atheist logic

[Pygoscelis]

Logic says that something must've come from somewhere, that everything that came to existence - whatever we see must've come to existence by someone - who doesn't need anyone to exist.

No. Logic doesn't say that. You say that. You make a lot of unsupported assumptions in doing so, and you contradict yourself when you make an exception for God.

To me it is innate to believe in a God.

And I think that is the key. It isn't logic or reason that leads you to believe. It is innate in you. It is your evolved sense of looking to a higher power. For most species that is parents and alpha or tribe, to humans it has been king and emperor, and God. There is good reason that we are born looking for an authority to obey and believe in without much doubt or question. In the wild it could mean the difference between surviving and not. So natural selection applied a strong pressure in favour of this innate belief that you have. Same for hypersensitivity to pattern recognition and agency detection. Mistaking the wind for a predator may embarass you, but mistaking a predator for the wind may make you lunch.

There are 3 possibilites:

1. It came from nothing.
2. Made itself.
3. From someone.

4. Made from natural process without a guiding mind.
5. Has always been.

1. and 2. is impossible. Cause from nothing, nothing comes.

And yet you make an exception for your God....

Shariah Proof:

Revelation from Allah. The Quran.

Stories and Legends and so-called "holy books" do not convince me. The Quran, The Bible, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the native american story of how the eagle got its wings, Aztec cave drawings of Quetzalcoatl, etc, are no more convincing to me than each other or than Homer's Odyssey, etc.

To assume beforehand that there is no God, just because you can't see Him with your eyes, is arrogance to me.

But I am not the one assuming. You are. You are relying on faith and remain steadfast by your beliefs.
That is the difference between scientific inquiry and religious dogma.

I am open to evidence and open to changing my mind. I recognize that a God COULD exist. So could a billion dollar inheritance for me from an unknown relative, a cloaked space alien in my living room, Russel's tea pot, or faeries. Just because such things COULD exist, does not mean I have any reason to believe that they DO exist. I would need evidence to convince me that these things are more than creations of our imagination, and the more fantastic the claim (and God is a pretty fantastic claim), the more evidence I would need. Stories and Legends, so called "holy books", some unexplained mysteries, and some unsupported and self contradicting claims (ie, that everything must have a cause - but not this one thing we call God), just are not enough.

Why don't you attempt to search for God?

Which one? There are billions of possible Gods. And why should I search for an all powerful being that wants to talk to me? I see no reason why such a being would have to be searched for. If it is there, and it is all powerful, it could effortlessly reveal itself to me, and it has chosen not to.

If you say you don't need to, then what will you do when you die and find out that God exists?

Be surprised, and say hello I suppose. If that God would then be upset and judge me for not believing in him without evidence, and without having made me believe..... I would have to judge him as an evil God.

But in asking me this question, you make me curious. What will YOU say when you die and meet Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Shiva, or another God that isn't Allah, and learn that Allah doesn't exist and you have spent your life worshiping the wrong God? You're pretty much in the same place as I am at that point right? I fear Allah the same amount that you fear Quetzalcoatl, and I consider them equally likely to exist.

 

[Serinity]

Be surprised, and say hello I suppose. If that God would then be upset and judge me for not believing in him without evidence, and without having made me believe..... I would have to judge him as an evil God.

But aren't you yourself setting yourself up for that? and God would never be unfair with you. Aren't you, yourself blameworthy, when you yourself refused to reason, think and search? you don't even care to read the Quran.

But you are also assuming about God, but you know, God is All-just, He put that 'justice feeling' inside you.

But in asking me this question, you make me curious. What will YOU say when you die and meet Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Shiva, or another God that isn't Allah, and learn that Allah doesn't exist and you have spent your life worshiping the wrong God? You're pretty much in the same place as I am at that point right?

I won't meet them, cuz I know they don't exist. Those false dieties are all man made. I came to believe in Allah, by looking around me. and the Quran speaks to you. It corrects you.

And I go with logic, Allah created us, so the correct religion should be in conformity with the sound mind. It has always gone like this

People believe in One God, and then add false gods /partners to Him. Every scripture, in its pure form preaches the Oneness of God.

Which one? There are billions of possible Gods. And why should I search for an all powerful being that wants to talk to me? I see no reason why such a being would have to be searched for. If it is there, and it is all powerful, it could effortlessly reveal itself to me, and it has chosen not to.

