in huge color font only makes you look bad but doesn't help us forward in the debate. Please be more constructive.
And Allah (subhana wa ta'ala's) knows best
 
Greetings,


Why would meeting 5000 people who've memorised the Qur'an convince someone that they should convert to Islam? Doesn't it actually just show how limited some educational approaches are?



If you mean biological father, so does the Bible. Nowhere does either book say anything about male and female gametes. Unless you can provide a quote to show that it does, of course.

Peace
It is the miraculous nature of the Quran that it can be memorized with such an accuracy and by so extreme number of people.No other book has credit.
Anyway :
So you have run away from both challenges
 
Steve, i'll write a reply when i get home, just had 5 minutes so i thought i'd blast off a quick one to asadxyz.
If you cannot find 1000 such persons ,I can show you 5000 Huffaz ,and you embrace Islam ,Right ???
People in other cultures don't generally memorise whole books for the sake of doing it.

It's a bit like saying 'find me 1000 amazing didgeridoo players outside of australia'. It's not that the didgeridoo or australian aborigines are miraculous, just that people outside that area don't do it.

Anyway, as Trumble said Shakespeare is a good example in the English speaking world, stage actors routinely memorise whole plays and you could probably find 1000 people who can recite Hamlet alone.
 
^^Yea but I dont think he means something like that. Thats not religious, but then again who knows....people are weird you know lol.
 
That's only one part of the assignment, now show that they indeed had this knowledge in syria.
Azy said:
2) Check out Nemesius (4th Century) and Sergius (6th Century), both of Syria who were familiar with Galen's ideas centuries before the Prophet travelled there.
Could you clarify your point?
The extent of the detail in the Quran regarding embryos is mingled fluid (incorrect), clot (observable after miscarriage and previously observed), lump (observable and previously observed).

There are hadiths which speak of angels asking god to decide the sex and characteristics of the child at 42 days after conception, but they don't get much of a mention.

I've put three most accepted English translations to remove doubt:
YUSUFALI: Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
PICKTHAL: Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covereth him a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness. When he holdeth out his hand he scarce can see it. And he for whom Allah hath not appointed light, for him there is no light.
SHAKIR: Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.

Also I don't know if you know this, but the only place where waves "crash over" each other is at a few meters from the cost. At full sea waves don't crash in to each other but instead follow up. Also you're adding interpretation, you're saying that the reference to darkness, is the stormy weather, whereas the verse says quite clearly that the different waves them self cause darkness rather then "symbolically refer to it". It's kind of silly really, to infer that muslims interpret the verse in the wrong way because they want the miracle to be true. If you look at it, your the only one who's making interpretations. The muslim explanation of the verse is a literal and not an interpretative explanation.
Erm, in what sort of weather do you normally have billowing waves and dark clouds?
See the thing is, each wave has it's own density, salinity, and temperature. So these different waves act like different mediums, between the waves is a surface, and light reflects partially at each wave it passes. In other words, each wave refracts light, and by the process a small part of light is reflected untill eventually you'll have complete darkness. That is the reason the bottom of the sea is dark sea, as the verse suggested.
"What isn't reflected enters the water and is absorbed by water molecules. About 65 percent of the visible light is absorbed within 1 meter (~3.3 feet) of the sea surface in shelf and open-ocean water... ...This property of water - the selective absorption of certain wavelengths of light - combined with the scattering of the visible light accounts for the blue colour of the open ocean. In very clear water, not even 1 percent of the light that enters the ocean reaches a water depth of 100 meters (~330 feet)" Pinet, P.R. 2003 Invitation to Oceanography

The effect on the darkness of the ocean of light absorption by water moecules and solid particles is vastly more significant than anything to do with partial reflection by varying densities of subsurface water. God must have known it was due to absorption so why tell everyone otherwise and leave out the absorption bit altogether?
Close, but not quite the same. This verse refers to methodology. the heavens were stretched out. Doesn't necessarily mean they are constantly expanded. There's definitely no emphasis on that. The Qur'an states quite clear "constantly" expanding them.
Link to an explanation (it's pretty thorough but a bit dry)
I would've pasted small chunks but I just ended up putting more and more to explain other parts so you might have to trudge through it (it wasn't fun).
Quick summary:
There would be more correct ways to write "we are expanding them".
The term used is used elsewhere with a different meaning.
The Hebrew grammar used in Isaiah is basically identical to that used in the Quran so it is valid to interpret it the same way.

