Australian cleric in dress furore

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Yes the guy is still guilty if her rapes her but the women is an idiot as well. Dur.

Do not pretend that the Sheikh was trying to justify rape. He was simply making an observation and urging Muslim women to protect themselves by dressing modestly! He in no way said that rape was acceptable!
Very true. a complete idiot. But it isn't criminal idioticy. Rape is.
The Sheikh never justified rape. He just equated women to a piece of meat.
What an inspirer. :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
Have a nice weekend.
 
What!!!!!?!?!

That must be the sickest comparison I have ever seen.

Women should not have to worry about what to wear because hormone crazed men cannot control there sexual desires.

your being emotional now.

Tell me, most of the rape victims are niqabis/hijabis innit :?

You think a lady wearing hijab/niqab will hav the same influence on a sick-head compared to a woman wearing see thru clothes :offended:

srsly wat u think the point of hijab/niqab is besides to protect women from such crooks?? and not only rapists, but even your day2day perverts (which compromise the majority of society today)

sheesh

salams
 
and men shouldnt have to worry that if they go outside of their homes they will be confronted with sights of semi-naked women whose presence will make them 'uncomfortable' to say the least.

Salam, Exactly, no one wants to see that, it's a sin to see such things and it is a great fitnah for men to be exposed to such things because some men can not stop themselves from looking at such things.
 
^ infact most, not some... some of them aren't ashamed 2 go tellin the girls themselves disgustin stuff... and the rest keep talkin disgustin stuff about her behind her back.... and she thinks that's something 2b proud of +o(

i hear it fromt hem every day!!

they think we're condonin rape or nething... we don't, i think they know v well the punishment 4 rape is death or possibly crucifixion, we're basically tellin women 'y the heck put urself in harms way.... prevention better than cure.. cover urselves up and ull b safe from idiots words and actions'

faaaaar outttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
 
^ infact most, not some... some of them aren't ashamed 2 go tellin the girls themselves disgustin stuff... and the rest keep talkin disgustin stuff about her behind her back.... and she thinks that's something 2b proud of +o(

i hear it fromt hem every day!!

they think we're condonin rape or nething... we don't, i think they know v well the punishment 4 rape is death or possibly crucifixion, we're basically tellin women 'y the heck put urself in harms way.... prevention better than cure.. cover urselves up and ull b safe from idiots words and actions'

faaaaar outttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Salam, yes your absolutely right. The thing that people forget is that Islam FULLY STOPS evil and sin from happening in the first place. That is why women must cover themselves with hijab and men must lower their gaze. Alright so we'll say that a guy looks at a girl who is not covered and really likes the girl. He thinks to himself that he just wants to go out with her and just wants to hang out with her and go to the movies. It's all fun and games at first but, then the relationship starts to get serious and before you know it Zina occurs....and then imagine if the girl was pregnant... The thing I don't understand is that Islam is a peace religion that gets rid of all types of sin by making sure it doesn't happen in the first place. Here is another good example of this http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/dating.html
 
Waram

:sl:
The most important thing is we stick and live with the Islamic law because the true form of Islam is to practiced it in society.
QUOTE]

I agree 100%. If we can not even attempt any form of integration then why are we? But proper Hijab is specifically for enabling practising Islam among the general non-Muslim population, isn't it? If a Muslim man entered my home with a family member and saw myself out of veil, then I should expect him to lower his gaze.

I dont fully agree completely with what the Shiekh said, but when I picked up the same Brisbane Courier Mail this morning - and the whole thing was so sensationalised it quite scared me. Why would they wait for 3 days after Eid (since they referred to his Eid Khutbah/sermon) to attack his comments about women? Why no the next day? I believe they had nothing more to write about and thought they could sensationalise this story. Heck - its not even new! We've heard this story before - there was a debate about him saying the same stuff before.

