Are some Muslims afraid of debate?

[ss25]

czgibson, im not surprised in the least nor is it surprisin that you choose to only respond to that part of my post.

\/

 

[Joe98]

.....Christianity should not be judged by christians, rather by its teachings.

Great!

Islam should not be judged by the actions of Muslims.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

http://www.islamicboard.com/327504-post83.html

But a religion, movement, organization, etc...is only as good as its' members.

Does that mean a law prohibiting murder is flawed since human beings will inevitably commit muder? The answer is obviously no. How can a human being's violation of a law be taken as evidence of the law's deficiency?? In other words, just because people will steal does not mean there is a flaw in a law forbidding stealing.

Likewise, when people act against their religion (as the actions which are causing problems in the world are clearly against Islam) how on earth can that be taken as evidence that the religion is not good? It can't.

The reality of the matter is that the behaviour of the adherents of a religion can be used to judge the religion if and only if it can be objectively demonstrated that such behaviour has its roots in the religion itself.

Peace

 

[ss25]

what he said i totally agree..

 

[HeiGou]

heigou, you come across as very angry in your posts.

Actually I have had a very bad week on the Muslim front and am feeling quite upset. So you're not wrong. It is not because I am normally angry. It is just that with the Canadian (alleged) bombers and the insane response to the police raids the penny has dropped. Some of you are very dangerous people and most of the rest of you don't care.

islam is a perfect way of life given to humans to practise and as we are all aware humans are an imperfect species..

You do not see a contradiction between a perfect way of life and humans as an imperfect species? Is it better for Muslims to try and fail to be good Muslims than for kafirs not to try to be good Muslims at all? Would you therefore agree that the Muslim world is closer to the Islamic ideal that the West?

wat i am tryin to say is that since Muhammad SAW passed away - who was the perfect Muslim - you will only find Muslims practising Islam by his sunnah, Hadiths and the Quran in a less than perfect way. everything doesnt come in one day and to ask you for example to become the perfect dance or boxer (which cannot exist) in a day would be ridiculous yet the perfect art of boxing /dancing does exist.

I doubt that the perfect art of boxing or dancing does exist. There is always room for improvement. But I agree that since Muhammed, it seems that Muslims have not lived up to his claimed ideals. Which suggests they never will. Which also suggests that when you offer me the perfect Islamic system what you are really offering me is the less than perfect Muslim world. So you talk about how Islam is the solution and I see Pakistan does not have any answers. Britain on the other hand has a lot going for it. Which would I prefer to preserve? No question. Which would you?

 

[Syed Nizam]

I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.

Couldn't agree more than that dude!

The fact remains that the muslim community at large are easily instigated...:rollseyes

 

[Woodrow]

No one reads the Japanese papers more like. They were also punlished in Egypt months before the fuss. People might be oppressed in Egypt but it did not cause any fuss. I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.

I agree with you here.

My opinion is that there are people in this world who stand to profit over tensions in the world. It has happened in the past and will happen again in the future. Tensions, fear and war are often builders of wealth for those in the posistion to exploit them. Good tools for promoting personal agendas, very poor for people who have to be the pawns.

 

[j4763]

I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.

And who would you say are these "clever" people?

 

[Muezzin]

I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?

That seems to be the case. I don't agree with such behaviour from my fellow Muslims. If we wish to be perceived as peaceful human beings, we should act accordingly.

 

[ss25]

"

I doubt that the perfect art of boxing or dancing does exist. There is always room for improvement

. "

room for improvement to wat, certainly an improvement to sumthin perfect?

Some of you are very dangerous people and most of the rest of you don't care.

u mus kno alooooot of muslims to come up with that conclusion.. yes muslims have reacted to incidents in a bad way but they do not speak for all muslims. do u ever question the senseless and unjustified killing of muslims in iraq, palestine or is this non muslims ridding the wrld of muslims u hate and therefore see no rong in it?

You do not see a contradiction between a perfect way of life and humans as an imperfect species? Is it better for Muslims to try and fail to be good Muslims than for kafirs not to try to be good Muslims at all? Would you therefore agree that the Muslim world is closer to the Islamic ideal that the West?

i thought u mite say that... who said muslims are failing at bein muslims, jus because muslims are propagated by the media as bein "dangerous" (and yes the media has propagated islam in a very negative light - but thats another thread altogether-) Do u even know what bein muslim means or is about? i think its better to try and work for sumthing than nothin at all, thats where belief comes into it.