I've put three most accepted English translations to remove doubt:
051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Scientists haven't missed this at all, but apearently you have missed science class :)
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g112/mtn_roots.html
Do me a little favour, it's late and that's a lot to read, could you whittle it down a bit and tell me what relates to which verse, would be appreciated :)
Yes I know that, and once a mountain is created it prevents further earthquakes. You're mixing up method of creation with function.
Firstly, mountains do not prevent earthquakes. Remember the 7.6 earthquake in Pakistan in 2005 in the Himalayas? Mountainous areas are plagued with earthquakes because the tectonic plates don't just stop moving when mountains form.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/
Look at all the areas with mountains around the Pacific Rim and the Himalayas.

Secondly, the Arabic word for earthquake is used in the Quran, but not in that verse.
You're hung up on the word set. I think it's unfair. What other verb should God have used to describe the process of formation in an old language.
You emphasised yourself the 'constantly expanding universe' in the text, so what's the problem here? Why not creating or forming?

What's unfair is when a Quranic 'scholar' strains and translates and interprets the life out of a word in order to make it almost fit a scientific principle and then claim it's predictive qualities as proof of divinity.
(I woke up this morning and realised people might take that the wrong way, it's not directed at anyone here, more the folk who initiate this stuff)
 
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Hi Azy,
2) Check out Nemesius (4th Century) and Sergius (6th Century), both of Syria who were familiar with Galen's ideas centuries before the Prophet travelled there.
But does Galen include the stages of the first few days/week. To small to notice with the naked eye?
The extent of the detail in the Quran regarding embryos is mingled fluid (incorrect),
Could you clarify further?
clot (observable after miscarriage and previously observed), lump (observable and previously observed).
It could have been observed yes, but somehow I doubt the detailed structured could have been noticed with the naked eye.

There are hadiths which speak of angels asking god to decide the sex and characteristics of the child at 42 days after conception, but they don't get much of a mention.
Predestination tells us that the sex is already decided even before the mother is impregnated. I don't know what the meaning of this hadeeth is, but I can only assume that the angels are asking for confirmation. Also remember that hadeeths have a different degree of accuracy and reliability. You have to consider whether it is a strong or weak hadeeth. And even the strong hadeeth are not equal in strength as ayaath from the Qur'an.

Erm, in what sort of weather do you normally have billowing waves and dark clouds?
All the same, I think the verse illustrates clearly that the succession of waves is vertically speaking.

"What isn't reflected enters the water and is absorbed by water molecules. About 65 percent of the visible light is absorbed within 1 meter (~3.3 feet) of the sea surface in shelf and open-ocean water... ...This property of water - the selective absorption of certain wavelengths of light - combined with the scattering of the visible light accounts for the blue colour of the open ocean. In very clear water, not even 1 percent of the light that enters the ocean reaches a water depth of 100 meters (~330 feet)" Pinet, P.R. 2003 Invitation to Oceanography

The effect on the darkness of the ocean of light absorption by water moecules and solid particles is vastly more significant than anything to do with partial reflection by varying densities of subsurface water. God must have known it was due to absorption so why tell everyone otherwise and leave out the absorption bit altogether?
I stand corrected, 'll have to think this trough a while before I can answer your counterquestion...

Quick summary:
There would be more correct ways to write "we are expanding them".
The term used is used elsewhere with a different meaning.
The Hebrew grammar used in Isaiah is basically identical to that used in the Quran so it is valid to interpret it the same way.
I've looked up the tafsir on www.tafsir.com (the text was writen a long time ago before the scientific discoveries) and indeed there was a different interpretation of the meaning back then. Again I stand corrected.

Do me a little favour, it's late and that's a lot to read, could you whittle it down a bit and tell me what relates to which verse, would be appreciated :)
Sure no problem. Basically it describes how several mountains, next to tectonic plates pushing are also formed by magma being pushed up (a bit like volcanoes). The magma stoled ages ago, and the end result is one big massive "peg". Just like icebergs, what lies above surface is only a small top, and the roots of the mountains go 10 to some times 100 times deeper. Of course, tectonic movement can still push and pull the mountains higher. But only a few mountains are created by plates being pushed up alone.