That is your assumption. Allah is always there, YOU do not try to call unto Him. There is only proof for 1 God. There is no proof or evidence for billion of Gods. It is mostly people that add false gods. we've seen no scriptures, and mostly those who preach polytheism is by the corruption of man.

Our natural preposition is the belief in One God.

I ask you to read the Quran, ask questions, and ask Allah / God. Falsehood shall perish before Truth. So why do you not read? The criteria for truth is that it should have no contradictions, should answer the basic questions, and should come with convincing arguements and reasoning.

Will you then not reason or think? Read the Quran, ask Allah. Do not idolize, or whatever. Just ask "God, guide me"

you want Allah to make you believe? But you know, YOU have to put in effort. Ask Allah and search for proof. you may not see evidence now, but read.

If you disbelieve, then read. If you still disbelieve, then continue reading.

Do not believe blindly, do not believe and then think.

Try to listen / watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hezcb2YRasM

 

[The-Deist]

No. Logic doesn't say that. You say that. You make a lot of unsupported assumptions in doing so, and you contradict yourself when you make an exception for God.



And I think that is the key. It isn't logic or reason that leads you to believe. It is innate in you. It is your evolved sense of looking to a higher power. For most species that is parents and alpha or tribe, to humans it has been king and emperor, and God. There is good reason that we are born looking for an authority to obey and believe in without much doubt or question. In the wild it could mean the difference between surviving and not. So natural selection applied a strong pressure in favour of this innate belief that you have. Same for hypersensitivity to pattern recognition and agency detection. Mistaking the wind for a predator may embarass you, but mistaking a predator for the wind may make you lunch.



4. Made from natural process without a guiding mind.
5. Has always been.



And yet you make an exception for your God....




Stories and Legends and so-called "holy books" do not convince me. The Quran, The Bible, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the native american story of how the eagle got its wings, Aztec cave drawings of Quetzalcoatl, etc, are no more convincing to me than each other or than Homer's Odyssey, etc.



But I am not the one assuming. You are. You are relying on faith and remain steadfast by your beliefs.
That is the difference between scientific inquiry and religious dogma.

I am open to evidence and open to changing my mind. I recognize that a God COULD exist. So could a billion dollar inheritance for me from an unknown relative, a cloaked space alien in my living room, Russel's tea pot, or faeries. Just because such things COULD exist, does not mean I have any reason to believe that they DO exist. I would need evidence to convince me that these things are more than creations of our imagination, and the more fantastic the claim (and God is a pretty fantastic claim), the more evidence I would need. Stories and Legends, so called "holy books", some unexplained mysteries, and some unsupported and self contradicting claims (ie, that everything must have a cause - but not this one thing we call God), just are not enough.



Which one? There are billions of possible Gods. And why should I search for an all powerful being that wants to talk to me? I see no reason why such a being would have to be searched for. If it is there, and it is all powerful, it could effortlessly reveal itself to me, and it has chosen not to.



Be surprised, and say hello I suppose. If that God would then be upset and judge me for not believing in him without evidence, and without having made me believe..... I would have to judge him as an evil God.

But in asking me this question, you make me curious. What will YOU say when you die and meet Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Shiva, or another God that isn't Allah, and learn that Allah doesn't exist and you have spent your life worshiping the wrong God? You're pretty much in the same place as I am at that point right? I fear Allah the same amount that you fear Quetzalcoatl, and I consider them equally likely to exist.

I agree, belief in God is not logic, it is a belief, usually acquired from tradition.

I am sure if I was not raised upon belief in God(s) , and someone came up to me saying there is one who rulers overs you. I would ask him many questions.

"Show him"

"Where is he"

"Is he arrogant to believe he has power over me"

If these questions are not answered, I would not see a reason to believe.

Shows that belief in God is not by logic, rather by heart.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But aren't you yourself setting yourself up for that?

No more than you are setting yourself up to be judged by Odin.

But you are also assuming about God, but you know, God is All-just, He put that 'justice feeling' inside you.

No, I don't know that. You believe that. I have no reason to accept your belief as truth. The Gods could be cruel and unjust for all I know. And I see no reason to believe that such beings exist at all.

I won't meet them, cuz I know they don't exist. Those false dieties are all man made.

You seem even more certain of that than I, the atheist, am. Do you appreciate the irony in that? And yet all that you accuse me of, assuming your God doesn't exist, not looking into your holy book, etc.... can be said even moreso of you in regard to these other Gods.

