Answering Atheism in one paragraph

[~Zaria~]

in the face of overwhelming evidence for the big bang?

WHERE is this evidence?

We wait with baited breathes......

 

[Pygoscelis]

You can't state that you don't need to present evidence and at the same time in the next statement speak of 'God of the Gaps' and then further meander the post with irrelevant comments about thunder gods and harvest gods. As I stated before, there's no point discussing finite details if you don't accept the premise, if you're going to find a flaw in the premise, then you must counter it with something more substantial than I don't have to, or catch all terms like 'God of the Gaps' otherwise what is the point of having what should be a fruitful discussion on the subject?

best,

You just demanded that I provide an explanation of the universe that doesn't resort to God of the Gaps. I told you I don't have one, and that admitting that is the proper default position.

Find a flaw in what premise? That the universe is a closed system? That Gods exist? I have no idea what you are going on about now.

Perhaps you have misread my posts or perhaps I have not articulated them well?

 

[جوري]

You just demanded that I provide an explanation of the universe that doesn't resort to God of the Gaps. I told you I don't have one, and that admitting that is the proper default position.

Rather I asked you to make good on your original post.. the one with the -'endless possibilities' how do those reconcile that statement with your lack of putting any explanations forth? (which btw I could accept if the lot of you weren't so vehement & exasperated and down right militant about your convictions or lack thereof!)

best,

 

[~Zaria~]

Why so? Perhaps it goes back infinitely. Perhaps not. I don't pretend to know.

Are we supposed to follow a set of beliefs based on 'I dont know'?

If there is a first cause, then you have a creator, yes, or a creation force. I see no reason to assume it is a being, a sentient being, an intelligent being, a God being, or your particular God being.

So WHAT is it, that created everything?

You do not know?

Good.

Then, perhaps save us from your attempts at reasoning.

We are on a much more assured path. Alhamdulillah.

You mean people claiming to be his messengers. Keep in mind that false prophets have claimed to be messengers of false Gods. False Gods have also had holy books written for them. That your God and those speaking for him operate in the same or a similar way, makes me skeptical. I see no reason to see yours as genuine. I also have to wonder why a real all powerful God would restrict the transmission of his message to books, prophets, and other such human limitations. It seems to me he could transmit the message in a unique way that only an all powerful being could, or that he could just make it simply appear in our heads as fact.

No doubt, there is falsehood in this world. (Your posts as well as those of your friends are testimont to that.)

But, indeed the Creator of ALL that exists will not leave His creation to wander on blindly in confusion (lest they come up with theories such as the big bang, and then convince themselves to have evolved from apes).

He has indeed sent down messengers throughout time with the truth.
For those who wish to believe.

For those who wish to lay claim to their ape ancestory.....He has left them to their devices.

Soon enough, shall you know.


Imagine a car.
The MANUFACTURER has provided us with the MANUAL on its purpose and how to use it.

So, we chose to use the MANUAL.
And believe in the MANUFACTURER.

Rather than say, that the car appeared from nowhere.
And then, try to figure out how it is meant to be used.

So, I'll be driving along now...... : )
Thank God for the manual!

And you can stay behind and try to figure this out.

All the best!

(If you need a ride, its never too late to read the manual).


Regards

 

[Tyrion]

in what way does the story of creation contradict the big bang, perhaps you can enlighten us?

You might want to direct this to Zaria as well, since she was the one denying the big bangs credibility in Islam. If you're going to participate in a thread to (I assume) dispel ignorance, be fair about it.

Your lack of philosophical rigor is pitiable.

And Islamic people hold this to be plausible, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence for the big bang? Laughable to say the very least. Even contemporary fiction writers could have come up with a more poetic story.

First off, it's "Muslim", not "Islamic people". Second, you might wanna try sounding less condescending. You seem to be a student, so I'll just chalk it up to a freshman's over-inflated ego, but you won't win many people over if you continue to debate like this. (Assuming you're actually debating to inform and learn)

 

[Pygoscelis]

Are we supposed to follow a set of beliefs based on 'I dont know'?

