Can the Quran stand the test?

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An exercise in understanding christianity:

Please fill in the blank.

I say that Christians claim, Marks's gospel was wttten by Mark or by his followers


You say that Christians claim, Mark's gospel was written by [.................]

-

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this is why i bumped the other thread, so i could just copy what i wrote before:

Regarding the authorship of Mark:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 199: “According to” Lindsey P. Pherigo in the introduction to the Gospel According to Mark:

Authorship. Tradition has given the author of this gospel the name Mark. From Early times he has been identified as John Mark, kinsman of Barnabas; and many scholars today accept this identification, largely on the basis that a gospel would not be attributed to remote a witness unless he was actually the author. However, if a gospel author named Mark was otherwise unknown, there would be strong tendency to identify him with any known early Christian of that name, even with one so little authority as John Mark.

Careful study of the book itself makes it difficult to believe that the author was John Mark of Jerusalem, because he seems to treat both Palestine and Palestinian Judaism as an outsider. His attitude towards the 12 and his reflection of the Pauline viewpoint…make it probable that he was a prominent member of the Gentile Christian community. His background must have been liberal Hellenistic Judaism rather than that of Jerusalem. The strong Semitic coloring of his writing can be attributed to sources he used rather than his own experience.

There is no reason to doubt much a tradition that the author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, bit it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all. In Gentile Christianity a great deal of reliance was placed on learning of Jesus from O(ld) T(estament) statements believed to be about him
.

we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark! thus when you or anyone else claim it is a fact or a truth, you're either wrong, unsure or deliberately misleading those that you claim it to.

unquote!

:w:
 

But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.


so you continue the argument that Paul,s saying (according to the Scriptures) refering to the 4 gospels?

again,where did you get that from?





One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.

be specific and show us verses,instead of giving links of long readings....
 
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YusufNoor said:
we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark!


Yes Christians agree with that comment



YusufNoor said:
that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!


And yes Christians agree with that comment.

And so it is we all agree together. The gospels were not written by Jesus. They were written about Jesus’s life.

Christians claim they were written by the witneses to Jesus's life or written by the followers of those witnesses.
-
 
LOL!! Imam - you really need to read the Bible!!

First read this to get the reality of who Paul [Saul] was:

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.
23After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him, 24but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

26When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him. 30When the brothers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.

Aeneas and Dorcas
32As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the saints in Lydda. 33There he found a man named Aeneas, a paralytic who had been bedridden for eight years. 34"Aeneas," Peter said to him, "Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and take care of your mat." Immediately Aeneas got up. 35All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.
36In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor. 37About that time she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room. 38Lydda was near Joppa; so when the disciples heard that Peter was in Lydda, they sent two men to him and urged him, "Please come at once!"

39Peter went with them, and when he arrived he was taken upstairs to the room. All the widows stood around him, crying and showing him the robes and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them.

40Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. 41He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive. 42This became known all over Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord. 43Peter stayed in Joppa for some time with a tanner named Simon.
 
LOL!! Imam - you really need to read the Bible!! First read this to get the reality of who Paul [Saul] was:
.




Follower ,Follower

The reality of Paul whatever it might be would not answer me question.....

what you claimed is certainly flawed , ask even the christians in the board.......

noone ever dare to claim that Paul knew the writers(s) of the gospels,or even ever read them..... for lots of reasons which bible scholars are aware of....

I could post the details of such issue ...... but the fact you dont even know the well established facts in the field of bible scholarship ,I doubt you would be qualified to have a positive two sided discussion in such issue....


while you advice me of the need to read the Bible

I would advice you to read and UNDERSTAND the bible before you post.
 
Originally Posted by YusufNoor

that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!

Exactly! And do you know why that is important? Because the good news is not in what Jesus said, it is in what Jesus did.
 
Exactly! And do you know why that is important? Because the good news is not in what Jesus said, it is in what Jesus did.

What did Jesus do other than allegedly forsake himself in a self-immolating moment.. It must all have been a part of his plan to abrogate his laws through his nemesis Saul, just to send the masses into further confusion?!
 
I am asking you for what "jesus' did in a nut shell, not what paul wrote!
 
Accordıng to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus came to save that which was lost and the means by which he accomplishd this was suffering, dying, and then being raise to life again.

The message of Peter, John, Stephen and other preachers of the church immediately after Pentecost (and before the conversion of Paul) was that, to those who believed, forgivesness of sins was available in Christ's name because of what Jesus had done.
 
Accordıng to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus came to save that which was lost and the means by which he accomplishd this was suffering, dying, and then being raise to life again.