I came to believe in Allah, by looking around me. and the Quran speaks to you. It corrects you.

Christians say the same about the Bible. Greeks thought the same of Zeus. Hindus say the same about their religion. As does every other religious believer about their holy texts, etc.

Allah is always there, YOU do not try to call unto Him.

How do you know I haven't tried to call unto him?

There is only proof for 1 God. There is no proof or evidence for billion of Gods.

There is exactly as much proof for one God as there is for another, or another Group of them.

Our natural preposition is the belief in One God.

No it isn't. And even if it was, that isn't evidence that any one God exists, much less that it is yours. I explained in my last post how such an instinct came about in us by natural selection. It isn't unique to humans, and it makes sense for survival in the wild, to look up to a higher power, usually called "mommy" but that human intelligence has transformed into calling "God".

I ask you to read the Quran, ask questions, and ask Allah / God.

Why the Quran? Why not the Egyptian book of the Dead, the Vedas, or the Talmud? Why not converse with native americans about ancestor spirits and with shintos about their spirits? Do you realize how much time I would have to invest in reading all of these possible holy books and looking into all of these myths, in the vain possibility that one of them somewhere could contain some nugget of truth? Have you invested in all of this, or have you merely assumed that your particular God (Allah) it the only one worth considering?

Why should I not dismiss your God as quickly as you dismiss all of the others?

Falsehood shall perish before Truth. So why do you not read?

Why do you not read?

The criteria for truth is that it should have no contradictions, should answer the basic questions, and should come with convincing arguements and reasoning.

And you've done none of that with either your Quran or your posts here. This conversation started with a rather stark contradiction (that all that exists must have been created, and yet not this God being) that you still refuse to acknowledge. It may surprise you to learn that i actually have read much of the Quran (a number of years ago). I recall it was full of cryptic language, stories, some calls for kindness and generosity, and some calls for division and violence. It isn't the magical book of mind-changing that you claim it to be.

Will you then not reason or think? Read the Quran, ask Allah. Do not idolize, or whatever. Just ask "God, guide me"

Such presumption, such accusations and such hypocrisy in this statement. You don't know what I have and haven't done. You don't appear to be thinking very much yourself. You don't appear to be reading or considering that the Gods you see as false may be true, as you are demanding of me in regard to your own false God.

 

[Serinity]

but you've belief in natural selection? Isn't natural selection a belief? you talk as if it is conscious. to me that is just "substituting" god for natural selection.

 

[Pygoscelis]

but you've belief in natural selection? Isn't natural selection a belief? you talk as if it is conscious. to me that is just "substituting" god for natural selection.

Natural Selection is not conscious. I suggest you read up on it. A simple google should suffice. Or do you refuse to read as you accuse of me? Natural selection is nothing but what mutations and traits are more likely to survive and be passed to the next generation. There is no thinking or conscious guidance involved.

 

[The-Deist]

Natural Selection is not conscious. I suggest you read up on it. A simple google should suffice. Or do you refuse to read as you accuse of me? Natural selection is nothing but what mutations and traits are more likely to survive and be passed to the next generation. There is no thinking or conscious guidance involved.

I am not here to offend anyone, but I really feel like Muslims make everything they agree on natural.

 

[piXie]

Re: Athiest illogic.

And I think that is the key. It isn't logic or reason that leads you to believe. It is innate in you. It is your evolved sense of looking to a higher power.

What happened to your senses ? Was there a glitch in the evolutionary process somewhere

• You believe this perfection in the design of the world evolved and was randomly selected. But if someone tells you just one chair evolved perfectly over the years you think he was crazy.
• You are convinced you are an animal and then you speak of right and wrong as though you are a human.
• You believe an animal can evolve into a human being like a man can evolve into a God.
• You speak of an evolved sense of fairness and morality but you cannot even agree on what these terms are or what they mean.
• You believe in accountability but cannot explain how that is practically implemented.
• You believe you are fair but you equal the Quran to a story book and equal other gods with The One True God Allah.
• You cannot claim certainty for anything but seem convinced you are an animal with no guaranteed sense of accountability rather than a human who would one day stand before His Creator.
• You believe Thee Creator doesn't exist but the Creation somehow does.
• You condemn the laws in the Quran but you cannot bring a single solution for the problems humanity is suffering from today.
• You believe religions add to the problems in the world but you cannot differentiate between man made religions and the Quran - proven to be unchanged by man.
  

