Are morals derived from religion/God??

[borboski]

Ok fair enough. So what are you trying to establish then?! If you say that we in "this day and age" should not follow the "oppinions" of one man (any prophet you might want to indicate), why in the least should we follow your oppinion that you try to present to us then?! If you do are as you say above and if you do not want us to take your oppinions, then what is your purpose of being here?!

Anyway you deserve to be thanked for your sincerity.

You aren't quoting me there thinking that the statement in the quote marks is my own view, are you?

 

[Sunnih]

So you complain I havent replyed to your questions and now you say it doesnt matter? So why did you complain?



Im not sure i understand what your saying here.


Actually no we are not. However we are all atheists to one point or another. I assum you dont believe in Zeus do you? Im not sure how you can think everyone is religous. You have to have a religion to be religous dont you?
"assuming we are using religious in the context of religions and not (im religous about chocolate) "




I agree that for some poeple this discussion is pointless, however thankfully several people dont think its pointless.

Atheism is a religion whether you call it that or not. Anything to do with the existance or non existance of God is a religion. A religion is not only what people declare as such. In this sense I said your religion.

 

[Sunnih]

You aren't quoting me there thinking that the statement in the quote marks is my own view, are you?

If you are thinking that I am quoting you verbatim then no I am not. However if you think that I am quoting from your position then yes I am. Enough proof for it are your posts. (By the way I did not mean to offend you, so do not take it that way).

 

[wilberhum]

Atheism is a religion whether you call it that or not. Anything to do with the existance or non existance of God is a religion. A religion is not only what people declare as such. In this sense I said your religion.

It always amazes me when people use there own definition for things.
[PIE]Religion: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.[/PIE]
Not the absents there of.
Do you have any other words that you make up your own definitions for?

 

[Joe98]

Christians belive all citizens of a city must be killed for idol worshipping ?

How & why other punishment in Bible are babaric ????

Any barbaric punishment is the Bible is against Christianity and is rejected by Christians.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Any barbaric punishment is the Bible is against Christianity and is rejected by Christians.

I would love to hear comments from my Christians bro's & sisters......do they reject their holy book ????

 

[Trumble]

Religion: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.

'Making it up' is exactly what all English dictionaries do in the case of 'religion', and they have yet to get it right. Religion is a terribly difficult thing to define. The definition you quote shows the usual Western theist bias; there is no requirement for "worship of a deity or deities" or belief in divine involvement in anything.

The only attempt that comes close is Ninian Smart's seven part definition;

Experience - "Religious experience," very non-ordinary

Social - More than one person claiming Experience

Narrative - Story of Experience for later participants

Dogma - Beliefs, must be rational and logical within entire system

Ethical - Behaviours that correspond to beliefs

Ritual - Repeated access to Experience

Material - Material manifestation for participants

I know this is probably contradicting myself but while I agree with you that atheism is not a religion, I suspect I might well agree with some definitions of 'religion' that would include it as one.


EDIT: Actually, after having re-read your definition rather more carefully than I did before, wouldn't it actually include atheism? Isn't atheism a 'belief and opinion' "concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life"? It says nothing about beliefs in those things, just concerning them. That would include "they don't exist".

 

[ranma1/2]

It always amazes me when people use there own definition for things.
[PIE]Religion: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.[/PIE]
Not the absents there of.
Do you have any other words that you make up your own definitions for?

Even that one does not include religions without gods like shinto, buddhism and scientology.

 

[barney]

Any barbaric punishment is the Bible is against Christianity and is rejected by Christians.

Barabarism by what standards?

I think that if you went up to any non-sociopathic sane person and asked if willfully and deliberatly "destroying" a city, and wiping out newborns and little girls and boys because the occupants were deemed "sinners" is a act of barbarism, the answer would be Yes.

What about if God does it? Soddam & Gommorrah, New Orleans? Is it barbarism then? The act is the same, so would that make the creator "Barbaric".

 

[Pygoscelis]

This has to do with the principle that you formulated:"Morality is more than just that. It also involves aspects of compassion and empathy. When you obey orders to kill or do other nasty things, you are blocking out compassion and empathy and are thus blocking out part of your moral sense"

So the point is that morals comprise compassion as you mention but also comprise other than it therefore you do not take compassion as a judge and by it you measure what is moral and what is not. The examples I mentioned take you aout of the boundaries that you raised. Therefore the principle that if something is not compassionate is not moral. That's all.

Your english is overall excellent but you've lost me here. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Bare obedience is not morality. You need an aspect of compassion and empathy as well. Bare obedience is for robots not humans.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I personally disagree but I am willing to accept that on this occasion the two of us will always interpret this test differently. A stalemate of opinions if you will.