Although I think women should dress modestly, the onus is not fully on them. Quran also states for the believing men to lower their gaze.
Peace

This whole issue is clearly not entirely only about what the Sheik said. I am not up on who is who in the Australian Muslim community, but Aussies tend to avoid all whose who type interactions. But the reality of the media having so very suddenly made this sort of commentary front page material, (and in that a plain clothes policeman tried to set me up to suppose he had stolen that exact paper, and then when I asserted only my own evidence in him, he would not believe that I had not accused him, and then he publically loudly connected an assertion that I accuse wrongly of theft, with my Hijab - the ridiculousness is not entirely apparent even in only that much information without knowing a few more whats of the immediate situation here), the reality is a rather obvious sudden turn in the media regard for Muslim Clerics.

However the simple fact that the Sheik has unreservedly apologised is formidable; and warranted that I have written him a letter of apology on behalf of the indigenous population, in that he was unnecessarily singled out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6090136.stm

Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali's comments, suggesting that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault, have caused a storm of protest.
Sydney's mosque association said the suspension would give the cleric time to consider the impact of his words.
Many people - including some Muslim leaders - have called for the cleric to be dismissed from office.

Actually his community were on the ABC news on Friday evening, the day of the newspaper reports, saying that they were not taking any action against Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali, and support him. While he is taking a self deserved vacation. The Sheik really and truly landed on his feet, with a self certainty that is seldom met among the non-indigenous population.

Waram
 
May Allah Swt Bless and Protect Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali.

People, instead of indulging in Backbiting, visiti this forum :

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=27550

There are people on there who know the Shaykh Personally.

You'll get a better idea of what is Really happening, rather than half the crap reported by the Media.
 
The Veil and the Bikini Schism

Yamin Zakaria

Just look at the contrast - recently the former foreign secretary, Jack Straw, demanded that Muslim women should remove the veil, whilst preaching freedom to them. In contrast, the Imam in Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal pointed out the consequences for society, when women dress provocatively. This is usually done intentionally or unintentionally to entice the opposite sex and nobody can dispute that it agitates the raw male instinct.

Is this another example of clash of values? May be not, as Jack Straw and Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal, would concur in opposing complete nudity in public. Therefore, both agree, and recognise that a minimum standard of clothing needs to be enforced in society, for both genders. Clothing is one of the factors that differentiate the animals from human beings! What that minimum standard should be, is at the heart of the debate, the most crucial question. However, this is ignored, as the primary focus is on maximising freedom for individuals, and not what should be the minimum dress code for greater harmony for the society as a whole.

Did the Australian Imam pose an intellectual argument or did he make insulting remarks about scantly dressed women? For example, did he call them prostitutes or animals who roam naked in the jungle without any shame? If he had done so, then he would have ‘progressed’ to the levels of Salman Rushdie, or those who drew the derogatory cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in Denmark, or those closet racists who have now come out to vent their hate against the Muslims!

As expected, the Western media went into a state of frenzy after hearing the comments of the Australian Imam. What happened to free speech now? In short, there is no room for Muslims issuing genuine criticisms, no space for Muslims having the right to express their opinions challenging the status-quo. The media is becoming intolerant and fanatical as it claims about others in totalitarian societies. Increasingly it looks like the media of Julius Streicher in the 1930s Germany.

So, it is unacceptable when the Muslims pose a valid argument without the use of pejorative terms, and yet, when the West insults us in the crudest form, they expect us to tolerate it under free speech. Is it any surprise, the West is losing the intellectual battle against Al-Qaeda, as the London Daily Telegraph stated recently? You do not need to hire analysts, or conduct polls to establish such self-evident truths.

I was listening to the debate on the James O’Brian show on the radio. He was already incensed by the comments, and got even more enraged when non-Muslims emailed him, concurring with the views of the Australian Imam. Eventually, he suggested that the Imam should be handled physically as one cannot have a reasoned discussion with people who hold such views. Hence, Mr O’Brian is an intolerant neo-Julius-Streicher, and failing to recognise that he is the one advocating violence over dialogue and free speech. I am not sure why some of these presenters discuss subjects of this nature. I would have thought they are more qualified to debate popular culture.