Firstly, mountains do not prevent earthquakes. Remember the 7.6 earthquake in Pakistan in 2005 in the Himalayas?
No, they do not prevent it indeed, otherwise we'd never have earthquakes, but they do make them less severe. They counter the movement of the plates somewhat.

Mountainous areas are plagued with earthquakes because the tectonic plates don't just stop moving when mountains form. http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/
Look at all the areas with mountains around the Pacific Rim and the Himalayas.
I'd say it's the other way around, areas plagued by earthquakes have mountains. Just because they are at the same area doesn't mean mountains caused them.

Secondly, the Arabic word for earthquake is used in the Quran, but not in that verse.
Yes I know, we're talking about two separate verses here:
Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs? (Qur'an, 78:6-7)
and:
We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

You emphasised yourself the 'constantly expanding universe' in the text, so what's the problem here? Why not creating or forming?
Isn't it obvious that when God says he placed them there, that he created and formed them first then? As you can see from the previous paragraphs I'm not the kind who is to stubborn to admit when he's wrong, but in this case I really feel like you're just splitting hairs.

What's unfair is when a Quranic 'scholar' strains and translates and interprets the life out of a word in order to make it almost fit a scientific principle and then claim it's predictive qualities as proof of divinity.
(I woke up this morning and realised people might take that the wrong way, it's not directed at anyone here, more the folk who initiate this stuff)
You're right, I'm a bit aggravated by it myself. Although I do still believe the Quran is miraculous; trying to make it look more miraculously by adding interpretation isn't the right way to go.
 
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But does Galen include the stages of the
first few days/week. To small to notice with the naked eye?

It could have been observed yes, but somehow I doubt the detailed
structured could have been noticed with the naked eye.
What sort of detail in the text makes you say that microscopic detail is revealed that is otherwise undetectable?

I know the following is not from the Quran but is it considered a strong hadeeth? If so it would make the claim of 'previously unknown scientific accuracy' a little more shaky.

Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you
collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into
a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of
flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an
angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and
whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter).
Then the soul is breathed into him.

All the same, I think the verse illustrates
clearly that the succession of waves is vertically speaking.
I'm interpreting a translation so I would have to say the exact meaning could be as you say :) Unless any arabic speakers have an input?
Sure no problem. Basically it describes how
several mountains, next to tectonic plates pushing are also formed by
magma being pushed up (a bit like volcanoes). The magma stoled ages ago,
and the end result is one big massive "peg". Just like icebergs, what
lies above surface is only a small top, and the roots of the mountains
go 10 to some times 100 times deeper. Of course, tectonic movement can
still push and pull the mountains higher. But only a few mountains are
created by plates being pushed up alone.
As you say, they are a few different types of mountain formation, not all having this peg-like structure.

No, they do not prevent it indeed, otherwise we'd never have earthquakes, but they do make them less severe. They counter the movement of the plates somewhat.

I'd say it's the other way around, areas plagued by earthquakes have
mountains. Just because they are at the same area doesn't mean mountains caused them.
That's not what I meant, they're both just byproducts of the same processes.
Isn't it obvious that when God says he placed
them there, that he created and formed them first then? ... I really
feel like you're just splitting hairs.
I'm not trying to split hairs, I thought that unless you were a young earth creationist you'd
acknowledge that there was a time before the mountains existed and that they came to be over millions of years and continue to form, rather than by direct intervention. I don't know, I suppose it depends how old you believe the earth is.
As you can see from the previous paragraphs
I'm not the kind who is to stubborn to admit when he's wrong
And trust me, I really appreciate it :) I can be very stubborn at times, and it's not a good thing.
(edit: I will get round to writing a reply on the free will thread ;) )
 
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http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134267898-tackling-negative-dawah-important-read.html

Take some time if you can, on my view of the "Naikh" style translation. I do see it as a recruitment ploy - in that their is very little factuality to it.


So what validates the Qur'an to be true? Well their are 2 steps

1) Having belief that life has a purpose and hence some form of power above us. This is a first step I believe one must take before considering religion at all.

2) After having done so, you must study the history of the religion - understand its texts and make conclusions.

Different people will have different conclusions. Some may feel, it has a perfect message, teaches so much good and hence will decide to follow it. Others may not.

It has never really been about science affirmations which lead people to religion - all of these science claims did not exist 1000 years ago, yet religion spread.