The message of Peter, John, Stephen and other preachers of the church immediately after Pentecost (and before the conversion of Paul) was that, to those who believed, forgivesness of sins was available in Christ's name because of what Jesus had done.

How about the word according to Jesus not Tom, dick and larry?
and what do you reckon was 'lost'? It seems Jews have a more defined role in religion to play and in fact after the Tom dick and harry all was lost (i.e) the majority of old testament laws!

all the best
 
How about the word according to Jesus not Tom, dick and larry?
As I already said, the Gospel as understood by Christians is NOT found in what Jesus said, but in what Jesus did. You then asked me for what Jesus did, but to not quote Paul. I complied with your request.
 
As I already said, the Gospel as understood by Christians is NOT found in what Jesus said, but in what Jesus did. You then asked me for what Jesus did, but to not quote Paul. I complied with your request.

So I guess we are back to what did Jesus do aside from self-immolate and abrogate his own laws through his known nemesis?

All the best
 
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

to the topic of the thread:

"There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents. One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events? Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence? Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives? Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

we see an effort to persuade us the the Bible is the standard that we should compare the Qur'an against. the premise is ridiculous as what is referred to as "the Bible" fails the tests mentioned about. in the case of the New Testament, we see Christians scholars confirm this. in the case of the Torah, we have Jewish Scholars that supply then evidence.

as we are dealing with the polytheistic and pagan Christians, let's see what THEIR OWN SCHOLARS have to say [and btw, these are posts that i've put here in the past, i'm just copying and pasting]:

we see it implied that John Mark IS the author of the Gospel According to Mark.

Regarding the authorship of Mark:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 199: “According to” Lindsey P. Pherigo in the introduction to the Gospel According to Mark:


Authorship. Tradition has given the author of this gospel the name Mark. From Early times he has been identified as John Mark, kinsman of Barnabas; and many scholars today accept this identification, largely on the basis that a gospel would not be attributed to remote a witness unless he was actually the author. However, if a gospel author named Mark was otherwise unknown, there would be strong tendency to identify him with any known early Christian of that name, even with one so little authority as John Mark.

Careful study of the book itself makes it difficult to believe that the author was John Mark of Jerusalem, because he seems to treat both Palestine and Palestinian Judaism as an outsider. His attitude towards the 12 and his reflection of the Pauline viewpoint…make it probable that he was a prominent member of the Gentile Christian community. His background must have been liberal Hellenistic Judaism rather than that of Jerusalem. The strong Semitic coloring of his writing can be attributed to sources he used rather than his own experience.

There is no reason to doubt much a tradition that the author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, bit it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all. In Gentile Christianity a great deal of reliance was placed on learning of Jesus from O(ld) T(estament) statements believed to be about him.

endquote

we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark! thus when you or anyone else claim it is a fact or a truth, you're either wrong, unsure or deliberately misleading those that you claim it to.

and to reemphasize what was already posted in this thread:

i found this interesting commentary this morning, i'll share parts of it with you:

The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible (1971) page 664:

The Gospel According To Mark by Lindsey P. Pherigo

Introduction


Relation to Mathew And Luke. Literary analysis of the agreements and differences among the first 3 gospels has established that Mark was the earliest of the 3 and was used independently by both Matthew and Luke as their major source of information about the life of Jesus…The fact that the 2 later gospels have incorporated practically all of it in their accounts indicates that they intended to replace Mark rather than simply to supplement it…

Date and Occasion. The tradition that Mark put together his gospel after the death of Peter on the one hand and the manner of its use by Matthew on the other limit the date of the writing to the period from AD 64 to ca 75…

[this was MOST interesting and revealing!]

During the whole period in which this gospel could have been written, Christianity was in transition from it’s original home in the Semitic culture of Palestinian Judaism to the Gentile culture of the Roman Empire. The older Christianity held tenaciously to the traditional Jewish customs (such as circumcision and the food laws), but the newer (Gentile) version abandoned these entirely. More significantly, the older Christianity understood Jesus mainly under the Jewish concept of the Messiah, whereas the newer found more meaning in him as a divine being, the Son of God, Lord and Savior. The older view clung to the Semitic concept of religion as obedience to God’s Will, whereas the newer openly abandoned this as hopeless by man’s own effort and espoused a religion which redeemed man from his slavery to sin by and act of God’s Grace( the Christ event).

i checked to see if this was written by Muslims, but the cover says:

“Seven years of planning and research, the most up-to-date archaeological information, and the latest technological developments have been used in preparing this one-volume commentary.