Mr O’Brian claimed that the Imam’s comment exclusively blamed women for getting raped or if they suffer some type of sexual assault. I phoned in, and informed the operator that Mr James O’Brian got it completely wrong, and not for the first time. What the Imam was saying, only women who dress in a provocative manner ‘contribute’ towards these types of crimes and they have to share at least some responsibility. The operator would not let me through, as ‘he’ wanted to air some seedy story about men who ogle at women. I guess he was even less interested in free speech, and giving some voice to those voiceless people, who were being systematically demonised.

On the one hand, women are to have all the freedom (choice) and if I understand Mr Jack Straw that means: freedom to wear fewer clothes as possible. Yet, no sane person can deny the impact on the male sexual instinct by women exercising their freedom in this manner. Thus, is it unreasonable to expect women to bear some level of responsibility, so that they do not contribute towards these crimes? In the same way, would society not point fingers at those individuals who leave their money and assets unprotected, enticing the thieves? All responsible parents monitor their young daughters, as they are concerned about the predatory hot-blooded young males. The recent pictures released from Abu-Ghraib shows how nasty and hot-blooded these males are - even children are not safe from them.

The males too have a responsibility and just because they are sexually agitated, it does not give them the right to force themselves on women. Not every single male would behave according such principles, and restrain their carnal desires. Scantly dressed females should remember, especially before flirting, that for some men, if you excite them beyond a certain point they cannot retreat.

Naturally, when the opportunity arises, many men end up committing rape. This is confirmed by surveys that show a significant number of women in the US get date-raped. When men were asked if they would rape if the opportunity arises, the figures were even higher. Note, the word ‘opportunity’, meaning both sexes have the responsibility to ensure that such opportunities are not created. The constant promotion of ‘freedom’ creates selfish individuals, who give their carnal desires a greater priority, than to restrain it in order to show respect for others.

Our focus should not be to enhance freedom for both sexes, as one person’s freedom inevitably impinges on someone else’s freedom. Because, we do not live as individuals on our own islands, but collectively in a society. Rather, the focus should be to find the equilibrium between the two genders, where they can enjoy a stable relationship. Soaring divorce rates to rising single parent families are just some of the signs that clearly show we have not reached that equilibrium. This is the real debate behind the schism of the veil and the bikini.

I thought the West is yearning for a genuine debate with the Muslims. But, how can that be, when we see emotional and superficial responses coloured by their medieval heritage, from those who are bragging about the weight of their liberal values? Perhaps they expect Muslims to go on four limbs and resort to insulting also. Maybe only then Muslims will be given an EQUAL chance to express their viewpoint, under the flag of free speech!

For sure, any reasonable person knows the distinction between posing an intellectual challenge, and systematically insulting a community under the flag of free speech. At present, that seems ‘anybody’ except the very people that are shouting free speech. How ironic!

http://www.iiop.org/index3.php?recordID=184
 
May Allah Swt Bless and Protect Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali.

People, instead of indulging in Backbiting, visiti this forum :

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=27550

There are people on there who know the Shaykh Personally.

You'll get a better idea of what is Really happening, rather than half the crap reported by the Media.


That is a good point, however I am in that boat of needing to rely upon "half the crap reported by the Media" since MV site has made a very unwelcome intervention into the Indigenous Ummah in Australia and made a great mess of it by siding with the shaytan in our community. This is a point of fact, and I hold no intention in respect of slander. But I make no false accusation; and in fact the shaytan among the Muslim community here in Australia have confessed the situation to me well ahead of my having identified the nature of the facts to my certain knowledge. The Aborigines whom are in contact with Mosques and accepted in The Ummah were cut of from the source of decision making without our community in another connection with the larger Ummah of Islam. This is the contextual information within which to place Shayk Taj el-Din al-Hilali's worth.

It might seem like many are offering to protect him simply because they know what his debts are to their individual families etc. But that is not the case.