Peace,

 

[Serinity]

Natural Selection is not conscious. I suggest you read up on it. A simple google should suffice. Or do you refuse to read as you accuse of me? Natural selection is nothing but what mutations and traits are more likely to survive and be passed to the next generation. There is no thinking or conscious guidance involved.

I've read up on natural selection, and it doesn't sound convincing in the least. It is like trying to convince that a car came out of thin air to which you've no proof, randomly.

This Natural selection seems like an excuse to disbelieve in Allah. Quite frankly, it is quite a ridiculous belief.

You think unconscious guidance can bring about a human being that can think? Might as well believe a car came out of thin air, without anyone doing anything.

Natural selection is non sense. If you truly think about it, it is pure non sense.

Look around you, the Earth, the moon, the Sun, is set in a course. Who set it in that course? How does the Earth know how to move? How does the spider know how to make the web, to which the scientists today can't make?

If the Earth would move a bit away from the sun it'd be too cold, if a bit closer to the sun, it'd be too hot. If the Earth wasn't tilted a bit, we'd have no seasons.

To say this was made randomly is like saying a car was made randomly. Pure conjecture. But then when we say Allah made everything, you fall into doubt whether it is actually Allah. Continually in doubt eh? Then you equate false gods to Allah SWT.

False gods, you or some other made up. By equating false gods to the One True God, Allah. You confuse yourself further.

I don't need to go through thousands of book to reach Allah. Cause Alhamdulillah, Allah guided me. May Allah guide you, too. Ameen.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum, Peace to all,


All this talk of logic is missing a couple of points, it seems to me:

1) You have to start with certain assumptions. Then you logically deduce certain things from those assumptions. But the initial assumptions themselves are not the fruit of logic. Atheists are taking as an assumption that there is no Creator. Theists are taking as an assumption that there is. Working with these assumptions (and certain others, such as: the universe makes sense), both atheists and theists order their thought in logical ways.

It is a rather like the debate about Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries. Using Euclid's postulates (basic assumptions), you could then deduce things about the shape of space. For instance, it is flat. But if you discarded the fifth postulate, space became more interesting; it could be curved. When mathematicians considered Euclidean space, they were being very logical. So were those that considered non-Euclidean space. But because of a difference in their underlying assumptions, they came up with some startling differences in what could be deduced.

2) It is possible for a proposition to be true, but to not be able to logically prove it from within a system (see Godel's Incompleteness Theorem for more information). In other words, there are limits to what we can logically deduce.

Pygoscelis and CZ are arguing from the assumption that there is no Creator. This is their starting point. And they will look around for ways to support this belief (and it is a belief). (twinkle) Human beings are not so much rational creatures, as rationalizing creatures.

By their system of beliefs, we theists are, indeed, illogical. Because we do not follow their logic. (mildly) But for us theists, atheists seem illogical. Because they do not follow ours.

(mildly) We can debate till the cows come home, but we cannot convince one another. But we can respect one another. This section, "Comparative Religion" (which is due to be re-named... soon, I hope), is supposed to be about us trying to understand one another. Not about subtly (or not-so-subtly) insulting one another's intelligence or level of education.

Atheists have their logic. Let us respect that, though we disagree with their fundamental beliefs. But atheists also need to respect that theists are also rational and knowledgeable.

(mildly) I do not see that this thread is going anywhere constructive; it started with a lack or respect, and has woven in and out of respectful discussion since... I would suggest that it be closed. If an atheist wishes to express his or her beliefs so that we can better understand them, then I would suggest that a new thread could be started by him or her, with this intention.


May God, the Knowledgeable, the Wise, Help us to behave in ways that are Pleasing to Him.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings MuslimInshallah,

Thank you for making the most intelligent contribution to this discussion for some time.

Pygoscelis and CZ are arguing from the assumption that there is no Creator. This is their starting point. And they will look around for ways to support this belief (and it is a belief).

My starting point was my mother telling me about God after she'd taken me to church for the first time. I was aged about four, and I asked her (using four-year-old language) to show me the evidence. I've been waiting ever since.

I certainly don't assume there's no creator. I am open to changing my mind. Just show me some convincing evidence.

If an atheist wishes to express his or her beliefs so that we can better understand them, then I would suggest that a new thread could be started by him or her, with this intention.

I tried this earlier when I posted a list of reasons why I don't believe in God. I don't think anybody has even attempted to interrogate any of the items on that list.

