Competitor for the Holy Qur'an

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Osama Bin Laden believes that 4,000 dead in New York City is "good", Muslims in Michigan believes freedom is "good".

Hitler killed millions jews ...nobody put blame on Jesus (p) or Christianity . So , don't blame Islam pl. for Laden.

BTW , if u have any proof that Laden really is responsible for 9/11 , then give it to FBI .

In their official website , they did not claim that Laden is the culprit becuase they don't have any solid proof.

 

[Basirah]

Salaam/peace;



Really ????

Palestines are suffered since decades for their Muslim identity. If they leave Islam & become Jews , then they will be surely benifitted in this world.

Still , i don't know how many Muslims in Palesntian left Islam. Can u give me the link for ur claim ?

In the west , if Chrisitians become Muslims ...they become minority & come under harrassment . Still they are accepting Islam . It's not easy to be a Muslim in the west ...but even anti-Muslim media are reporting that so many western men & women accepted Islam.


U can't compare this with few people leaving Islam in a country where Muslims are poor & oppressed.

Who says they are becoming Jews? They are becoming enlightened. They are putting faith in science and discovery.

As for woman, why are they equal to men? The Quran says, that the witness of a female is worth half of that of male (see - 2:282) Explain to me why you are not worth the same as a male witness! I would be insulted if I was female.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

What is good? We may have different views of good I am afraid.

Read Quran & u will understand what is good. If anybody failed to do so , dont blame religion .



O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably;

act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah;

surely Allah is Aware of what you do.


holy Quran , 5.8



Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice;

surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing.

[4.58]

& many many more

 

[Isambard]

Salaam/peace;



Really ????

Palestines are suffered since decades for their Muslim identity. If they leave Islam & become Jews , then they will be surely benifitted in this world.

Still , i don't know how many Muslims in Palesntian left Islam. Can u give me the link for ur claim ?

In the west , if Chrisitians become Muslims ...they become minority & come under harrassment . Still they are accepting Islam . It's not easy to be a Muslim in the west ...but even anti-Muslim media are reporting that so many western men & women accepted Islam.


U can't compare this with few people leaving Islam in a country where Muslims are poor & oppressed.

I dont see how the media is "anti-Muslim", it simply reports the naughty things muslims do. Besides, atheists are the most looked upon and mistrusted.

 

[Basirah]

Hitler killed millions jews ...nobody put blame on Jesus (p) or Christianity .

Hitler was a Christian and he should be blamed as one! The pope did little to save Jews as well unless they converted. Another example of religious intolerance. Europe has now been elightened to secularism.

Here is Hitler. Maybe all Christians are not like him, but he had his inspirations against a Jewish people who did nothing except practice there own religion:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.​

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

[wilberhum]

Believe whatever you want to believe. But I didn't lose nothing. I refuted all your arguments. Just because you keep repeating them after I refuted them doesn't mean I'm stuborn.

Oh short memory. You stated that you were proving how stuborn you were.

Of course you didn't loose anything, you just denied all relivent "con" information and only assepete "pro" information.

Using that stratagy, I can prove Bush is a great president. :-\

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Who says they are becoming Jews? They are becoming enlightened. They are putting faith in science and discovery.

LOL ...it's becoming too funny now. So , u believe Islam is aginst science ???? Where is the Quranice verse that says so ???

As for woman, why are they equal to men?

i guess ...type error ..u wanted to say not equal .

men & women have different responsiblities & duties . It's men's duties to go out & earn & spend for women . Normally women stay at home when men work for them . So , naturally men are more exposed to the outer world , get used to with financial transactions etc.

May be because of the practical reason , in some cases 2 women need to testify .... But not in all cases .

If a husband brings adultery charge against his wife , her solo testimony is enough / equal to him . In such a sensitive & imp issue , wife & husband's testimony carry equal value .


Islam is a practical religion . So , some commands may sound unpleasant , but God knows these are better for us .

Take the example of polygamy . God made it legal with condition ...human being made it almost illegal & made unethical relationships acceptable to most . Now see what's going on around us . Men can't have more than one wife & can have unlimited illegal wives.

Pl. read Quran & hopefully u will understand ......no east , no west ...Islam is the best

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I dont see how the media is "anti-Muslim",

it's late night .....i have to go . A short reply.


media always mention of religion if the alleged criminal is a Muslim . Media don't do the same when even a proven culprit is a non-Muslim.