Actually he was in the mainstream television news media this morning, on a Sunday morning news and lifestyle show. They were reporting that this might be the first time he has equated Australian streets with a meat market (which the homeless Aborigines in Brisbane were laughing about with me) but that previously he has made many other distressing comments. In fact, especially in respect of September eleven; there was another comment made which the Indigenous Ummah never supported. So while I am my self not able to get back into Muslim Village to communicate about the letter I have sent the Sheik, I could report that the coverage of the situation there is not likely to bear any representation of the work that Indigenous Muslim are commiting in managing the Peace process.

What seems at one end to be war being generated in Australia, is at our end massive efforts to work for Peace. I have myself posted more or less frequently, that there are disputes within the indigenous Australian community around what the path to peace is. These very disputes seem to be according that there is war. But obviously only because of other persons taking sides with any specific aspect of the dispute. Unfortunately also it becomes in any dispute that the shaytan will take the side of any person whom is one the brink of altering the general opinion of what the real resolution is. But to put that more bluntly, usually that fact is taken as a blessed fortune; when in fact the nature of this dispute is only because the shaytan are not wanting to side with what they are receiving evidence of, because the side of Peace winning is the side of reduced profit margins.

What is happening among the shaytan, of all races and cultures eventually, but at this time very very frequently here in Australia, and more among the Aboriginal shaytan and the Muslim shaytan; is that they are finding themselves connecting in mind to a moment in such a long distant past that they are in extreme fear of; and that in that moment they finally accept that they have not been the 'doer' of their existance in all the moments since then. It is that a true shatyan is a person whose Soul long ago experienced certain evidence that they were causal to the fault with the Earth ever having commenced; and that has prevented them from accepting Allah; but in re-experiencing that moment they suddenly realise that it was inevitable and beyond their ablity to previously comprehend. The need Islam to accept their nature in the immediate aftermath of that experience. It can only occur when they have gathered to themself enough matter of emotions with which to reform an higher matter body that is true to their nature. They are called Ants in Aboriginal Australian Dreaming because their newer emotions body is shaped similarly to the exoskeleton of an Ant. Thereafter their eyes change colour, or a white pattern condenses in the blue eyed among. Their pupils enlargen, and they need clear direction to sustain that work they have been involving themselves in, especially when they express any aversion to it, which can occur because they usually realise also that they acheived the exact opposite of what they were trying to attain. They are truly only a bit more hopeful that Humans can manifest much faith in.

I am including this passage here not because it bears any need to relate it to Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali's manifestation; but quite the opposite, because it relates the whole of the banter about what he is reported to have preached, properly back into the major fact in the development of a very changing current Australian media and political climate. The whole manifestation of the media coverage which the Shayk has been given is truly only symptomatic of Muslims being very vulnerable at this time among the mainstream Australian shaytan managed institutions. Many institutions are being goverened by shaytan whom are not in Islam and that is the source of the entire problem, those shaytan whom are neither with any Muslim identity or Aboriginal identity, can manifest a 'wrong landed' external comprehension of what has happened to them. Such persons existing, and many of here, is why our policing and other institutions, as well as only the criminals, are aligning too often with nazism, and forcing that many innocent persons are branded as nazis. In fact the media reports have a couched threat in them directed openly at Shayk el-Din al-Hilali, that if he failed to manifest causing the Muslim community to support nazism in policing in Australia, that he would be wrongly branded by the nazis as among them.

I believe that the Shayk will be enabled to work to prevent such matter from occuring.

I am not accorded that I know him personally, but may be able to meet him at this weekend's Eid al-Fahr celebration in Brisbane, and have tried to invite persons among the local Aboriginal population, but here in Queensland most Indigenous Australians regard Muslims as an enemy of the Ummah. Of the five+ Aboriginal men I know whom might identify as Muslim: one got drunk after pronouncing Shahadah without believing he had done wrong, and is quite brain damaged in consequence, because the Imam had no idea as to the conditions in which he became motivated to become Muslim; the only one with a connection to the Islamic Ummah in Sydney is a plain faced liar who thinks it is a joke and has been outed as trouble even among the homeless; and the others are Mujahideen whom are not known by any Mosque, and chose to identify as Indigenous above identifying with an Arab bias in the Mosques.