Peace

 

[MuslimInshallah]

I tried this earlier when I posted a list of reasons why I don't believe in God. I don't think anybody has even attempted to interrogate any of the items on that list.

Peace

Greetings CZ,


I did see this list. However, I found it too brief. For instance, what do you mean by "the problem of evil"? Perhaps if you stated your idea more fully, it would be easier to explore? Or when talking of Occam's Razor, you could explain in more depth. (twinkle) I mean, it seems to me that accepting God as Creator "shaves away" a lot of complexity... but perhaps you see it differently?

If you did one post per point, then each point could be explored more fully, don't you think?

(smile) If you truly want to find God, I can suggest things you can do. (mildly) But I am not sure that this is really what you wish to do. (gently) Some atheists can be rather evangelical about their beliefs, and seem to need to prove theists to be fools in order to feel better about themselves, it sometimes seems to me. (pensively) But some atheists truly wish to find some meaning in life and are truly searching for God. If you are of the latter, then I am willing to listen to your points of view and try to answer in a way that could be useful to you. (mildly) But if you are of the first group, then please realize that we have only a limited time on this earth, and I would like to maximize my use of this precious resource.


May God, the Manifest, the Hidden, Guide us.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Hi MuslimInshallah,

For the sake of argument, consider for a moment that perhaps a God did create this universe and this planet. Now look at this universe and this planet. Notice that 99.99% of this universe is immediately deadly to life. Consider that much life on this planet can only survive by hunting and killing other animals, causing great pain. Consider how natural disasters, cancer in young children, etc are routine. Consider how some creatures can only reproduce by laying eggs INSIDE other creatures that then eat their victims from the inside. Consider all of this. Consider that this creator God is all powerful and could have created life any way that he wanted. Consider that he must have wanted all of these horrible things.

Now consider that he punishes people for not believing in him on little to no evidence, for eternity. Consider how he has not been clear enough to humanity to avoid hundreds of other competing false religions, all with believers who earnestly believe that they are right, and who for this reason come to hate and war with one another.

Now ask yourself: Is this a good and loving God, or is this a monster?

That is the problem of evil as I see it. It does not rule out a monstrous or ambivalent God. But it does rule out a kind God that holds human beings as important and loves them.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I've read up on natural selection, and it doesn't sound convincing in the least. It is like trying to convince that a car came out of thin air to which you've no proof, randomly.

I don't mean to offend you, but I don't think you have read up on it as you claim. If you had, you would not compare it to a car coming out of thin air, and you would not speak of random chance popping into existence of anything. Evolution requires changing of DNA (by mutation, lateral gene transfer or whatever else), replication, and natural selection, all of which are lacking in your magic car comparison.

Consider the modern dog. Look at a chihuahua and look at a great dane. Notice how very different they are from one another! Both come originally from feral wolves. Do you follow that far?

The feral wolves included some that were aggressive and some that were more tame and more able to co-exist with humans. They likely came to feed on human refuse, an those that didn't attack the humans were taken in by the humans and lived to breed and make babies. Those babies had the same DNA as their more tame parents. Of the dogs in the next generations, some had mutated traits (sometimes DNA copying makes an error and creates a new trait) that the humans liked more than others, so the humans intentionally bred those dogs together, and by this selective breeding, over many years, created the chihuahua and great dane that we see today.

That is selective breeding. You may call it "intelligent selection". Consider mutation and replication (breeding) with it, and you have the basics of DNA, with just one more step to be added; natural selection. Natural selection is when you take the intentional selective breeding out of it, and just let the animals (or plants) replicate on their own. The environment may be such that some traits lead some animals to breed more than others, and those who breed more and have more babies, pass those genes down.

Do that over a long enough time period, and you can have very drastic changes in the DNA and the creature. Once it gets to the point that the one line can no longer breed with the other, you have seen a new species come about by natural selection. Do that over an even longer time period and the whole myriad of life on earth came to be. That is the theory of evolution by natural selection.

