Alleged Affirmations of Scientifically Accurate Verses

[asadxyz]

Greetings,


I think the thrust of the argument is perhaps slightly different from the way you are understanding it.

The claim that the Prophet (pbuh) may have learned about scientific information in Syria is not intended as a definitive statement, simply a possibility.

Remember, this argument is used to oppose the argument that says "Amazing scientific information is contained in the Qur'an; there is no way an illiterate man of that time could know about it; it must have been a divine revelation; there is no other possible explanation." Well, there is another possible explanation, and that is that he found out about it from a person alive in his time.

We don't know the details of the case, but we don't really need to - all the available evidence suggests that it was at least possible, and that in itself is all that is needed to reject one big plank of the scientific miracles argument in its "pre-cognition" form.

Peace

Though the Holy Quran is not a book of science but a book of guidance.If during its guidance if it has to give some scientific facts ,those are valid and correct scietifically.
The Question is how did the Holy Prophet PBUH was able to give them in this miraculous book .There are only two possibilities
1:The scientific facts were well know at that time and prophet PBUH got them through regular education from most advanced academic insititute
2:These facts were not know at that time but Holy Prophet PBUH got them directly through divine revelation.
Either you prove the clause one above or accept the clause two that it is Divine revelation.
But ------------------- Atheist always depend and rely only and only upon assumptions ,assumption ,assumptions ,assumption ,nothing else because it is something 'in-built " problem.

 

[aamirsaab]

....

We don't know the details of the case, but we don't really need to - all the available evidence suggests that it was at least possible, and that in itself is all that is needed to reject one big plank of the scientific miracles argument in its "pre-cognition" form.

Peace

Hmm I guess so. I still haven't seen any evidence to show that any human being had an influence on the Quran (by this I mean plagiarism) though. Neither have I seen any evidence (from a muslim or non-muslim for that matter) that Muhammad[pbuh] was told these scientific facts by a human being - I've heard plenty of allegations but no real proof

 

[Trumble]

There are only two possibilities
1:The scientific facts were well know at that time and prophet PBUH got them through regular education from most advanced academic insititute
2:These facts were not know at that time but Holy Prophet PBUH got them directly through divine revelation.
Either you prove the clause one above or accept the clause two that it is Divine revelation.

Firstly you are making one huge assumption yourself, which is that these so-called 'scientific facts' are anything of the sort. To me it seems obvious most are nothing but a mixture of liberal (and often wildly out-of-context) 'interpretation' and wishful thinking. That includes everything on Abdul Fattah's list except the embryology. I've seen all the 'refutations' and all are based on exactly the same flexibility in 'interpretation' as the original claims.

Secondly, with those that are left no "advanced academic institute" would have been necessary. Much, if not exactly common knowledge, would hardly have been esoteric.

Thirdly, your conclusion wouldn't follow even if those things were not true (and I certainly don't expect you to accept they are!) It's just "God of the gaps" again.

I still haven't seen any evidence to show that any human being had an influence on the Quran (by this I mean plagiarism) though. Neither have I seen any evidence (from a muslim or non-muslim for that matter) that Muhammad[pbuh] was told these scientific facts by a human being - I've heard plenty of allegations but no real proof

If there was any 'real proof' Islam would be a historical curiosity, not a living religion. Likewise, if there were any 'real proof' the Qur'an is a Divine revelation then atheism would be a historical curiosity! However, czgibson is right; in this case 'possibility' is sufficient to make the point. But not to settle the case, of course.

 

[asadxyz]

Firstly you are making one huge assumption yourself, which is that these so-called 'scientific facts' are anything of the sort. To me it seems obvious most are nothing but a mixture of liberal (and often wildly out-of-context) 'interpretation' and wishful thinking. That includes everything on Abdul Fattah's list except the embryology. I've seen all the 'refutations' and all are based on exactly the same flexibility in 'interpretation' as the original claims.

Secondly, with those that are left no "advanced academic institute" would have been necessary. Much, if not exactly common knowledge, would hardly have been esoteric.

Thirdly, your conclusion wouldn't follow even if those things were not true (and I certainly don't expect you to accept they are!) It's just "God of the gaps" again.