It is up to the one researching, to try logically deduce, what the Prophets said and did - why did they do it, motives and so fourth. Add it up all together and make an informed judgement on the whole thing.

It is the reaching of, feeling that God is communicating to you, that you will affirm the faith.

Be objective in your search. Alot of people, state they studied it and found it to be X or Y - but had an agenda to begin with. Alot of atheists (that I encountered) value more sources that are anti-religion rather than pro. When they see something anti-religion, they get really involved and excited over it. However, anything pro-religion, skepticism becomes apparent greatly and a sense of silence. Ask yourself, are you taking it all objectively. I find, many people who claimed to have researched it, state alot of things of the religion which are the propaganda you get from anti-religious source - If they really did research it, you would find that the stuff has been refuted.

So, do really be open-minded on the issue and most importantly - don't take from some and make conclusions and end it their. Some people may be wrong and give false information. Do a proper study, 1 side of the arguement sounds great until you hear the rebuttle. So keep going front and back, don't just stay at 1 side of the table too long or you have broken the rule of objective search.

Just as an example, if anyone read FFI, I read some of these articles (by Muslims, who after research left), stating things like Ghazali is the 2nd best muslim according to muslims, that Islam allows baby marriages according to some fatwah (which is actually a fabricated lie), some lies are still stated their such as that the Prophet practiced a certain sexual act on Aisha when she was 6 (another fabricated fatwa, without checking its validity) - they immediatly (being anti-islam) took it as true rather then check the stuff. It is just an observation I have made, rarely people are willing to check out the anti-religious stuff, but they are fast to report it to the masses. Can we truly say, these people studied Islam objectivly or not, when they do such things?
 
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That's not what I meant, they're both just byproducts of the same processes.
I'm not trying to split hairs, I thought that unless you were a young earth creationist you'd
acknowledge that there was a time before the mountains existed and that they came to be over millions of years and continue to form, rather than by direct intervention. I don't know, I suppose it depends how old you believe the earth is.
And your point is? So if they are million years old that means they are not created by God?
 
...they weren't mountains then, so why would he say they were created and set down...
You're not making any sense. There weren't mountains but they are there now, so between those 2 points in time they were created.
 
Hi Azy
What sort of detail in the text makes you say that microscopic detail is revealed that is otherwise undetectable?
The description of zygotes with the word "alaq".

Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you
collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into
a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of
flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an
angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and
whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter).
Then the soul is breathed into him.[/i]
I'm interpreting a translation so I would have to say the exact meaning could be as you say :) Unless any arabic speakers have an input?
Making angels write it down, does not mean that it is decided at that point. Islam holds that all these details, including many others have already been written down before on the tablets. For what other purposes these things are thus written I do not know; but they obviously aren't written down because they are "decided" at that point.

As you say, they are a few different types of mountain formation, not all having this peg-like structure.
Yes, but mind that these other types are fewer in number, and lower in hight.

That's not what I meant, they're both just byproducts of the same processes.
They are both byproducts indeed, but even if you consider mountains as byproduct, once they are by-produced, they do influence future earthquakes. So although they are formed as byproduct of tectonic movement, they then later on serve as a "peg" that lowers further tectonic movement, or at least "buffers" it.

I'm not trying to split hairs, I thought that unless you were a young earth creationist you'd acknowledge that there was a time before the mountains existed and that they came to be over millions of years and continue to form, rather than by direct intervention. I don't know, I suppose it depends how old you believe the earth is.
I'm not a young earth creationists. I do believe they took multiple years to form, but I fail to see how that is a problem. Direct intervention or slow intervention, I see it as an act of God all the same. And I don't see why it's a problem to describe the creation of the latter -the slow intervention- as "placing" them. If they were indeed formed by God's will, then regardless of trough which method, or over how much time, I'd say that God "placed" them. That's why I judged this as splitting hairs.

edit: I will get round to writing a reply on the free will thread ;)
Looking forward to it =)
 
Making angels write it down, does not mean that it is decided at that point. Islam holds that all these details, including many others have already been written down before on the tablets. For what other purposes these things are thus written I do not know; but they obviously aren't written down because they are "decided" at that point.