It isn't that difficult to understand, if you make the effort. It may be difficult to wrap your mind around and seem ridiculous to you at first glance. But think it through. Show us that it doesn't work like that, and you could win yourself a Nobel Prize for your effort.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Salam,
This is the first time that I have ever posted on this forum. I am a Muslim but there are some points that need to be addressed. Even for those of us who aren't that into science we comprehend the magnitude of the advances that are happening all the time from quantum physics to organic chemistry to molecular biology. Plus be mature in analyzing the information I have put forth, make sure your answer appeals to logic and reasoning and not emotions. So I begin, the theory of evolution gets a bad rep because of the use "theory" it is dismissed as simply a "theory". However, what most people don't understand is that in the scientific community a theory is a fact. To refute the theory of evolution is equivalent to refuting the theory of gravity, theory of heliocentricism (earth goes around sun) or cellular theory (we are composed of cells). The theory of evolution has reached a point where it is considered a fact and absolutely cannot be disproven. This is the case and how should we accept this reality?
I have three specific examples that support evolution since as human beings it is easier for us to comprehend specific ideas as opposed to some ideological propositions that are put forth.
1) Fish have something called a laryngeal nerve that travels a short distance and is effective. However us mammals also have the same nerve but since we have necks it takes a very long path to travel a very short distance, therefore very inefficient. Scientists use this example to disprove intelligent design and that we share a same ancestor with fishes.
2) There is absolutely no reason as to why we should get goosebumps, it serves absolutely no purpose since we don't have a fur coat. Scientist will simply say that our non-human ancestors had a fur coat and the goosebumps are contractions that raises this coat of fur and creates insulation. This keeps heat trapped and therefore keeps the specimen warm.
3) This one is truly astounding, We have 46 chromosomes but our ape cousins have 48. If we share a same ancestor than there is a problem because you can't just lose a pair of chromosomes. So scientists hypothesized that one pair of our chromosomes used to be in fact 2 pairs. If they couldn't prove this than evolution would be an invalid theory. The published research shows that our 2nd pair of chromosomes used to be 2 pair but they fused together just like they hypothesized. In fact they calculated exactly where the fusion happened on the chromosome.
So those are points I wanted to mention. They are quite troubling for a sunni muslim who appeals to logic and rationality. Please before commenting just look up some of the points and judge for yourself with a critical eye if you think there may be any conflict of some sort. Also it is important that this kind of intellectual discourse takes place especially with all the research that is going on and some of the research fundamentally goes against all abrahamic faiths.
Jazakallah,

Why have none of you creationists who dismiss evolution as ridiculous addressed this excellent post? Maxmed has outlined 3 very convincing examples of evolution that I don't see how you could possibly explain away.

 

[Serinity]

One can take it another way, and see that linguistically, one always has to attribute a creator or that which is Ultimately responsible, which is the definition of Allah anyway. So they are simply calling Allah by the name "Chance" which isn't necessarily an inappropriate name either. It is worse to say that "Allah looks to Chance for answers" which is what many people do when they say "I can do this or I can do that, and if I do this then Allah will respond in such and such way, and if I do that, then Allah will respond in such and such way" because it is saying that you are the decider, who can go this way or that way, and that Chance is the determiner and that Allah waits and looks to Chance to give the answers of what happens. Rather, that Allah is the decider, who decides if one goes this way or that way, and there is no Chance but Allah.

Allah has completely unconditioned freedom of will, freedom of choice, being able to do anything at all freely and instantly and accomplishes it without resistance from anything as there is nothing to resist. The existence of kaffirs, disbelievers, and whatever else is all by the will of Allah who made it so, that doesn't mean it is good or good for them, Allah simply does whatever Allah wills, completely freely, thus what they call Chance or "this happened by Chance" is simply saying "this happened by Allah", for us, the two words are synonymous, Allah is the only Chance, Allah is the Free Will, Allah is the Randomness, the Chaos, the Determiner of what happens or does not happen, if it goes this way or that way, or how the dice rolls and where it stops, there is no power but Allah, the Ultimate in every case.

So if they say "Nature decides" then they are simply calling Allah by the name "Nature". If they say "this is because of how Reality made it", then they are calling Allah "Reality" (Al-Haqq).

So even the atheists know Allah, except by different names. Whatever they say is the Ultimate Power, the Ultimately Responsible, the Ultimate Determiner, be it called Chance, Luck, Randomness, Chaos, Nature, Science, or whatever name, if they are referring to "that which is necessarily the Ultimate, that which is Ultimately responsible, the First and Overall cause" that is Allah they are speaking of.