If there was any 'real proof' Islam would be a historical curiosity, not a living religion. Likewise, if there were any 'real proof' the Qur'an is a Divine revelation then atheism would be a historical curiosity! However, czgibson is right; in this case 'possibility' is sufficient to make the point. But not to settle the case, of course.

It is not your fault.This is some in built problem in all who think like you.

 

[tetsujin]

If no one else at the time accepted the claim of its divinity, how do you explain the spread of Islam at least locally?
etc....


Cheers

Please, allow me to rephrase the question. If Galen, Ptolemy, Democritus, and most (if not all) of the people who made scientific discoveries prior to the prophet Muhammad did not claim to have had divine revelation, then what would be so special about having the same information passed down to one man who possibly had contact with people who knew about the aforementioned scientific discoveries.

You do yourself no favor in arguing that the persecution of the early Muslims is a point which proves the divinity of the Qur'an. Almost every single religion throughout history has been seen a a revolutionary movement in the society. Those already in power have been keen to protect their own comfortable positions, and usually had their own beliefs with claimed some other divine revelation or divine favors which required sacrifices and proselytizing.

All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[جوري]

Please, allow me to rephrase the question. If Galen, Ptolemy, Democritus, and most (if not all) of the people who made scientific discoveries prior to the prophet Muhammad did not claim to have had divine revelation, then what would be so special about having the same information passed down to one man who possibly had contact with people who knew about the aforementioned scientific discoveries.

You re-phrasing the question doesn't make a case for your thread, It makes for indolent redundancy, aside from the apparent need to beat a dead horse or go around in circles....perhaps I should make this as a color by number, you might see the whole picture?
1- The Quran isn't a book about scientific discoveries, it is a book of social and moral guidance ( an admonition) to man-kind.. should they choose to walk the straight path!

2-The fact that there are scientific discoveries in the Quran is an added bonus to those, so that all doubt is removed from their heart!

3-It is indeed wonderful that you have acquainted yourself with Greek philosophers and holy men alike.. still doesn't change a few known facts..

a- the west claims to have had its roots in Greek civilization, I ask you AGAIN, where was Ptolemy et al. when Roger the II crushed Al-Idrisi's globe or when Europe was steeped in the superstition of the dark ages? it phases me as to why you deliberately ignore those little factoids history has left us with... it wasn't lost to the Muslims, why was it lost to its supposed place of conception?


b- Muslims may or may not have taken Greek work, but not only did they introduce it to the ignorant west, but improvised many of the incorrect notions previousely thought especially in the field of mathematics, I reference you of course to the article by Dr. George Saliba a few pages ago


4- Others didn't claim to have divine revelation, simply because there was nothing divine about their revelations. I don't pick an article in the NEJM and say wow, this is inviting me to walk the stright path. For one to make such an inference to begin with, one must compare pieces of literature so as to not be constantly speaking out of their ***

You do yourself no favor in arguing that the persecution of the early Muslims is a point which proves the divinity of the Qur'an. Almost every single religion throughout history has been seen a a revolutionary movement in the society. Those already in power have been keen to protect their own comfortable positions, and usually had their own beliefs with claimed some other divine revelation or divine favors which required sacrifices and proselytizing.

All the best wishes,

Neither the sacrifices of early Muslims, Nor the plight of the prophet, is why I consider the Quran divine in source... There are Multiple reasons, at the very fulcrum of it, the language itself which hasn't been met on any stratum.

The one thing I have determined from this futile correspondence with your person, is that you are not at all whom you claim to be.. and it is such a shame that I had given you the benefit of the doubt for so long.. least you can do is offer some intellectual deference...'faysal'


It appears we have reached a cul de sac .. I prefer to part ways with folks whose company doesn't suit me on any strata..

best of luck to you

cheers

 

[tetsujin]

It appears we have reached a cul de sac .. I prefer to part ways with folks whose company doesn't suit me on any strata..

best of luck to you

I agree. Best of luck to you as well, since I've already covered all of those points I will move on.

Thank you for your participation.

All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Though the Holy Quran is not a book of science but a book of guidance.If during its guidance if it has to give some scientific facts ,those are valid and correct scietifically.
The Question is how did the Holy Prophet PBUH was able to give them in this miraculous book .There are only two possibilities
1:The scientific facts were well know at that time and prophet PBUH got them through regular education from most advanced academic insititute
2:These facts were not know at that time but Holy Prophet PBUH got them directly through divine revelation.
Either you prove the clause one above or accept the clause two that it is Divine revelation.
But ------------------- Atheist always depend and rely only and only upon assumptions ,assumption ,assumptions ,assumption ,nothing else because it is something 'in-built " problem.