Atheism is not a set of beliefs.

We are on a much more assured path. Alhamdulillah.

You think you are.

But, indeed the Creator of ALL that exists will not leave His creation to wander on blindly in confusion (lest they come up with theories such as the big bang, and then convince themselves to have evolved from apes).

He has indeed sent down messengers throughout time with the truth.
For those who wish to believe.

And yet, the world is full of millions of well meaning people, who very much wish to believe and know the true God, and most of them then find Gods and understandings of Gods that conflict with yours. Do you think the Christian, Jew, and Hindu are less genuine than the Muslim in their desire for spiritual truth and enlightenment? If your God exists, and if he is all powerful, then the only answer I can see is that he intends all of this confusion and the conflict and suffering that comes from it. Is that so?

 

[جوري]

You might want to direct this to Zaria as well, since she was the one denying the big bangs credibility in Islam. If you're going to participate in a thread to (I assume) dispel ignorance, be fair about it.

She has done no such thing. She's merely reduced it down to size for what it. There are many competing theories, string theories, oscillating universe, etc.
There's no point adhering to one or another as a form of religion. Theories are based on empiricism leaving room for many conjectures. Yet none of the conjectures prove or fail to disprove that a creator is needed for the entire process to go forth.
Science only works with observable phenomenon and surmises the rest.. many things come under that heading but none of them confute a first clause!

best,

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Peace upon you all,

"Among the repulsions of atheism for me has been its drastic uninterestingness as an intellectual position. Where was the ingenuity, the ambiguity, the humanity of saying that the universe just happend to happen and that when we're dead we're dead?"

John Updike

 

[TJ-alcapone]

First off, it's "Muslim", not "Islamic people". Second, you might wanna try sounding less condescending. You seem to be a student, so I'll just chalk it up to a freshman's over-inflated ego, but you won't win many people over if you continue to debate like this. (Assuming you're actually debating to inform and learn)

That was a terminological error. I stand corrected. Ironic isn't it, you call me out on being condescending while you are clearly no different. I don't care to win over people. How people wish to extrapolate from what is written is not my choice. People with fundamental religious outlooks very rarely question it. It is not in my power or concern to sweet talk them. If one makes a factual error I will call them out. We are all entitled to our opinions. I'll give you a piece of my mind and you give me yours.

You can't state that you don't need to present evidence and at the same time in the next statement speak of 'God of the Gaps' and then further meander the post with irrelevant comments about thunder gods and harvest gods

Incorrect. If there is a certain proposition in question, there is no need to provide an alternative. Simply showing that the proposition as lacking evidence would suffice.

in what way does the story of creation contradict the big bang, perhaps you can enlighten us?

You are indulging in selective confirmation bias now. You are taking an existing scientific concept, and then cherry picking your words from an unrelated book, and claiming that the book has some 'truth value' to it as certain words are interpreted in coherence with the scientific statement. Where is data, where are the studies, where are the in depth predictions There are none. Also if you want the Islamic creation story to be falsified, take the story of Adam and Eve for example. Or the story of how 6 day (or time period) story of the creations of the heavens and the earth. These are entirely contradictory to scientific claims. And finally, if you so happen to find a sentence that is coherent with science, you will have to stop at that. You can't extrapolate anything else. Or else you would be indulging in a non-sequitur.

You might want to direct this to Zaria as well, since she was the one denying the big bangs credibility in Islam. If you're going to participate in a thread to (I assume) dispel ignorance, be fair about it.