Seventy scholars-Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish-have contributed fresh, new interpretations of the ageless truths of the Bible.
The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible is designed for use by laypersons, ministers, librarians, college and seminary professors and students – anyone who enjoys studying the Bible.”

speaking for myself, i CAN say that i DO enjoy using The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible! :happy:

furthermore, regarding the authorship of the Gospels themselves:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994: Howard Clarke Kee, in his introduction to the Gospel According to Matthew in the section titled: Authorship. From the 2nd Century down to the present, Christians have believed that the first gospel in the NT was also the first to be written and that the author was Matthew the tax collector, a disciple of Jesus. The source of this persistent belief can be traced back as far as circa A.D. 130, when Papias, a bishop in Hierapolis, a city in Asia Minor, wrote a work titled “Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord.” His writing, which is known only from fragments quoted by later Christian writers, reports that Matthew, the disciple, compiled the sayings of the Lord in Hebrew. Those that have quoted Papias seem to have accepted his statement without question as referring to the First gospel.

There are several difficulties with this assumption, however. (a) The gospel consists of a rather full account of Jesus’ public ministry, not merely a series of sayings. (b) Detailed analysis of Matthew shows that the author used Mark as one of his sources. (c) Mark and therefore Matthew, for which Mark was a source were written in Greek, not Hebrew.
In view of these difficulties, it is plausible to assume that Papias was referring, not to Matthew, as we know it, but perhaps to a now lost collection of sayings of Jesus.

If we do not accept Papias’ theory, then we must acknowledge that we have no evidence for the origin of Matthew and no assurance of the author’s name. The gospel itself makes no such claim; indeed all the gospels are anonymous. Later tradition has attached names for convenience, but we should recognize that authority of the writings rested in the power of the message, not in the personal authority of the author

so to summerize, ALL the Gospels were anonymous and the names were given mainly for convenience. Matthew MAY have been the author of "Q", that sounds reasonable however in light of the other information

what about the Gospel of John?

Regarding the alleged authorship of John:
From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994:
According to Massey H. Shepard, Jr., in his introduction to the Gospel According to John in the section titled:Author. The acceptance of the gospel in the NT canon in the late 2nd to early 3rd century was a seal of acceptance of its authorship by John son of Zebedee, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus. Though contested at that time, this official view held the day without serious challenge until recent times; and is still stoutly defended by many able scholars, Catholic and Protestant. Its strongest support is the testimony of Irenaeus, who claimed to have received the tradition firsthand, when a youth, from Polycarp.


The tradition would perhaps be stronger if it did not claim too much, for in addition to the gospel it places under John’s authorship the three letters and Revelation. Distinguished theologians of the ancient church, Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria and Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea were doubtful that the same hand produced both the gospel and Revelation. They were keen enough to note the differences in these writings both of literary style and of doctrinal viewpoint. They resorted thereafter to a 2-John hypothesis: (a) the apostle, who wrote the gospel and the letters; and (b) a “disciple of the Lord,” who composed Revelation. Support for this thesis was found in a book of Oracles of the Lord by Bishop Papias of Hierapolis, a contemporary of Ignatius and Polycarp, who distinguished 2 Johns: (a) an apostle, one of the 12; and (b) a disciple, who lived in his own times. Papias was conversant with all the “Johannine” writings, though he preferred oral to written traditions. But it is not clear from the surviving fragments of his work to what John he ascribed the books under that name. Many modern scholars reverse the judgment of Dionysius and Eusebius by ascribing Revelation to the apostle – as did Justin Martyr, - and the gospel and the letters to the “disciple.”

The gospel itself has an appendix has an appendix (ch. 21), which includes a colophon (vss. 24-25) ascribing the “witness” of the gospel to the unnamed “beloved disciple” who lay close to Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper (c.f 13:23-25; 20:2; 21:20-24). No reader of the gospel who was not familiar with the Synoptics and Acts would identify the “beloved disciple” with John, or with either of the “sons of Zebedee,” who are mentioned only in the appendix (21:2). But the church in Asia made this identification, as is clear not only from the testimony of Irenaeus but more especially from a letter of bishop Polycrates of Ephesus (ca. 190) preserved by Eusebius. In listing the “great luminaries” who have “fallen asleep” in Asia, Polycrates mentions first Philip the apostle, whom he confuses with Philip the evangelist of Acts, and his daughters and then John, “who leaned on the Lord’s breast, who was a priest, wearing the sacerdotal breastplate, both martyr and teacher. It is notable that he does call not John an apostle, as he does Philip!