Total misunderstanding of the argument. Never mind - it happens all the time.

Peace

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Faysal

So even if that information was presented to you or him, we wouldn't know if he understood it. This is why I did not claim that the Quran was plagiarized.

Well things are bit more complex then how you suggest.
It's more then just a matter of did he understand it. The prophet (peace be upon him) didn't travel all over the world. A good start would be if you showed that he traveled to a region were this was known in the first place. I'm not a historian, and the Islamic tradition also speaks scarsly of what happened before the start of the revelation. So I genuinely wouldn't know whether or not these trips during his life as a merchant included destinations like Egypt or the Roman empire. But I grant that it is indeed beside the question since your claim was not that it was plagiarized. Nevertheless I still found it important enough to mention. My apologies for venturing off-topic ^_^

I simply asked why you would claim that it was divine revelation when no one else who knew at that time made such a claim.

Well, you completely ignored the first question I asked. Can you show that this information was known to mankind uberhaut! Can you show that these specific details I listed in my previous posts were indeed known to other people besides the Prophet (Peace be upon him). My claim is that these details (especially the ones I picked out) were not known at all in any place. In fact I will take this claim even further, some of the details were so specific that it appears impossible for someone to find out without advanced knowledge of science as well as very specific tools to study the environment. So it's not just so much that I argue that nobody else knew, but also that there was no plausible way for people to discover it back then in the first place.

Secondly, lets say purely for the sake of argument, that you can show me that this knowledge was indeed already know by other people. Or lets just say you can illustrate how some of these specific details could have been discovered with primitive equipment and investigation, or perhaps merely by philosophical analysis. Even if you could show me that, then you still have to acknowledge that there's a huge difference between somebody who lives near an ocean and discovers some specific characteristics of the sea on one hand, and somebody who lives in the middle of the dessert and makes a discovery about very specific characteristics of the sea.

In other words, to put a long story in short, the Prophet (peace be upon him) had no plausible way of knowing these details other than trough revelation.

Scrolling back, I see that you have already made some claims about the works of Galen and Nemesius among others. So let my clarify the details so it becomes clear these early scientists did not cover this:
1. Microscopic form of embryo's (first few days/weeks, till to small to notice with naked eye)
2. The existence of different waves under the surface (not just the existence of undercurrent, but the knowledge that there is a clearcut division between layers of sea that acts similar to surface waves).
3. The correlation between those waves and the fraction and partial reflection of light
4. The constant expansion of the universe (As opposed to the idea of a steady-state-universe)
5. The underground structure of Mountains (I'm talking formations of Mountains up to kilometers deep, far further then their height above surface)
6. The effect mountains have on earthquakes (How mountains react to plate tectonic movement)

 

[asadxyz]

Greetings,


Total misunderstanding of the argument. Never mind - it happens all the time.

Peace

No misunderstanding.None of you could provide any evidence/proof that the Holy Prophet got science education from Syrian institutes or name of his teachers.Only Theories ,assumptions ,Nothing else {A classical modus operandi of atheists} I wish anyone of you could use his brain.

 

[Trumble]

No misunderstanding.None of you could provide any evidence/proof that the Holy Prophet got science education from Syrian institutes or name of his teachers.Only Theories ,assumptions ,Nothing else {A classical modus operandi of atheists} I wish anyone of you could use his brain.

I'm afraid all you've done is proven his point.

For the purposes of the argument it is sufficient to establish that the possibility cannot be ruled out. To do that 'proof' is not necessary and a theory relying on plausible assumptions is perfectly adequate. To take another historical example to illustrate, it is quite possible that Napoleon ate Chicken Marengo for dinner on 13 June 1806. But I can neither 'prove' it nor name the cook.

For the atheist it suffices to show that the possibility being discussed is more likely than divine revalation. That is very easy to do for atheists, and of course impossible for muslims which is why the whole argument is pretty futile.

 

[asadxyz]

I'm afraid all you've done is proven his point.