Thank you for being one of the gracious few to not ignore that. Often I find people in this forum to be at opposing ends of a empirical position, but yet they purposefully overlook that as they don't wish to question one another's beliefs just because they are fellow muslims. This is intellectual dishonesty. And this only goes to prove my point which I made a long time back on this forum. However fundamental and literal your interpretation of your holy book, the way you extrapolate from that will differ. And if you take into consideration thousands of miles, hundreds of years and vast differences in socio-economic conditions into consideration, theological differences are inevitable. So arguing and claiming that your interpretation is so how more valid is ludicrous. That is why religion is abstract, and should be judged by its followers.

The question is if or not you would give your holy book more credence than empirical knowledge. If the former is what is you choose, that scientific pursuit is of no meaning to you. One can believe anything. And every belief is substantiated by reasons, both good and bad. I so happen to think that empiricism is the best way forward. I find little to no value in paying heed to the words of desert dwelling prophets. Your opinions and hence world view might differ in this basic yet most important way.

 

[جوري]

Incorrect. If there is a certain proposition in question, there is no need to provide an alternative. Simply showing that the proposition as lacking evidence would suffice.

and so far none of you have shown that the proposition in question is in error. Also refer to my earlier post citing the null hypothesis and reflect on it before you gauge in an allegedly scientific topic to lessen the blows you'll receive for your inadequate attempts!

You are indulging in selective confirmation bias now. You are taking an existing scientific concept, and then cherry picking your words from an unrelated book, and claiming that the book has some 'truth value' to it as certain words are interpreted in coherence with the scientific statement. Where is data, where are the studies, where are the in depth predictions There are none. Also if you want the Islamic creation story to be falsified, take the story of Adam and Eve for example. Or the story of how 6 day (or time period) story of the creations of the heavens and the earth. These are entirely contradictory to scientific claims. And finally, if you so happen to find a sentence that is coherent with science, you will have to stop at that. You can't extrapolate anything else. Or else you would be indulging in a non-sequitur.

this is a great deal of drivel from someone who hasn't the slightest or most basic knowledge of the scientific method- you're rather pedantic and schoolboy like in your writing but with a lot of moxie that's not backed up by either good manners, actual scientific research, nor a proper falsification of what the other parties are bringing to the table.
If you prefer insults then none of us seem to have reached your level of expertise indeed you'll find yourself alone and will be better suited for other equally under-educated hoodlums. If you want an honest exchange then start by addressing the subjects (do some research from both sides without so much cognitive conservatism)
Don't be so militant about your beliefs greenhorn it is as unattractive as you find it!


best,

 

[May Ayob]

Greetings,
"Atheism is not a set of beliefs" Pygoscelis.
Pardon me,if I may ask,how is Atheism not a set of beliefs? it kind of is I mean theres more to Atheism than just giving up faith in God all together or that deciding since there are so many different religions in the world then it makes it all a sham because no one can prove or disprove the other they're either all valid or invalid at all,I've figured Atheism does seem to have a sequence of beliefs that turns into a belief system.

Sorry I'm having trouble replying to you using qoutes but for your other question. She didn't create or invent "her" God so she doesn't possess him in any way God is God the one Creator that everyone refers to please don't mention polytheistic religion and say what about krishna and zeus ...etc this is not where I am getting at.I actually don't believe that any nonmuslim is any less genuine in their desire of finding truth but God does not intend confusion and suffering but He gave us a mind for a reason and a big universe to contemplate on. Also I can simply answer you in all honesty that I really don't know why God would or wouldn't do anything but what he does or doesn't do can not be used as evidence to prove or deny His existance, we must have faith and trust in Him, I hope you will one day fibd faith in Him.

Peace be to you.

 

[Independent]

I actually don't believe that any nonmuslim is any less genuine in their desire of finding truth

Well said, May Ayob.

I hope you will one day fibd faith in Him

It's amazing how rarely anyone says that here.

 

[TJ-alcapone]

and so far none of you have shown that the proposition in question is in error. Also refer to my earlier post citing the null hypothesis and reflect on it before you gauge in an allegedly scientific topic to lessen the blows you'll receive for your inadequate attempts!