And they seem to call Allah by "Natural selection"

The Atheist: "The mutation happening because of natural selection"
The Theist "the mutation happened because Allah willed it"

 

[Serinity]

I don't mean to offend you, but I don't think you have read up on it as you claim. If you had, you would not compare it to a car coming out of thin air, and you would not speak of random chance popping into existence of anything. Evolution requires changing of DNA (by mutation, lateral gene transfer or whatever else), replication, and natural selection, all of which are lacking in your magic car comparison.

Consider the modern dog. Look at a chihuahua and look at a great dane. Notice how very different they are from one another! Both come originally from feral wolves. Do you follow that far?

The feral wolves included some that were aggressive and some that were more tame and more able to co-exist with humans. They likely came to feed on human refuse, an those that didn't attack the humans were taken in by the humans and lived to breed and make babies. Those babies had the same DNA as their more tame parents. Of the dogs in the next generations, some had mutated traits (sometimes DNA copying makes an error and creates a new trait) that the humans liked more than others, so the humans intentionally bred those dogs together, and by this selective breeding, over many years, created the chihuahua and great dane that we see today.

That is selective breeding. You may call it "intelligent selection". Consider mutation and replication (breeding) with it, and you have the basics of DNA, with just one more step to be added; natural selection. Natural selection is when you take the intentional selective breeding out of it, and just let the animals (or plants) replicate on their own. The environment may be such that some traits lead some animals to breed more than others, and those who breed more and have more babies, pass those genes down.

Do that over a long enough time period, and you can have very drastic changes in the DNA and the creature. Once it gets to the point that the one line can no longer breed with the other, you have seen a new species come about by natural selection. Do that over an even longer time period and the whole myriad of life on earth came to be. That is the theory of evolution by natural selection.

It isn't that difficult to understand, if you make the effort. It may be difficult to wrap your mind around and seem ridiculous to you at first glance. But think it through. Show us that it doesn't work like that, and you could win yourself a Nobel Prize for your effort.

you believe it is natural selection. I believe it is the will of Allah. Simples.

If Allah willed, today, if you wanted to breed a dog, and Allah willed it to not work, it wouldn't.

This world is "cause and effect" kinda.

And what you may percieve as an error in mutation, is not. You just don't see the whole picture, nor do I. I wouldn't call it a mistake whether the breeding benefited us or not. Cause I know that everything runs according to Allah's will.

This is where it cuts for me, you see everything by chance / natural selection, which per definition is same as chance. I do not.

you see it as guided by chance / natural selection, I say guided by Allah.

 

[Serinity]

Haha yeah, little do they know, in reality, it is the same thing. Allah created the ships that sail on the sea, but they stop short and say that such and such was the inventor and engineer. They get closer if they realize everything technological is part of Nature or the world or the universe, and that the Ultimate Reality is responsible for it. We know that if this bird or that bird is killed by a predator, and it ends up that some mutation occurs or a generational lineage is continued or stopped, they say "it is because of Nature and Chance" or "Luck", and we say it is because of Allah, that such a bird was there and such a bird was killed at such a moment, and from the beginning, that from the very first moment, that this or that happened because of an apparent chain of events, which even the scientists believe in Hard Determinism, so what they are saying Determined from the beginning, is being called Nature or Reality or "The Way Things Are", and we call it by the name Allah, who determined whatever they see, and whatever chain of causation they imagine or perceive, which leads them to eat what they eat, and do what they do and say what they say from the day they are born, dominoes so complex and intricate, if they go back even in their view of causation, they will have to conclude that there is an Ultimate Cause, and for us Ultimate Cause and Allah are synonymous.

Yeah, and like lets say, I was born with an extra finger, they will see that as an error in the DNA. We see it as Allah willed it.

If Allah made a baby cat or dog better than the last, they'll say it is because of a error in DNA. We say it is because Allah willed it..

Whether the mutation benefits or not, they'll say it is an error. A mutation to the is basically an error.

 

[Serinity]

Though we know Allah is all-aware, All-seeing, All-knowing, All-wise, etc. Because of what we see around..

The way things are composed, etc. shows that is only Allah that could create this. If you object, try to blindfoldedly build a car, without any knowledge of it, in 1 day.

And look at the "seed" emitted by the man into the black vortex, and how from a seed-drop (In shaa' Allah you know what I mean) Allah creates from a single seed, a human being. SubhanAllah.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Yes, that is true, though their notion of "error" is funny, as if they are the ones who decide what is an error or not?

DNA copies itself during cell division. Sometimes the copy that results at the end of the process differs from the original. These copying errors are called mutations. Simple as that.

Peace