For the purposes of the argument it is sufficient to establish that the possibility cannot be ruled out. To do that 'proof' is not necessary and a theory relying on plausible assumptions is perfectly adequate. To take another historical example to illustrate, it is quite possible that Napoleon ate Chicken Marengo for dinner on 13 June 1806. But I can neither 'prove' it nor name the cook.

For the atheist it suffices to show that the possibility being discussed is more likely than divine revalation. That is very easy to do for atheists, and of course impossible for muslims which is why the whole argument is pretty futile.

Suppositions Or possibilities Or theories without concrete proof or evidence = Atheism

Try to be scientific
Best of luck

 

[Azy]

'scuse me for injecting myself into the thread again.

It's more then just a matter of did he understand it. The prophet (peace be upon him) didn't travel all over the world. A good start would be if you showed that he traveled to a region were this was known in the first place.

There are many biographies/histories of the Prophet's life that refer to his journey to Syria as a youth and again at the request of Khadija. I believe it is from Khatib al-Waqidi but I don't read arabic so you'd have to check that one.

Scrolling back, I see that you have already made some claims about the works of Galen and Nemesius among others. So let my clarify the details so it becomes clear these early scientists did not cover this:
1. Microscopic form of embryo's (first few days/weeks, till to small to notice with naked eye)

Mingled fluids, clot, lump. People seem keen to push this point but why has noone said anything about God waiting 42 days to determine the sex and characteristics of the child?

2. The existence of different waves under the surface (not just the existence of undercurrent, but the knowledge that there is a clearcut division between layers of sea that acts similar to surface waves).

24:40 Or [else, their deeds are] [60] like the depths of darkness upon an abysmal sea, made yet more dark by wave billowing over wave, with [black] clouds above it all: depths of darkness, layer upon layer, [61] [so that] when one holds up his hand, he can hardly see it: for he to whom God gives no light, no light whatever has he!

The scene seems to be illustrating extreme darkness by example of a dark and stormy sea, wave crashing over wave, rather than the ocean separated into vertical layers.

3. The correlation between those waves and the fraction and partial reflection of light

Not really sure what you're referring to, maybe you could slip in a verse to clarify?

If you're saying what I think you are, why would lower layers of water be relevant when refraction and partial reflection occur at the air/water interface?

4. The constant expansion of the universe (As opposed to the idea of a steady-state-universe)

"Thus said God, Jehovah, preparing The heavens, and stretching them out..." Isaiah 42:5

5. The underground structure of Mountains (I'm talking formations of Mountains up to kilometers deep, far further then their height above surface)
6. The effect mountains have on earthquakes (How mountains react to plate tectonic movement)

Quran 13:3 And it is He who has spread the earth wide and placed on it firm mountains and running waters.
Quran 78:6-7 Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?

Earth spread out and pegged down? How did the scientists miss that one?
Comparing mountains to pegs is possibly the biggest stretch I have seen so far, mountains are formed when tectonic plates collide and crumple or one rides over the other. If the Quran could be assumed to be speaking of the internal structure of mountains, "peg" tells us nothing about that, not to mention that the structure of one mountain can be vastly different from that of another.

Quran 16:15 And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you.

Mountains form where tectonic plates meet and move against each other, also causing earthquakes. We also know that mountains were not 'set' here and are not fixed, but are continuously changing. There was a time when the current ones did not exist and new ones will be created in the future.

None of you could provide any evidence/proof that the Holy Prophet got science education from Syrian institutes or name of his teachers.

All the millions of muslims who have memorised and later recited those passages had to do so at an institute?

Suppositions Or possibilities Or theories without concrete proof or evidence = Atheism

The whole of your initial claim i.e. Islam is true and is divine revelation is without concrete proof or evidence.

 

[Trumble]

If you're saying what I think you are, why would lower layers of water be relevant when refraction and partial reflection occur at the air/water interface?

Both occur at the interface of two water layers of different density, as well as where air meets water. Rather academic, though, as (IMVHO) the so-called 'correlation' is a classic piece of Qur'anic sciento-tosh. Folks can make their own minds up.

"Or (the Unbelievers' state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds: Depths of darkness, one Above another: if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom ALLAH Giveth not light, There is no light!"
[21:40]

....