I indeed have shown that to be the case. Below is my post again from before. The argument from incredulity is a very common one of the obtuse religious mind.

The author of this thread MohammedR, has rather hastily and in an exceedingly incorrect way come to conclusions due to poor understanding of some rather basic scientific principles.


Originally Posted by MohammadR
The universe is a closed system.


The very first line is a rudimentary failure. When anyone refers to the universe, they are usually referring to the observable universe. What is beyond this observable universe? It is essentially a lost cause, as due to the nature of photos and how physics works. Beyond a particular distance, we cease to be able to observe radiation. So to assume that the universe to be a closed system is incorrect.

The big bang is the best possible scientific explanation as of today as to how the universe as we know came to be. All we know is that the universe expanded to what it is today from an infinitely dense and infinitely hot singularity. What happened before that, no one really knows. And in a philosophical sense, that question is meaningless as the time space continuum did not exist.

Trying to use Newtonian physics to explain the workings of the universe is perhaps your biggest mistake of all. Newtonian physics requires you to consider the constraints of absolute time and fixed 3 dimensional space (height, length and width) as being linear. That is why Eisenstein's contributions in relativity has been so monumental. Newtonian physics work very well on a day to day level to explain phenomenon related to earth. But as you hit the realm of space and time, the unravel rather easily.

This post exemplifies the dangerous nature of religious dogma. If you already have your conclusions drawn out from the start, objective pursuit of knowledge is impossible. You will scour through, filter and twist your extrapolations to fit your conclusions, rather than form hypotheses from data. Science is a bottom up approach, not a top-down one., has rather hastily and in an exceedingly incorrect way come to conclusions due to poor understanding of some rather basic scientific principles.

this is a great deal of drivel from someone who hasn't the slightest or most basic knowledge of the scientific method

You are the one spewing all the religious bunk and you accuse me of being the one lacking knowledge of the scientific method. Well done. You are free to delude yourself in any number of ways you want, but for once stop thinking that you understand science or its workings.

 

[جوري]

I indeed have shown that to be the case. Below is my post again from before. The argument from incredulity is a very common one of the obtuse religious mind.

yes I have had a look unfortunately twice. I am not seeing much substance to prove or disprove God in what you've written. Do you care to address that? I am not interested in third grade biology or physics or your ability to regurgitate information you've harnessed during your formative yrs.

You are the one spewing all the religious bunk and you accuse me of being the one lacking knowledge of the scientific method. Well done. You are free to delude yourself in any number of ways you want, but for once stop thinking that you understand science or its workings.

Where is the 'religious bunk' I have spewd? I can't imagine that anyone here cares enough as to what you choose to believe or disbelieve. Question is why do you make it so personal? Do you have something to prove? Do you need the members here to validate your fifth grade physics and or 5th grade biology?


best,

 

[Pygoscelis]

I've figured Atheism does seem to have a sequence of beliefs that turns into a belief system.

Atheists can have all sorts of different world views. Their atheism only states that they don't believe in Gods. She asked how can you base your life on atheism. You can't. Not on atheism alone. It's not like how people may base their life on Islam or Christianity or other systems of beliefs. Atheists have worldviews and systems of belief, but atheism isn't it. There is no holy book or doctrine or dogma or Imam or Pope. Not all atheists are humanists. Not all believe in evolution. Not all are materialists (some believe in life force or ESP or ghosts). Some are even culturally culturally adhered to religions (ie, Judaism) and follow dietary laws or rules of these religions without believing in the divinity of it.

God does not intend confusion and suffering but He gave us a mind for a reason and a big universe to contemplate on.

If he created the universe and has every power to change it at his whim, then clearly he desires it the way it is. You may argue that he sees value in the suffering and confusion, that maybe it is needed for some higher purpose or something, but I don't think you can really deny he wants it and yet maintain he is all powerful.

Peace be to you.