The colophon (21:24-25) distinguishes 2 stages in the composition of the book: the “disciple” who bears witness, and “we” who attest to the truth of his testimony. This suggests a posthumous publication by disciples, or an editor, of the eyewitness disciple. Indications of editorial revision have often been noted---e.g. 2:21-22; 4:2 seem obvious, not to speak of the appendix itself. There are abrupt transitions both of the geography and of discourse. Chapter 6 would seem to make more sense if it preceded chapter 5.The dangling summons of 14:31 “Rise, let us go hense,”intrudes in the middle of a long discourse; and the logic of argument and exposition in chapters 7; 8; 10 is curious. There is no manuscript evidence to support any transpositions of the text; nor is there evidence that the gospel ever circulated without the appendix. Nonetheless editorial work seems plausible.

There is a growing consensus that the author – whether “disciple” or “witness” had access to good historical traditions stemming from Palestine, no less than the writers of the Synoptic gospels. His facts, as well as his interpretation must be taken seriously. He knew the geography of Palestine and the customs of the Jews better than Mark, and he may have had Judean associations more immediate than those of the Synoptic writers.

He was undoubtedly a Jew, one whose native tongue was the Aramaic spoken by Jesus. He thinks and writes in a Semitic idiom; and the sayings of Jesus he records, however different in style from those of the Synoptics, betray the same Semitic parallelism of structure. Yet he writes a clear and grammatical Greek. Efforts of some scholars to prove that the gospel was translated from Aramaic have not won general acceptance. His Hellenistic culture has perhaps been exaggerated, but it was not negligible. He was more than match for his theological opponents.

to summarize, it MIGHT be John OR ANOTHER John, but AT LEAST it was a Jew. that is, if there was only 1 author...

i never got around to the section on Luke, BUT seeing as we are going through this exercise, let me quote a short bit:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994 by William Baird:

Authorship: ...Although these data could explain the rise of Lukkan tradition [ie, that Luke the Physician is the author of not only Luke but Acts as well], the matter is much more complex. The "we sections" can be explained on other grounds, and inconsistency with Paul's letters raises the question whether Acts could have been written by any companion of his. Actually the traditional identification of the author is of no great importance. In no case can he be recognized an an eyewitness of events in the career of Jesus...

in summary:

in seven years of planning and research, using the most up-to-date archaeological information, and the latest technological developments in preparing this one-volume commentary, Seventy scholars-Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish-have contributed fresh, new interpretations of the ageless truths of the Bible.

all this research tells us that:

1) ALL the Gospels were anonymous and the names were given mainly for convenience

2) the actual...traditional identification of the author is of no great importance

3) and that The fact that the 2 later gospels have incorporated practically all of it in their accounts indicates that they intended to replace Mark rather than simply to supplement

4) in the late 2nd to early 3rd authorship of some was [still] contested at that time

5) the earliest Gospel author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, HOWEVER it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all!

and the reason for the transformation of the Gospel OF Jesus into MYTHS ABOUT him is that:

6) Christianity was in transition from it’s original home in the Semitic culture of Palestinian Judaism to the Gentile culture of the Roman Empire.

7)The older Christianity [read: first Christians] held tenaciously to the traditional Jewish customs (such as circumcision and the food laws),

8)but the newer [apostate] (Gentile) version abandoned these entirely.

9) More significantly, the older Christianity understood Jesus mainly under the Jewish concept of the Messiah,

10)whereas the newer found more meaning in him as a divine being, the Son of God, Lord and Savior.

so what happened is that:

11)The [Original Followers of Jesus/ nee Muslims] clung to the Semitic/Abrahamic concept of religion as obedience to the One True God’s Will,

12 whereas the newer [openly polytheistic pagan converts] openly abandoned this as hopeless by man’s own effort and espoused a [ BRAND NEW MUTATED] religion which redeemed man from his slavery to sin by and act of God’s Grace( the Christ event)


which is, not only what Islam has stated in the First place! Islam itself is a return to the Semitic/Abrahamic concept of religion as obedience to the One True God’s Will


Allahu Akbar!

:w:
 
LOL! So why did the Quran confirm the Gospel? It is the very one that Paul referenced in 67AD and the same one in use in 300AD and 600AD and today!!

Who wrote the Quran?!? Who compiled the verses after Mohamad died?

Gossamer Skye- You mock Jesus giving His life in payment for your sins?

You misunderstand Paul.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

John 10
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Jesus willingly sacrificed Himself for us.
 
'
Gossamer Skye- You mock Jesus giving His life in payment for your sins?

.

You need to do something about your outbursts of "LOL's" it silly, don't you think?

Jesus didn't give up his life, least of which for my sins.
my sins are my cross to bear!

Br. Yusuf has done an excellent job replying, I suggest you read before posing the same silly questions?

all the best
 
LOL!! I am a very happy person.

We know that Gossamer by her own account has said "Yes I am Grouchy". I am sorry I am so happy and you are so grouchy. Why are you?

Why do Muslims feel they must attack me personally?
 
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