1. A light ray is composed of seven colours. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue. Green, Yellow, Orange and Red(VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disapperance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 metres there is complete darkness.{Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p.27}

source

 

[asadxyz]

'scuse me for injecting myself into the thread again.There are many biographies/histories of the Prophet's life that refer to his journey to Syria as a youth and again at the request of Khadija. I believe it is from Khatib al-Waqidi but I don't read arabic so you'd have to check that one.
Mingled fluids, clot, lump. People seem keen to push this point but why has noone said anything about God waiting 42 days to determine the sex and characteristics of the child?




24:40 Or [else, their deeds are] [60] like the depths of darkness upon an abysmal sea, made yet more dark by wave billowing over wave, with [black] clouds above it all: depths of darkness, layer upon layer, [61] [so that] when one holds up his hand, he can hardly see it: for he to whom God gives no light, no light whatever has he!

The scene seems to be illustrating extreme darkness by example of a dark and stormy sea, wave crashing over wave, rather than the ocean separated into vertical layers.

Not really sure what you're referring to, maybe you could slip in a verse to clarify?

If you're saying what I think you are, why would lower layers of water be relevant when refraction and partial reflection occur at the air/water interface?
"Thus said God, Jehovah, preparing The heavens, and stretching them out..." Isaiah 42:5

Quran 13:3 And it is He who has spread the earth wide and placed on it firm mountains and running waters.
Quran 78:6-7 Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?

Earth spread out and pegged down? How did the scientists miss that one?
Comparing mountains to pegs is possibly the biggest stretch I have seen so far, mountains are formed when tectonic plates collide and crumple or one rides over the other. If the Quran could be assumed to be speaking of the internal structure of mountains, "peg" tells us nothing about that, not to mention that the structure of one mountain can be vastly different from that of another.

Quran 16:15 And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you.

Mountains form where tectonic plates meet and move against each other, also causing earthquakes. We also know that mountains were not 'set' here and are not fixed, but are continuously changing. There was a time when the current ones did not exist and new ones will be created in the future.

All the millions of muslims who have memorised and later recited those passages had to do so at an institute?
The whole of your initial claim i.e. Islam is true and is divine revelation is without concrete proof or evidence.

Proof of Divine revelation :
1:There are millions of Huffaaz of the Holy Quran who recite the Holy Quran every year.I challenge you to bring only 1000 such person who can recite the any book of the size of the Holy Quran with such accuracy .
2:It is the Quran who told us that Procreation without union of male and female gamete is possible which Science is revealing today.
We do not believe in 'suppositions' theories ' assumptions' because we use our brains.

 

[Trumble]

Proof of Divine revelation :

1:There are millions of Huffaaz of the Holy Quran who recite the Holy Quran every year.I challenge you to bring only 1000 such person who can recite the any book of the size of the Holy Quran with such accuracy.

'Proof'? Only of some very impressive feats of memory. But the ancient Indian classics were memorised for centuries (and indeed still are) and are MUCH, MUCH longer than the Qur'an. Many actors could reel off Shakespeare of a similar word count to the Qur'an. It's all about motive, or necessity, to learn, not divine origin.

2:It is the Quran who told us that Procreation without union of male and female gamete is possible which Science is revealing today.

'Proof' only of willingness to throw reason to the wind when there is a need to believe. The Qur'an says nothing about "male and female gametes". Or at least not without suitable 'interpretation' and a large dollop of wishful thinking it doesn't.

And so on, and so on. There is no 'proof', or anything vaguely resembling it. It is, always has been and always will be a faith thing. I just don't see the problem with admitting the fact.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi azy

'scuse me for injecting myself into the thread again.

Come in, take a seat, fancy a cup of coffee? ^_^

There are many biographies/histories of the Prophet's life that refer to his journey to Syria as a youth and again at the request of Khadija. I believe it is from Khatib al-Waqidi but I don't read arabic so you'd have to check that one.

That's only one part of the assignment, now show that they indeed had this knowledge in syria.

Mingled fluids, clot, lump. People seem keen to push this point but why has noone said anything about God waiting 42 days to determine the sex and characteristics of the child?

Could you clarify your point?

The scene seems to be illustrating extreme darkness by example of a dark and stormy sea, wave crashing over wave, rather than the ocean separated into vertical layers.