V tech tragedy .....who is responsible ? A Jew or christian or Buddhist ??? WE don't know. Surely that student was not a Muslim . Otherwise , it's hard to believe that media missed a chance of bashing Islam.


In India , when riot takes place ( to my knowledge most riots take place in that country ) , media never put blame on Geeta or Veda ( hindus religious books ). Media like BBC normally say , angry mob , unruly people etc.

Jewish kids are always brutally murdered by Palestines & Palestines kids are always killed accidently .....see the difference ???

 

[Basirah]

LOL ...it's becoming too funny now. So , u believe Islam is aginst science ???? Where is the Quranice verse that says so ???

The Quran says, "Hata itha ataw aalawadi alnamli qalat namlatoon yya ayuhaalnnamlloo odkhulu massaakinakoom lah yahtimanakoomsulaymanoo wajunuduhu wahuom lah yashaauruuna, fataabasama dahikaan minn qawlihawakala rabee awziany ann ashkoora niaamataqa allatyanamta aalayah waalah walidaya waan aammalah salihaanntardahoo wadkhilny birahmatikah feey aaibadiklsalihyna"

Now you believe this is all scientific?

If a husband brings adultery charge against his wife , her solo testimony is enough / equal to him . In such a sensitive & imp issue , wife & husband's testimony carry equal value .

Really where in the Quran does it say this? Remember "We did not leave anything out of this book".

 

[جوري]

The Quran says, "Hata itha ataw aalawadi alnamli qalat namlatoon yya ayuhaalnnamlloo odkhulu massaakinakoom lah yahtimanakoomsulaymanoo wajunuduhu wahuom lah yashaauruuna, fataabasama dahikaan minn qawlihawakala rabee awziany ann ashkoora niaamataqa allatyanamta aalayah waalah walidaya waan aammalah salihaanntardahoo wadkhilny birahmatikah feey aaibadiklsalihyna"

Now you believe this is all scientific?

what do abilities possessed by prophet Solomon have to do with science or not? I am not following? this is a non sequitur, I believe the sister asked you for the verse to prove that Islam is against science.. try to be coherent!

 

[جوري]

I haven't been participating in this topic, because I find the parties involved puerile and have been adequately answered else where on various forums.. but some of the stuff huckstered here is really droll!

 

[جوري]

Ranny, the miracle of the Quran is felt in Muslims hearts.
They cant prove that it's divine...they just "know" it is because they "feel" it is.

The miracle of the Quran is understood by those who bother actually read it.. it is gratifying to the heart and the mind! Any person with half a brain would recognize the transcendency just by the period of time when such a book was produced when not 150 years ago doctors in Vienna couldn't make the connection between washing your hands and lowering maternal mortality... Try to put things in context, so you wouldn't appear so confused all the time!

Imagine that you read harry potter. That it had been read to you from birth, every day. that you were coerced into reciting the Adventures of Ron Weasley by society. Imagine that the whole of society was wrapped up in Potterism (even more than it is ), Imagine that there were special places to go and listen to Potter and that respected Adults accross the World read it and discussed it's wonders again and again endlessly. Imagine that Rowling wrote it over a millenia ago and it had absorbed millions of peoples lives.
Imagine that everyone you ever mixed with or met said it was the word of God.

what an asinine analogy.. I would further comment but what an infra dig it is to have even read it!

 

[جوري]

just another comment about the so-called Palestinians that are leaving Islam daily.. I guess 20,000 americans make up for that yearly.. and over the world it is the fastest growing religion. 1.86 billion Muslims and growing.. I guess we are not sucked into the nonextant vortex just yet, so I wouldn't hold my breath!

http://news.netscape.com/story/2007/01/08/angela-collins-truns-to-islam/

 

[Basirah]

what do abilities possessed by prophet Solomon have to do with science or not? I am not following? this is a non sequitur, I believe the sister asked you for the verse to prove that Islam is against science.. try to be coherent!

"Abilities"? Solomon could not have heard any of the ants speak. Why do you think that is? Do you think ants "speak" or use "sound"? Any ant that uses sound could not be understood by the human ear because ants do not converse by modulating sounds.

Don't claim such to be out of the realm of discussion.

 

[جوري]

"Abilities"? Solomon could not have heard any of the ants speak.

Indeed that is what a miracle is, an event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent, some common basic grounds would have to be established, before you quote me the text from the middle!

Why do you think that is? Do you think ants "speak" or use "sound"? Any ant that uses sound could not be understood by the human ear because ants do not converse by modulating sounds.