Unlike many who seem to say that out of tradition, I sense you actually mean it, and I appreciate the sentiment and wish peace upon you as well.

 

[Futuwwa]

In the time before time, God was. And when God wants to create something, all he needs to say is "Be", and it becomes. So it was that God created the world and the heavens. He made all the creatures, which walk, swim. Crawl and fly on the face of the earth. He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. And consider, as the Qur'an says, how God poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corm, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass. Then it was that God ordered the angels to go to the earth, and to bring seven handfuls of soil, all of different colours, from which he could model man. God took the seven kinds of earth and moulded them into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in Paradise. In Paradise, God created Eve, the first woman, from out of Adam's side. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded the angel to bow down before Adam. But Iblis, one amongst the angels, refused to do this, and thus began to disobey God's will. God place the couple in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of on forbidden tree, But the evil one tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When God knew that Adam and Eve had disobeyed him, he cast them out of Paradise and sent them to earth. But God is merciful. The earth was created to give food, drink and shelter to the human race. The sun, moon and stars give light. It is a good world, where everything has been created to serve people. And people, the Qur'an teaches, should serve God and obey his will. For those who submit to the will of God will be saved, and taken to live for ever in Paradise.

Cool story, bro. Did you pull that out of a corn flakes box? Because if it came out of any actual Islamic scripture, I'm sure I would have seen it.

Seems like someone failed at basic rigour ;D

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

If he created the universe and has every power to change it at his whim, then clearly he desires it the way it is. You may argue that he sees value in the suffering and confusion, that maybe it is needed for some higher purpose or something, but I don't think you can really deny he wants it and yet maintain he is all powerful.

You may find the following post helpful in response to this:

Greetings,

I'm willing to deal with this question, but first we have to define evil. What do you percieve as evil? Is it possible that your perception is very limited?

If you saw a man cutting a child's arm off, you would probably say he was evil, right? But if you learned that that man was a doctor amputating the child's arm to prevent sickness that would leave him crippled for life or kill him - then that man is not evil, he is good.

As for the question of Epicurus, I would agree that God is certanly able to eradicate evil, but before I say that He is not willing, let me clarify the understanding of God's will according to Islamic theology. Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih Al-Uthaymeen writes the following:

We believe that Allah’s Will (iraadah) is of two types:

1. Universal will (kawniyyah): So whatever occurs, happens only by His Will. It is not necessary that what occurs is actually liked by Allah. Thus, it is similar in meaning to volition (mashee’ah); as in Allah’s statement:

And if Allah had so wished, they would not have fought eachother, but Allah does whatever He wills. [Al-Baqarah 2:253]
If Allah Wills to leave you astray, He is your Lord. [Hood 11:34]

2. Legislated Will (shar’iyyah): It is not necessary that this Will should occur. This Will does not happen, except in what He loves and desires, such as in Allah the Exalted’s statement:

Allah desires to forgive you [An-Nisaa 4:27]

​

So according to this, I would say that God desires (shar'iyyah) that there be no evil, but He is not willing (kawniyyah) to actually enforce this desire since He has already entrusted human beings with this task. Consider an analogy. You allow a volunteer to do some job in your office which you could easily do youself, but you want them to do the work so that it will look good on their resume. Now, that's their job, you want it to get done, and you are entirely capable of doing it yourself. But you want them to do it themselves so it will benefit them.

The same is true for this world. We are given the position of God's viceroy on earth, to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Sure, God could do it Himself, but that's not His job, its ours. He is giving us the honor of serving Him, because He loves us and wants us to have this pleasure, as well as the pleasure of the hereafter. So if there's any evil in the world its our fault for not doing our job, not God's fault. It certainly is insolent for the employee to blame the employer when the employee doesn't finish his task!

So here I've explained the 'problem' without even getting into the idea of a test or a punishment.