Which also suggests that when you offer me the perfect Islamic system what you are really offering me is the less than perfect Muslim world.

i am not offering u islam , God is. if u choose to live in the less than perfect western world thats a choice uve made.

it seems that Muslims have not lived up to his claimed ideals. Which suggests they never will.

elaborate? u choose to deduce that muslims are sooo unmuslim based on wat exactly... bombings in canada?

\/

 

[HeiGou]

u mus kno alooooot of muslims to come up with that conclusion.. yes muslims have reacted to incidents in a bad way but they do not speak for all muslims. do u ever question the senseless and unjustified killing of muslims in iraq, palestine or is this non muslims ridding the wrld of muslims u hate and therefore see no rong in it?

I do not think they speak for all Muslims. I even said so. But the official Muslim response from "community bodies" has been appalling.

Well yes I do. I have spent years protesting the killings in Palestine. But Iraq is mildly different and I do not think that is senseless. The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims. They treat them with respect and honor - a level of respect and honor that is rarely offered by Muslim countries in return. How much would it be to ask that the Hindus of Pakistan have one single Ghat returned to them so they can cremate a little old lady properly? Too much?

i thought u mite say that... who said muslims are failing at bein muslims, jus because muslims are propagated by the media as bein "dangerous" (and yes the media has propagated islam in a very negative light - but thats another thread altogether-) Do u even know what bein muslim means or is about? i think its better to try and work for sumthing than nothin at all, thats where belief comes into it.

You think the Muslims of Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia are good Muslims?

Elaborate? u choose to deduce that muslims are sooo unmuslim based on wat exactly... bombings in canada?

Actually it is based on what everyone here tells me - the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You think the Muslims of Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia are good Muslims?

Sweeping generalizations are inherently erroneous - so why are you asking for them? What do you want this judgement on - isolated reports of criminal activity in the media?! Spotlight fallacy again. Every two minutes a woman is raped in the US - does that mean we can say that Americans are rapists?

Should we go with your logic and say that anti-rape laws are ineffective and therefore we should abandon them?? Or perhaps we will be wiser and look beyond the childish oversimplifications and combat the complex and varied factors that contribute to such problems?

the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.

Except that when you say "look at Syria" and "look at Jordan" you don't mean go there and live amongst the people for a significant period of time to get to know what the avergae Muslim there is really like - no, you mean pick up a western newspaper and proceed with some fallacious generalizations about the inhabitants of an entire country!

I am afraid I reject this closeminded irrational view that we can condemn millions of people and denounce entire countries so easily - it is too reminiscent of the genocides which destroyed millions.

Muslims are not evil people, whether they live in the east or the west - get past your bigotry. There are problems in the Muslim world, but they have arisen because of some Muslims are not following the religion properly or have not been educated about the religion properly - by no stretch of one's imagination could that include all Muslims. Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.

The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims. They treat them with respect and honor - a level of respect and honor that is rarely offered by Muslim countries in return.

I can't believe it - are you actually saying that Non-muslims have never done any injustice to Muslims nor disrespected them ever?? Please tell me you're not so blind.

 

[HeiGou]

Sweeping generalizations are inherently erroneous - so why are you asking for them? What do you want this judgement on - isolated reports of criminal activity in the media?! Spotlight fallacy again. Every two minutes a woman is raped in the US - does that mean we can say that Americans are rapists?

It is not my place to judge whether Muslims are good Muslims or not. It is not for me to judge Muslims at all. But I keep getting told there is no Islamic state in the world, only one inhabited by bad Muslims. Why wouldn't I believe it? I agree there is a problem with sweeping generalisations but I am not asking for them, I am reporting them.

Should we go with your logic and say that anti-rape laws are ineffective and therefore we should abandon them?? Or perhaps we will be wiser and look beyond the childish oversimplifications and combat the complex and varied factors that contribute to such problems?

How does that follow from my logic? I am all for looking beyond childish over-simplifications. Where can I see a real Islamic country? One that reflects what Islam is really about? Pakistan? Dubai?

Except that when you say "look at Syria" and "look at Jordan" you don't mean go there and live amongst the people for a significant period of time to get to know what the avergae Muslim there is really like - no, you mean pick up a western newspaper and proceed with some fallacious generalizations about the inhabitants of an entire country!

Actually I read LI. I had assumed that some people here would think that some Muslim countries were pretty good. Saudi Arabia for instance, but I have been corrected on that. Saudi Arabia seems to be a particular biet noir in fact.

I am afraid I reject this closeminded irrational view that we can condemn millions of people and denounce entire countries so easily - it is too reminiscent of the genocides which destroyed millions.