Again that is by definition what a miracle is, however, many apes are able to communicate with people modern day using sign language an article for your viewing pleasure, not such a terrible impossibility even under suspension of natural laws!
lots of creatures communicate, I am not sure where you are going with this, or how it relates?
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/language/chimpanzee.html

Don't claim such to be out of the realm of discussion.

it doesn't answer the question she posed you, thus it isn't the realm of discussion.. Don't divert the topic to suit your ends, if you can't handle the questions that flummox you!

 

[Woodrow]

What does this verse have to do with critical thinking? A few verses later you will read: "Ina aatadna lilkaafireenasalasilah waaglalan wasaaeeran", which if you understand arabic is basically another threat against the unbelievers.

Oh yes, if you do not believe god chokes you and chaines you and blazes you with flames!!! Very intimidating. I'm sorry, woodrow, I don't understand what the verse signifies. Please tell me if I complety missed something.

Just satisfying my own curiosity. I was finding how well you understood the Qur'an, so I would have more insight in what further questions I may decide to ask you.

 

[Basirah]

Indeed that is what a miracle is, an event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent, some common basic grounds would have to be established, before you quote me the text from the middle!

PurestAmbrosia, science does not recongnize these types of miracles. In my understanding of the verse, it shows either Mohammad's or a scribes belief in a myth that ants can speak. When you have to claim that it is a miracle, that is understandable, but miracles cannot be excluded from a critique by the scientific method.

 

[Basirah]

Just satisfying my own curiosity. I was finding how well you understood the Qur'an, so I would have more insight in what further questions I may decide to ask you.

Okay. I'm no scholar of course, because I don't believe it, but I have read, and was sent to a school to memmorize verses aimlessly (sp?). Either way, woodrow, did your conversion to Islam prevent you from listening to classical music?

 

[جوري]

PurestAmbrosia, science does not recongnize these types of miracles.

Sure it does-- may not be necessarily be of this exact nature, but 'miracles exist in science, people in coma whose cells are supposed to be arrested in G1 somehow break the cycle and are aroused from their state of unconsciousness-- cancers go into remission by means no one can explain. I had a patient with small cell ca who was given 3 months to live and here she is 2 years later after mets to the brain and all. If you are not a scientist, then kindly don't speak for them!

In my understanding of the verse, it shows either Mohammad's or a scribes belief in a myth that ants can speak.

indeed that is your understanding!

When you have to claim that it is a miracle, that is understandable, but miracles cannot be excluded from a critique by the scientific method.

the 'scientific method', can't prove or disprove such an event, it is simply beyond scientific capabilities-- until such a time when science conquers time travel, it will remain just that a miracle which many believe based on the results and recorded history of the time, some others prefer the linear approach, avert or mock it is all inconsequential. it is a simple as all that, and still leaves open the question of where in the Quran it states science is against religion?

 

[Isambard]

Mmm gonna try and take this thread back on topic....

Seeing as noone has read the Divine Comedy, (or any epics Im assuming) *grumpy face* It may be useless to compare poetics

Instead, perhaps its better to focus on the political nature of the Qur'an and reasoning.
Some contenders that are (nearly) identical to the Qur'an in regards to its communitarian politics are

The Republic - Plato
Discourses- Machievelli

These two books have similar outlines to the Qur'an with some noteable exceptions. The Republic of instance has a similar ethical system to the Qur'an except....it does away with God(s)! I wont spoil it for you, but it makes an excellent arguement for communitarianism and republicanism without invoking a hell or heaven, it actually argues that using such arguements make the whole idea weaker!

Then we have the Discourses. This is Machievelli's masterpiece (and oddly enough) lesser known piece. It too follows the same line of general outline as the two former, but instead of using the line of reasoning "because if you dont Ill torture you" of the Qur'an, Machievelli insteads goes into real world consequences and alternatives which makes his cases much stronger.

These two books also have had and still have a major following. Plato even had a religion behind his ideas. They also contain "prophecies" that are in more detail than those of the Qur'an and accurate.

Another piece I would like to add, but it more philosophical, is Nietzche's "Thus Spoke Zarathrusta"

Although it focuses on Nietzche's idea of the ubermench, it is also strangely prophetic in that it successfuly predicts later and current political environments and societal conditions. It also uses some complicated prose. Though its good, Id say the Qur'an is still superior in terms of poetry though. Still, this piece trumps the Qur'an in terms of philosophy in my opinion.

Now....has anyone read any of these to compare the two?