Another useful post on the issue of suffering in this world: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134303424-evil-suffering.html#post1402052

 

[~Zaria~]

Greetings,

To recap what we have learnt so far:

1. The universe either began from 'nothing' - the meaning of which, is 'the absence of something'.
We all know that this is not possible.
There is not an entity on earth that arises from nothing.
Let all the atheists of the world try to re-create a scenario where something arises out of complete nothingness - and then perhaps we can re-consider.

2. The universe had to begin from 'something'.
And that something has to have had a Source.
A creator.
When one looks at a table/ a car/ a building, etc - we all accept that there was a 'creator' behind it.
Even though he/ she may not be seen - we will find it implausable that these items could have created themselves.

3. There is NO evidence to prove the Big Bang theory.
We have requested from our atheist friends to bring proof - a re-creatable and reproducible (on a smaller scale) model whereby current mathematical data used to create the hypothesis of the Big Bang can be proven.
The fact is that the Big Bang is nothing more than a Hypothesis, or in the words of TJ-alcapone himself: "The big bang is the best possible scientific explanation".
It is an 'explanation' that has been palmed off innocent lay-people, who are unable to comprehend the volumes of scientific jargon used to get to this point, as though it is a proven fact.
It is nothing more than a means to try to deny the existence of the One Supreme Creator.

A Creator that exists, despite of His creations denial of Him.
The very creations who happily accept the existence of 'creators' to what is produced and is used in the world.
But chose to deny the Supreme Creator of ALL.

4. There is NO logical explanation to account for the precision that we see in every aspect of life-form - from the eyes of an atheist.
The video that has been provided in my earlier post is just one means to direct us towards appreciating the flawless nature of this universe.
To assume that any life form arises each and every time - in its exact manner of development, by itself - without a Higher Power or 'director' mocks the intelligence of human-kind as a whole.
Try to build a bridge without an engineer......and then try to reproduce this bridge again and again and again - without any form of directive whatsoever, and lets see what type of structure will ensue.
We can understand these very basic and simple concepts when it comes to our day-to-day life.
But when it comes to our very purpose of life - which entails the need to give recognition to a Creator - we turn to ridiculous propositions, and then cannot understand why, 'religious' folk cannot follow this bizarre train of thought.


The following video is from the beautiful chapter of the Holy Quraan: Surah Mulk. Please watch and God-willingly re-consider:

"Blessed is He in Whose Hand is the dominion,
and He is Able to do all things.

Who has created death and life,
that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct.

And He is the Mighty, the Forgiving;

Who has created the seven heavens one above another,

You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates.

Look again! Can you see any flaws?
Then look again! And yet again!

Your sight will return back to you, weak and made dim."

I sincerely pray that you ponder over the meaning of your life.
Look at the tree outside your window - it grows perfectly, without any help from mankind.
It did not re-arrange itself by chance. How could it?
Look at your hands.
How perfectly designed.
You did not create them - even of those of your children - you had no part in their actual formation.
Did your beautiful eyes place themselves exactly in their sockets by magic?

How do you look on this world and see no master director?
No Supreme Being who is keeping you alive?

Is your end to the earth, to dust - and thats it?
What a sad, purposeless existence.


The muslims on this forum stand to gain absolutely naught, in your belief in Allah - the Creator, Fashioner, Sustainer of all.

Those who chose to follow explanations that lack all forms of logic and reasoning, may do so.

Your denial of my God, and your God does not lessen His existence in the least.


Regards.

​

​

 

[Independent]

The universe either began from 'nothing'

As was said early on in response to MohammadR's first post, it's not possible to say with our current state of knowledge that the universe began from nothing. Our universe may be one of many which interact with each other infinitely, both in the past and into the future. As far as the multiverse is concerned, it may be that there there never was a beginning, and there will be no end.

This should not be an unimaginable concept - after all, Allah and Heaven are also described as existing infinitely.

There is NO evidence to prove the Big Bang theory.