'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported: Evil one is he who is evil in the womb of his mother and the good one is he who takes lesson from the (fate of) others. The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companion of Allah's Me ssenger (may peace be upon him) who was called Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari and said: How can a person be an evil one without (cornmittilng an evil) deed? Thereupon the person said to him: You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saving: When forty nights pass after the semen gets into the womb, Allah sends the angel and gives him the shape. Then he creates his sense of hearing, sense of sight, his skin, his flesh, his bones, and then says: My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that also and then says: My Lord, what about his age? And your Lord decides as He likes it and the angel puts it down. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood? And then the Lord decides as He likes and the angel writes it down, and then the angel gets out with his scroll of destiny in his hand and nothing is added to it and nothing is subtracted from it.
Book 33, Number 6393
 
Greetings,

'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported: Evil one is he who is evil in the womb of his mother and the good one is he who takes lesson from the (fate of) others. The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companion of Allah's Me ssenger (may peace be upon him) who was called Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari and said: How can a person be an evil one without (cornmittilng an evil) deed? Thereupon the person said to him: You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saving: When forty nights pass after the semen gets into the womb, Allah sends the angel and gives him the shape. Then he creates his sense of hearing, sense of sight, his skin, his flesh, his bones, and then says: My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that also and then says: My Lord, what about his age? And your Lord decides as He likes it and the angel puts it down. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood? And then the Lord decides as He likes and the angel writes it down, and then the angel gets out with his scroll of destiny in his hand and nothing is added to it and nothing is subtracted from it.
Book 33, Number 6393

Certain things are decided by Allah. What you pointed out is one such thing. That by no means suggests that the same applies for everything else.

Here is a useful link which explains it in a much better way: http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml

Regards
 
What sort of detail in the text makes you say that microscopic detail is revealed that is otherwise undetectable?

The extent of the detail in the Quran regarding embryos is mingled fluid (incorrect), clot (observable after miscarriage and previously observed), lump (observable and previously observed).


Are you talking about the Quran stages or Galen's?
I guess the second

the Quranic description is far accurate and superior to such childish,easy-to-guess Galen's description.....

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/56421-embryology-bones-flesh-4.html




Firstly, mountains do not prevent earthquakes. Remember the 7.6 earthquake in Pakistan in 2005 in the Himalayas? Mountainous areas are plagued with earthquakes because the tectonic plates don't just stop moving when mountains form.
Secondly, the Arabic word for earthquake is used in the Quran, but not in that verse


yes the Arabic word for earthquake is not used in the Quran in such verse and if it been used there is no miracle.....
the other word been used (tameed) has another hint