Uh huh. Now that is such an extreme view it is too reminiscent of genocides that destroyed millions. I say that Jordan is not a good Islamic country and you claim that is the same as the Holocaust? Come on now, you're usually the voice of sense and reason on the Muslim side. Do you really mean that?

Muslims are not evil people, whether they live in the east or the west - get past your bigotry.

Some of them are but I have never suggest that most, much less all, are evil. Most of them, most of the ones I have met at any rate, are reasonable sorts of people. The insinuation I have said otherwise is, I think, unfair.

There are problems in the Muslim world, but they have arisen because of some Muslims are not following the religion properly or have not been educated about the religion properly

Which is all I said. And it is not merely some, it has to be quite a lot because their governments don't seem to get much more pious.

Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.

It is interesting that you associate non-Muslim with evil. Can you see how as a non-Muslim I might not make that assumption myself?

I can't believe it - are you actually saying that Non-muslims have never done any injustice to Muslims nor disrespected them ever?? Please tell me you're not so blind.

No that is not what I am saying and I do not know where you get that idea from either.

 

[Sarmad]

Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?

 

[Immunity]

Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?

They use people like you to validate murder.

 

[Sarmad]

They use people like you to validate murder.

islam comes from the devil? - is this what you are saying

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It is not my place to judge whether Muslims are good Muslims or not.

Then don't:

the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims.​

I take it you now recognize the fallacy in your previous post since you have changed your position.

But I keep getting told there is no Islamic state in the world, only one inhabited by bad Muslims.

No one said that there is an Islamic state inhabited by 'bad Muslims', there is simply no Islamic state. There are Muslim-majority countries which have some problems, but the Muslims are working hard to remove them and educate others about Islamic teachings. Change doesn't happen overnight - just because Muslims living in Muslim countries don't have a magic wand with which they can instantly transform their country into a fully functional Islamic state, does not make them 'bad Muslims' as you initially said.

How does that follow from my logic? I am all for looking beyond childish over-simplifications.

Then I take it you have retracted your initial comments that Islam cannot be the solution because some people are not practicing it properly.

Where can I see a real Islamic country? One that reflects what Islam is really about? Pakistan? Dubai?

There is not a single country in the world that is free of problems because human beings are not perfect. But that imperfection comes from us, not the laws themselves. Today there is no country that is fully implementing the political and legal directives of Islam, but like I said before, change doesn't happen overnight. I saw a Muslim convert was once asked if the problems in the Muslim world ever made him regret his decision to become a Muslim. He responded very appropriately saying that if one sees a sick person they try to help them, not run away from them. There are problems in Muslim countries but we should work to remove them, not denounce the entire population of a country as you did.

Actually I read LI.

Load-Islam? "The mission of our e-Islamic community is to help foster a better understanding of Islam." [*] Where does it say that we provide media coverage on whether there are "good" or "bad" Muslims in countries around the world?

Saudi Arabia for instance, but I have been corrected on that.

Like any country, it has its pros and cons, but the Muslims of Saudi Arabia are also struggling to improve their country.

I say that Jordan is not a good Islamic country and you claim that is the same as the Holocaust?

Except that is not what you said:

the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.​

So it seems here that you are clearly implying that Jordanian Muslims are 'bad Muslims'. Like any country, Jordan may have its problems, but that doesn't mean that all of its inhabitants are "not good" as you claimed.

Which is all I said. And it is not merely some, it has to be quite a lot because their governments don't seem to get much more pious.

As if the government is always an accurate representation of the people.

Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.

It is interesting that you associate non-Muslim with evil.

Sorry, that doesn't follow. I said we shouldn't denounce all inhabitants of Muslim countries as evil.

No that is not what I am saying and I do not know where you get that idea from either.

The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims.​

As if there is such a monolithic entity as 'the non-muslims'. Didn't I say sweeping generalizations were harmful?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?

Why do you assume there isn't? The Muslim scholars have unanimously denounced terrorism - just because that doesn't reach your television doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Sarmad]

Why do you assume there isn't? The Muslim scholars have unanimously denounced terrorism - just because that doesn't reach your television doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Not a just denouncement, i'm talking about the sort of jihad i see in afganistan and iraq, chechnya and kashmir, why aint suicide bombers bombing insurgents up, it just feels like that would not be a cause worth fighting for .

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Not a just denouncement, i'm talking about the sort of jihad i see in afganistan and iraq, chechnya and kashmir, why aint suicide bombers bombing insurgents up, it just feels like that would not be a cause worth fighting for .

Because violence is not the answer and suicide bombing is forbidden. Education is the proper answer.