The publicity about the Shayk is truly effecting a large change in public opinion since most Australians are now far more readily able to preceive that Muslims are being violated in this country. Almost all Australians would not have minded any comments about the public street being an open meat market in which any Muslim might be better off covered. And as is the Australian way, we will neither refute that the Shayk has a past history of some commentary which might be regarded as awkwardly embarrassing for the whole of the Muslim Ummah, but that did not receive the same level of publicity and around which he was sancitioned by the Ummah.

But having said this much, I believe that he could well be better without any further great publicity.

waram
 
The Veil and the Bikini Schism

Our focus should not be to enhance freedom for both sexes, as one person’s freedom inevitably impinges on someone else’s freedom. Because, we do not live as individuals on our own islands, but collectively in a society. Rather, the focus should be to find the equilibrium between the two genders, where they can enjoy a stable relationship. Soaring divorce rates to rising single parent families are just some of the signs that clearly show we have not reached that equilibrium. This is the real debate behind the schism of the veil and the bikini.

I thought the West is yearning for a genuine debate with the Muslims. But, how can that be, when we see emotional and superficial responses coloured by their medieval heritage, from those who are bragging about the weight of their liberal values? Perhaps they expect Muslims to go on four limbs and resort to insulting also. Maybe only then Muslims will be given an EQUAL chance to express their viewpoint, under the flag of free speech!

For sure, any reasonable person knows the distinction between posing an intellectual challenge, and systematically insulting a community under the flag of free speech. At present, that seems ‘anybody’ except the very people that are shouting free speech. How ironic!
http://www.iiop.org/index3.php?recordID=184

G'day TheRightPath,

I have quoted here only the final three paragraphs of what you report. Most of your post was very good.

However I disagree with your anaysis between the causation of the "schism between the veil and the bikini". I believe that it is rather in connection with shaytan having been promoting domestic violence among both the Muslim Ummah in Australia and the Indigenous Ummah. I have clear evidence of this if any of those with your perspective might care to enquire.

Next about medieval heritage. Don't we all have some? But that reality of disputing the worth of medieval heritage is a dispute with the worth of the action of Saladin in marrying his daughter to King Richard.

I my self can not find any but kafir shaytan (not even real shaytan but only the kafir who aspire to being like a real shaytan) whom "BRAG" about any weight in liberal attitudes.

Could I perhaps only remind you that we have all been subjected to vast quantities of policing work which is accusing us of making accusations only through our actualising any apology for our behaviour or mistaken ideas.
The only persons resorting to insulting are those not worth complaining about the contributions of, and it is in the nature of the Aboriginal Ummah to give semblence to ignoring such persons.

In the matter of free speech, I don't know what the fuss is about except that those whom own the means of Islamic web sites can manifest a far weightier control over what is being regarded as acceptable current thought stream within the Ummah

waram
 
nobody can dispute that it agitates the raw male instinct.

Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.

Please, that must be the most disgusting post I have ever read.
 
No where in the article did it say it is justified for men to rape women who dress immodestly. That extrpolation exists only in your own mind.

The section you qouted was only saying that men instinctivly react to semi-naked women, no where did it say that the instinct was to rape them!!

:grumbling
 
Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.

Please, that must be the most disgusting post I have ever read.

how about replyin 2my posts line by line.... might make u think more rationally over wat we're trying to say.

according to ur line of thoughts everything should be allowed, smoking, drugs using poisons.. u name it... coz, who cares about the harm it brings to the users n those around them, they're freee!!
 
That is a good point, however I am in that boat of needing to rely upon "half the crap reported by the Media" since MV site has made a very unwelcome intervention into the Indigenous Ummah in Australia and made a great mess of it by siding with the shaytan in our community.

HOLD ON, how did MV side with 'the shaytan in our community'?

Do you ever feel like you are crossing the line a little bit?
 
Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.

btw i just thought of another analogy


"Oh those poor thieves, all these people leaving their cars doors open and unlocked, and these victimized robbers are only falling prey to that raw theif instinct which tells them to steel cars left open".

therefore... we should promote ppl to leave their cars open to everyone :rollseyes

coz we shouldn't let thieves prohibit us from doin wat we want.... since u indicate that women should walk around semi naked coz we shouldnt consider the danger they're exposing themslevs to :offended:
 
I believe the people to blame are the women that make themselves objects for men. Men who cannot control themselves cuz probably they dont fear god majority of the time. Third television and the whole xxx rated enviroment person lives in. A person who follows any religion will try his best to avoid all evils. On the other hand people who dont fear god are evil who kill, rape, steal, and dont care for the punishment. In canada here the school i go to its cool to steal and whoever opposes or speaks out agiasnt it is tured out to be the bad person. O yeah majority of the people in my school are athesit who dont fear god at all. Or just dont believe in HELL! <<< Thats the problem with the world today!
 
i just hope my posts dont go unnoticed agen... i thought i only get ignored in comp religion area :cry:
 
ermm... NO!! why would a man go after a covered women. he wouldn't even look at her. (I don't meanthis as an isult fellow-muslims), because of the fact that she is covered, therefore she wouldn't stir any desires. i DON"T CARE what the psychologists and experts say.


Are u sure sister? Plz have a look on following story.


Monday, April 24, 2006

Trafficked from Pakistan, raped and jailed in Saudi Arabia

KARACHI: Sixteen-year-old Isma Mahmood was deported to Pakistan last month after serving six months in shackles and handcuffs in a prison in Saudi Arabia. Her crime: being raped by a Saudi man.

“It’s difficult for me to talk about what happened to me, from rape to prison and from prison to deportation,” Isma told AFP in the office of a rescue trust in Karachi where she sat with her sister Muna, 18, who was also deported.

Isma’s parents, originally from Multan, were trafficked to Saudi Arabia around 20 years ago. But in Isma’s case, being born in Saudi Arabia was no help when she was raped last year in Medina. “I was the victim, I was raped and molested but I was named as the accused, and the man who committed the crime was not touched,” she said.

“He first kidnapped me, dragged me into his car,” Isma said. “At first he asked me to sleep with him and offered good money. When I refused and tried to resist, he warned me of dire consequences and raped me in the car.” The unnamed man warned her she would be imprisoned if she went to the police, and said that the Saudi sponsor who brought her parents to the country through a Pakistani agent would have them all expelled. The sponsor too threatened Isma and Muna, she said, asking that the sponsor’s name not be revealed to spare her family any additional grief. “I and my sister went to the police expecting justice, but after a few hours of filing the report the police changed it,” Isma said. Under pressure from the Saudi sponsor, Isma’s parents asked her to withdraw her report. “My sister Muna tried to help me out but was also arrested and put in prison only because she spoke for me,” she said.

Once in jail, their nightmare began in earnest, Isma said. The women prisoners were mostly Pakistanis, Indonesians, Bangladeshis and Nigerians who came to Saudi Arabia through trafficking networks and were charged with prostitution, she said.

“When I used to protest against the ill treatment they beat me on my back,” Isma added. “We were chained all during this period. The only time jail officials removed the chain was during lunch or when anyone went to the bathroom or at prayer time,” she said. “Once a jail official offered me help and assured me I would be released if I agreed to sleep with him. There was a Pakistani woman who was over 40 years old and developed AIDS in prison, but she remained in chains before she was deported to Pakistan,” she added.

Isma and Muna are now in the care of the Ansar Burney Trust. “It’s pathetic that all this happened with Isma at the hands of a fellow Muslim,” the trust’s president Ansar Burney told AFP. Burney says many poor women and girls from South Asia are lured with promises of good money working as maids or nurses, but their Arab sponsors and Pakistan agents later force them into prostitution. AFP



Source:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\04\24\story_24-4-2006_pg7_11
 
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