I've put three most accepted English translations to remove doubt:
YUSUFALI: Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
PICKTHAL: Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covereth him a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness. When he holdeth out his hand he scarce can see it. And he for whom Allah hath not appointed light, for him there is no light.
SHAKIR: Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.

Also I don't know if you know this, but the only place where waves "crash over" each other is at a few meters from the cost. At full sea waves don't crash in to each other but instead follow up. Also you're adding interpretation, you're saying that the reference to darkness, is the stormy weather, whereas the verse says quite clearly that the different waves them self cause darkness rather then "symbolically refer to it". It's kind of silly really, to infer that muslims interpret the verse in the wrong way because they want the miracle to be true. If you look at it, your the only one who's making interpretations. The muslim explanation of the verse is a literal and not an interpretative explanation.

Not really sure what you're referring to, maybe you could slip in a verse to clarify?
If you're saying what I think you are, why would lower layers of water be relevant when refraction and partial reflection occur at the air/water interface?

See the thing is, each wave has it's own density, salinity, and temperature. So these different waves act like different mediums, between the waves is a surface, and light reflects partially at each wave it passes. In other words, each wave refracts light, and by the process a small part of light is reflected untill eventually you'll have complete darkness. That is the reason the bottom of the sea is dark sea, as the verse suggested.

"Thus said God, Jehovah, preparing The heavens, and stretching them out..." Isaiah 42:5

Close, but not quite the same. This verse refers to methodology. the heavens were stretched out. Doesn't necessarily mean they are constantly expanded. There's definitely no emphasis on that. The Qur'an states quite clear "constantly" expanding them.

Earth spread out and pegged down? How did the scientists miss that one? Comparing mountains to pegs is possibly the biggest stretch I have seen so far,

Scientists haven't missed this at all, but apearently you have missed science class
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g112/mtn_roots.html

Mountains form where tectonic plates meet and move against each other, also causing earthquakes.

Yes I know that, and once a mountain is created it prevents further earthquakes. You're mixing up method of creation with function.

We also know that mountains were not 'set' here and are not fixed, but are continuously changing. There was a time when the current ones did not exist and new ones will be created in the future.

You're hung up on the word set. I think it's unfair. What other verb should God have used to describe the process of formation in an old language.

 

[asadxyz]

'Proof'? Only of some very impressive feats of memory. But the ancient Indian classics were memorised for centuries (and indeed still are) and are MUCH, MUCH longer than the Qur'an. Many actors could reel off Shakespeare of a similar word count to the Qur'an. It's all about motive, or necessity, to learn, not divine origin.



'Proof' only of willingness to throw reason to the wind when there is a need to believe. The Qur'an says nothing about "male and female gametes". Or at least not without suitable 'interpretation' and a large dollop of wishful thinking it doesn't.

And so on, and so on. There is no 'proof', or anything vaguely resembling it. It is, always has been and always will be a faith thing. I just don't see the problem with admitting the fact.

I have challenged you bring just 1000 persons who could recite any book of the size of the Holy Quran (it is not the question of a few persons who memorize for the time beings) with such accuracy.Produce them on any televison ,I assure you I will leave Islam.OPEN CHALLENGE OPEN CHALLENGE ,OPEN CHALLENGE .
2:Quran Declared Procreation of Jesus christ without Father 1500 years ago.
OPEN CHALLENGE ,OPEN CHALLEGE ,OPEN CHALLEGE

 

[Trumble]

I have challenged you bring just 1000 persons who could recite any book of the size of the Holy Quran (it is not the question of a few persons who memorize for the time beings) with such accuracy.Produce them on any televison ,I assure you I will leave Islam.OPEN CHALLENGE OPEN CHALLENGE ,OPEN CHALLENGE .

I see. So you want me to go out, find a 1,000 people (out of six billion or so), gather them together and put them all on a TV show for the sole purpose of persuading you to leave Islam? Exactly what have you been smoking?

2:Quran Declared Procreation of Jesus christ without Father 1500 years agPEN CHALLENGE ,OPEN CHALLEGE ,OPEN CHALLEGE

Fascinating. Now show me where it mentions male and female gametes and what that has to do with 'modern science'. That is supposed to be 'proof'?!

 

[Trumble]

Sorry, duplicate post.