from

http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/main.php?id=53

The Qur’an explicitly stated that the stabilization of the Earth by means of its mountains was a specific stage in the long process of creation of our planet and still is a very important phenomenon in making that planet suitable for living. Now, the following question arises: how can modern Earth Scientists visualize mountains as means of fixation for the Earth? As mentioned above, the rocky outer cover of the Earth (the lithosphere, which is 65-70 km thick under oceans and 100-150 km thick under continents) is broken up by deep rift systems into separate plates (major, lesser and minor plates as well as micro plates, plate fragments and plate remains). Each of these rigid, outer, rocky covers of the Earth floats on the semi-molten, plastic outermost zone of the Earth’s Mantle (the asthenosphere) and move freely away from, past or towards adjacent plates. At the diverging boundary of each plate, molten magma rises and solidifies to form strips of new ocean floor, and at the opposite boundary (the converging boundary) the plate dives underneath the adjacent plate ‘(subducts) to be gradually consumed in the underlying uppermost mantle zone (the asthenosphere) at exactly the same rate of sea-floor spreading on the opposite boundary. An ideal rectangular, lithospheric plate would thus have one edge growing at a mid-oceanic rift zone (diverging boundary), the opposite edge being consumed into he asthenosphere of the over*riding plate (converging or subduction boundary) and the other two edges sliding past the edges of adjacent plates along transform faults (transcurrent or transform fault boundaries, sliding or gliding boundaries). In this way, the lithospheric plates are constantly shifting around the Earth, despite their rigidity, and as they are carrying continents with them, such continents are also constantly drifting away or towards each other. As a plate is forced under another plate and gets gradually consumed by melting, magmatic activity is set into action. More viscous magmas are intruded, while lighter and more fluid ones are extruded to form island arcs that eventually grow into continents, are plastered to the margins of nearby continents or are squeezed between two colliding continents. Traces of what is believed to have been former island-arcs are now detected along the margins and in the interiors of many of today’s continents (e.g. the Arabian Shield). The divergence and convergence of lithospheric plates are not confined to ocean basins, but are also active within continents and along their margins. This can be demonstrated, by both the Red Sea and the Gulf of California troughs which are extensions of oceanic rifts and are currently widening at the rate of 3cm/year in the former case and 6 cm/year in the latter. Again the collision of the Indian Plate with the Eurasian Plate (which is a valid example of continent/continent collision) has resulted in the formation of the Himalayan Chain, with the highest peaks currently found on the surface of the Earth. Earthquakes are common at all plates’ boundaries, but are most abundant and most destructive along the collisional ones. Throughout the length of the divergent plate boundary, earthquakes are shallow seated, but along the subduction zones, these come from shallow, intermediate and deep foci (down to a depth of 700 kin), accompanying the downward movement of the subducting plate below the over-riding one. Seismic events also take place at the plane’s transcurrent fault boundaries where ii slides past the adjacent plates along transform faults. Plate movements along fault planes do not occur continuously, but in interrupted, sudden jerks, which release accumulated strain. Moreover, it has to be mentioned that lithospheric plates do not all travel at the same speed, but this varies from one case to another. Where the plates are rapidly diverging, the extruding lava in the plane of divergence spreads out over a wide expanse of the ocean bottom and heaps up to form a broad mid-oceanic ridge, with gradually sloping sides (e.g. the East Pacific Rise). Contrary to this, slow divergence of plates gives time for the erupting lava flows to accumulate in much higher heaps, with steep crests (e.g. the Mid-Atlantic Ridge). The rates of plate movements away from their respective spreading centers can be easily calculated by measuring the distances of each pair of magnetic anomaly strips on both sides of the plane of spreading. Such strips can be easily identified and dated, the distance of each from its spreading center can be measured, and hence the average spreading rate can be calculated .Spreading rates at mid-oceanic ridges are usually given as half-rates, while plate velocities at trenches are full rates. This is simply because the rate at which one lithospheric plate moves away from its spreading center represents half the movement at that center as the full spreading rate is the velocity differential between the two diverging plates which were separated at the spreading center (the mid-oceanic ridge). In studying the pattern of motion of plates and plate boundaries, nothing is fixed, as all velocities are relative. Spreading rates vary from about 1 cm/year in the Arctic Ocean, to about 18cm/year in the Pacific Ocean, with the average being 4-5 cm/year. Apparently, the Pacific Ocean is now spreading almost ten times faster than the Atlantic (c.f. Dott and Batten, 1988). Rates of convergence between plates at oceanic trenches and mountain belts can be computed by vector addition of known plate rotations (Cf. Le Pichon, 1968). These can be as high as 9 cm/year at oceanic trenches and 6 cm/year along mountain belts (Le Pichon, op. c.i.t) Rates of slip along the transform fault boundaries of the lithospheric plate can also be calculated, once the rates of plate rotation are known. The patterns of magnetic anomaly strips and sediment