I don't think we disagree on the dynamics, only on whether they are acceptable. Do we not agree that Abraham killed Isaac solely from obedience to his God? We disagree on if that God exists or is the product of his troubled mind, and we disagree on if obedience to God is good simply because it is obedience to God, but do we not agree on the previous sentence?

However, can you truly say that without religion we would have no crimes? (I ask this because the information you yourself have provided within this thread has lead me logically to it)

Of course there would be crimes. There will be crimes with or without religion. Religion is not the only means to rationalize behaviour you'd otherwise be uncomfortable with (there are many others). And its not the only source of us/them dynamics or social programming - but it is the strongest of all of those things.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I hardly think there would be no crime, however the biggest problem i see is in power. Evil, greed, selfishness etc... tends to be attracted to it. In religions that create powerbases you tend to see corruption , oppression and other horrible acts often done in the name of god or the religion. Same with politics. If we could only take every corrupt politian, religous lunatic, and lawyer and send them on a spaceship to repopulate another planet we might live ina better planet .

lol! Why must everybody hate lawyers so. Btw, guess what I do for a living?

 

[Sunnih]

It always amazes me when people use there own definition for things.
[PIE]Religion: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.[/PIE]
Not the absents there of.
Do you have any other words that you make up your own definitions for?

It is indeed amazing to see someone like you come up with their own deffinition and acuse the others of doing no more than what you yourself present.

 

[Sunnih]

lol! Why must everybody hate lawyers so. Btw, guess what I do for a living?

Lol. In that case you might be getting a free ticket to space right?

 

[aamirsaab]

I don't think we disagree on the dynamics, only on whether they are acceptable. Do we not agree that Abraham killed Isaac solely from obedience to his God? We disagree on if that God exists or is the product of his troubled mind, and we disagree on if obedience to God is good simply because it is obedience to God, but do we not agree on the previous sentence?

I disagreed with your comment about Abraham being a hitman due to the fact that we interpret the test differently. I also disagree that Abraham killed Isaac but this is a whole different topic and right now it's 10 am, I just woke up and I've ran out of coco pops. I may discuss this in a different thread however (one solely related to the Abraham and Isaac event)

Of course there would be crimes. There will be crimes with or without religion. Religion is not the only means to rationalize behaviour you'd otherwise be uncomfortable with (there are many others). And its not the only source of us/them dynamics or social programming - but it is the strongest of all of those things.

I will admit that religion CAN be the strongest - I say can because it is a matter of how strong that person's faith is. Note however this doesn't mean the extremely faithful will commit crimes - only the misguided will do that, with any of their systems of control. Also note that I gave an explanation towards me asking this question in a post before (See ranma 1/2's post before my last one)

I will end with this though: If religion truly asked us to against morals, why are there so many exceptions from the commandments? (e.g. it is not obligatory in Islam for the elderly and/or sick to fast) Surely, if religion taught us to go AGAINST morals, these particular groups of individuals would have no exemption?

p,s; your argument with Abraham and Isaac I take as fair with regards to morality and religion, however it is a topic in and of itself that would be wise to discuss first (to get the foundations sorted out).

 

[ranma1/2]

lol! Why must everybody hate lawyers so. Btw, guess what I do for a living?

Oh no lawuer hate, just corrupt lawyers.. If your not corrupt then ive no beef with you and you dont have to get on the ship with hairdressers and politicians..

 

[Muezzin]

Is all this lawyer-bashing really necessary?*

*says the law student

lol! Why must everybody hate lawyers so. Btw, guess what I do for a living?

I'm liking you more by the second. Let us go forth and sue people.

 

[Joe98]

......do they reject their holy book ????

Muslims hold the Koran as holy. Christians hold the Bible as only partially holy.

There is no comparison between the way the 2 feel about their books.

Christains accepot that Jesus rose from the dead and the central theme of Christs teachinh was "Love". All this is acceptec by Christians.

But those parts that talk about stoning and horrible things are barbaric and rejected by Christians.

Next time a Muslim discredits the bible by quoting horrible things remember that Christians have rejected those things.

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[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

But those parts that talk about stoning and horrible things are barbaric and rejected by Christians.
Next time a Muslim discredits the bible by quoting horrible things remember that Christians have rejected those things.

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is there any official declaration from Churches ? Pl. write more about ur claim that Christians reject those parts of Bible .

 

[Joe98]

Pl. write more about ur claim that Christians reject those parts of Bible .

Study the punishment for various crimes in western countries.

Study the punishment for not complying with church law.

Why does nobody comply with biblical punishments?????

Because those punishments are barbaric and every civilised person rejects them.

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