As has been pointed out, this flatly contradicts the views of some others in this thread and elsewhere. The Bang Bang theory has been enthusiastically adopted by many Muslims and scholars and seen as compatible with scripture.

My personal reaction - and I hope I'm not expressing this in an offensive or disrespectful way, I'm just trying to describe my feelings - is that this demonstrates the risk of using science to support or verify scripture (Islamic or otherwise). On the one hand, that science may be revised or even completely replaced. On the other hand, the language of scripture is often beautiful, poetic and metaphorical - but not very scientific (no reason why it should be). If it were exact, we would have been making new scientific discoveries from the text, rather than trying to confirm discoveries made elsewhere.

In fact, if the Big Bang theory were indeed in the future to be definitively proven wrong and replaced, then the apparent 'confirmatory text' in the Qu'ran would be reinterpreted. The meaning of the Qu'ran should be for all time, not simply redefined as the next scientific theory comes along.

To summarise: there are many possible reasons for faith, but the 'something from nothing' argument can't be one of them unless/until we understand more about our universe.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

My perspnal reaction - and I hope I'm not expressing this in an offensive or disrespectful way, I'm just trying to describe my feelings - is that this demonstrates the risk of using science to support or verify scripture (Islamic or otherwise). On the one hand, that science may be revised or even completely replaced. On the other hand, the language of scripture is often beautiful, poetic and metaphorical - but not very scientific (no reason why it should be). If it were exact, we would have been making new scientific discoveries from the text, rather than trying to confirm discoveries made elsewhere.

In fact, if the Big Bang theory were indeed in the future to be definitively proven wrong and replaced, then the apparent 'confirmatory text' in the Qu'ran would be reinterpreted. The meaning of the Qu'ran should be for all time, not simply redefined as the next scientific theory comes along.

To summarise: there are many possible reasons for faith, but the 'something from nothing' argument can't be one of them unless/until we understand more about our universe.

I haven't been really following this thread but I feel the need to respond to the above. The Qur'an talks about a Creator who created everything and therefore what He says is going to be in accordance with facts, be they scientific or otherwise. Islam is not in need to be proven by science because by definition science is "the systematic study of the nature and behaviour of the material and physical universe, based on observation, experiment, and measurement, and the formulation of laws to describe these facts in general terms". Based on this definition science is human study, subject to the limitations, restrictions and constraints of a human being. Therefore, decisive answers can never be found in science alone because ultimately man played no part in bringing himself into this world and he will never find true direction until he is given divine guidance.

All scientific facts that are in agreement with Qur'an are correct and all else is, quite frankly, false. And this is how it will always remain regardless of widely accepted theories and guesses.

1400 years ago Allah revealed: "And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating." (Qur'an 21:32)

Under three layers of darkness (the skin, the blood and the womb) Allah revealed about the embryo: "We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an 'alaqah' (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the 'alaqah' into a 'mudghah' (chewed-like substance)..." (Quran 23:12-14)

And Allah also says about the sweet and salt water: "He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress." (Quran, 55:19-20)

Who could have known all of this 1400 years ago? A man who never left the deserts of Arabia, was illiterate and never once set foot on sea? The only one who knows all of this is the One who has created all that exists. The signs that point to a Creator are not limited to this: what makes your heart beat every second for up to 80 to a 100 years without the human ever once giving it that instruction? There is a cause which creates every affect, and the Creator makes the cause by way of divine decree and the affect is that you are able to perceive with your five sense, the insects are able to live and make their homes with the exact tools on their bodies that is needed for their survival and the four seasons change – all without human intervention. To this Allah revealed: "These are indeed signs for those who reflect" (Qur'an)

"He Who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no incongruity will you see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn your vision (upon it) once more: can you see any flaw? Turn your vision (upon it) again and yet again: (and every time) your vision will fall back upon you, dazzled and truly defeated."[Al-Qur'an 67:3-4]