thickness suggest that spreading patterns and velocities have been different in the past, and that activity along mid-oceanic ridges varies in both time and space. Consequently such ridges appear, migrate and disappear. Spreading from the Mid-Atlantic rift zone began between 200 and 150 MYBP, from the northwestern Indian Ocean rift zone between 100 and 80 MYBP, while both Australia and Antarctica did not separate until 65 MYBP (cf. Dott and Batten, bc. cit.). Volcanoes also abound at divergent boundaries, whether under the sea or on land. Most of these volcanoes have been active for a period of 20-30 million years or even more (e.g. the Canary Islands). During such long periods of activity, older volcanoes were gradually carried away from the spreading zone and its constantly renewed plate edge, until they became out of reach of the magma body that used to feed them and hence gradually faded out and died. The floor of the present-day Pacific Ocean is spudded with a large number of submerged, non-eruptive volcanic cones (guyots) that are believed to have come into being by a similar process. Continental orogenic belts are the result of plate boundary interaction, which reaches its climax when two continents come into collision, after consuming the ocean floor that used to separate them. Such continent/continent collision results in the scraping off of all sediments and sedimentary rocks, as well as volcanic rocks that have accumulated on the ocean floor and in the oceanic trenches and squeezing them between the two colliding continents. This results in considerable crumpling of the margins of the two continents, followed by the cessation of plate movement at the junction. The two continental plates become welded together, with considerable crystal shortening (in the form of giant thrusts and infrastructural nappes) and considerable crystal thickening (in the form of the decoupling of the two lithospheric plates as well as their penetration by the deep downward extensions of the mountainous chains then formed). Such downward extensions of the mountains are commonly known as mountain roots” and are several times their protrusion above the ground surface. Such deep roots stabilize the continental masses (or plates), as plate motions are almost completely halted by their formation, especially when the mountain mass is entrapped within a continent as an old craton. Again, the notion of a plastic layer (asthenosphere) directly below the outer rocky cover of the Earth (lithosphere) makes it possible to understand why the continents are elevated above the oceanic basins, why the crust beneath them is much thicker (30-40 kin) than it is beneath the oceans (5-8 kin) and why the thickness of the continental plates (100-150 kin) is much greater than that of the oceanic plates (65-70 kin). This is simply because of the fact that the less dense lithosphere (about 2.7 to 2.9 gm/cm3) is believed to float on top of the denser, and more easily deformed, plastic asthenosphere (> 3.5 gm 1cm3), in exactly the same way an inceberg floats in the oceanic waters. Inasmuch as mountains have very deep roots, all other elevated regions such as plateaus and continents must have corresponding (although much shallower) roots, extending downward into the asthenosphere. In other words, the entire lithosphere is floating above the plastic or semiplastic asthenosphere, and its elevated structures are held steadily by their downwardly plunging roots .Lithospheric plates move about along the surface of the Earth in response to the way in which heat flows arrive at the base of the lithosphere, aided by the rotation of the Earth around its own axis. There is enough geologic evidence to support the fact that both processes have been much more active in the distant geologic past, slowing gradually with time. Consequently, it is believed that plate movements have operated much more rapidly in the early stages of the creation of the Earth and have been steadily slowing down with the steady building-up of mountains and the accretion of continents. This slowing down of plate movements may also have been aided by a steady slowing down in the Earth’s rotation around its own axis (due to the operating influence of tides which is attributed to the gravitational pull of both the sun and the moon) and also by a steady decrease in the amount of heat arriving from the interior of the Earth to its surface as a result of the continued consumption of the source of such heat flows which is believed to be the decay of radioactive materials. The above mentioned discussion clearly indicates that one of the basic functions of mountains is its role in stabilizing continental masses lest these would shake and jerk, making life virtually impossible on the surface of such continents) The precedence of the Glorious Qur’an with more than 14 centuries in describing this phenomenon is a clear testimony for the fact that this Noble Book is the word of the Creator in its divine purity and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His final Messenger. In an authentic saying, this noble profit is quoted to have said that: “When Allah created the Earth it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it by the mountains”. This unlettered Prophet lived at a time between 570 and 632 A.C.) When no other man was aware of such facts, which only started to unfold by the beginning of the twentieth century, and was not finally formulated until towards its very end. The above mentioned four examples of Qur’anic verses include the basic foundations of the most recently established concept in Earth Sciences, namely “the concept of Plate Tectonics”. This concept was only formulated in the late sixties and the early seventies of this century (cf. McKenzie 1967; Maxwell and others, 1970; etc.), i.e. about 1335 years after the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the concept is based on the following observed facts:

a) That the outer rocky layer of the Earth is deeply faulted, and this is explicitly mentioned in the Qur’anic verse "And the earth which splits (with the growth of trees and plants)." (Surat At-Tariq (The Night-Comer): 12).

b) That hot lava flows pour out from such deep faults, particularly in the middle parts of certain seas and oceans, and this is clearly implied in the Qur’anic verse "And the sea kept filled (or it will be fire kindled on the Day of Resurrection)." (Surat At-Tur (The Mount):6).

c) That the flow of such lavas can cause the surface of the Earth to shake and jerk, can lead to the movement of these faulted blocks and the formation of trenches in which deep roots of the mountains are formed. This is implied by both the verses "And the earth which splits (with the growth of trees and plants)." (Surat At-Tariq (The Night-Comer): 12). And "And the mountains as pegs? (Surat An-Naba' (The Great News):7).



d) That these. sudden jerky movements of the continental plates are halted by the formation of mountains and this is clearly emphasized in the verse "And the mountains He has fixed firmly, (Surat An-Nazi'at (Those Who Pull Out): 32)., as well as in many other Qur’anic verses "And it is He Who spread out the earth, and placed therein firm mountains and rivers and of every kind of fruits He made Zawjain Ithnain (two in pairs-may mean two kinds or it may mean: of two varieties, e.g. black and white, sweet and sour, small and big).He brings the night as a cover over the day. Verily, in these things, there are Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.) for people who reflect." (Surat Ar-Ra'd (The Thunder): 3);



"And the earth We have spread out, and have placed therein firm mountains, and caused to grow therein all kinds of things in due proportion." (Surat Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract): 19);

"And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and We placed therein broad highways for them to pass through, that they may be guided." (Surat Al-Anbiya' (The Prophets): 31);



"Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water)? Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but most of them know not!" (Surat An-Naml (The Ants): 61);

"And have placed therein firm, and tall mountains, and have given you to drink sweet water?" (Surat Al-Mursalat (Those sent forth): 27);



"And the mountains He has fixed firmly." (Surat An-Nazi'at (Those Who Pull Out): 32)
 
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Hi whatsthepoint
... and then says: My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that ...
I understand why you bring this up, how ever I argue that you are misunderstanding this description. God does not decide at the spot 40 days after. It is very apparent from a lot of other things. Therefor the correct interpretation of this simply cannot be that "he decides it then".

1. God is omniscient
Omniscience includes knowing everything in advance of it happening. This thus includes all choices God will make, for if he wouldn't know them in advance, he wouldn't know the eventual outcome either.
2. God is timeless
The dimension of time is part of the creation, God is not bound to it. Therefor all his decision are "ungrounded" to specific era's in time.
3. Everything is predestined.
Every single thing, from a leaf falling from a tree to every decision you will make by free will has been written down on tablets. The whole history of mankind, from dawn to judgment day is included in that. That means it's already written down whether this child will be male and female, and obviously God does not decide it on the spot there.

So what could the correct meaning be then? Well obviously I can only speculate, but I assume the following:
It's quite interesting how it says "he decides as he desires" So for all we know this sub-sentence is not meant to indicate that he decides it at that specific time, but only to remind people that God does indeed decides everything.
So given the three mentioned reasons why your interpretation cannot be correct; given we're dealing with hadeeth and not ayaath (which aren't necesairly 100% accurate); and given that the sentence leaves room for personal interpretation; I would hardly consider this an inconsistency within the Islamic teachings.
 
Hi whatsthepoint

I understand why you bring this up, how ever I argue that you are misunderstanding this description. God does not decide at the spot 40 days after. It is very apparent from a lot of other things. Therefor the correct interpretation of this simply cannot be that "he decides it then".

1. God is omniscient
Omniscience includes knowing everything in advance of it happening. This thus includes all choices God will make, for if he wouldn't know them in advance, he wouldn't know the eventual outcome either.
2. God is timeless
The dimension of time is part of the creation, God is not bound to it. Therefor all his decision are "ungrounded" to specific era's in time.
3. Everything is predestined.
Every single thing, from a leaf falling from a tree to every decision you will make by free will has been written down on tablets. The whole history of mankind, from dawn to judgment day is included in that. That means it's already written down whether this child will be male and female, and obviously God does not decide it on the spot there.

So what could the correct meaning be then? Well obviously I can only speculate, but I assume the following:
It's quite interesting how it says "he decides as he desires" So for all we know this sub-sentence is not meant to indicate that he decides it at that specific time, but only to remind people that God does indeed decides everything.
So given the three mentioned reasons why your interpretation cannot be correct; given we're dealing with hadeeth and not ayaath (which aren't necesairly 100% accurate); and given that the sentence leaves room for personal interpretation; I would hardly consider this an inconsistency within the Islamic teachings.
Good arguments. I disagree with your interpetation though, I believe that the expression "god decides" in this case means God lets the angle know what he wills so the winged creature can make it happen.
I find it strange that an angel has to ask the lord about the child's gender, eventhough the latter is determined in the moment of conception.

In any case, this hadith contradicts the one Azy posted; Azy's one says the angel visits the womb after 120 days have passed, whereas in this one the angles comes on the 40th day. Seeing that Bukhari is more reliable than any other hadith collections, this one is probably flawed. Both hold a weird description of the embrionic developemnt though.
 

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