Confusing Religions

[Argamemnon]

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?

The source is the Qu'ran. I suggest reading it carefully from begin to end with patience and an open mind and heart. Then decide for yourself if it makes sense or not

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I can see why you think it was not in error, but it is important to understand just how egotistical the Roman See is, and then you will see in this statement more arrogance than condemnation. In saying "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." what I understand the Catholic church to have been saying is that they see themselves as instrumental in anyone's salvation who is saved. They are not saying, as many have inferred, that people such as the Greek Orthodox cannot be saved since they are not Catholic, they are saying that if they are saved it is because the Catholic church exists. The same would apply to protestants that they see as being outside of the one true church, yet still saved by the work of Christ and the continued presence of the Catholic church. The same would hold for anyone else as well.

But more importantly, do you see that as regards the Quranic verse you provided eariler:
Whether one accepts your interpretation of Catholic theology (wherein only Catholics are saved) or accepts my interpretation of Catholic theology (wheren in any and all who might be saved is up to God, but is possible only because of the Catholic church's existence), that in neither context would they say what the Quran claims would be said.

I am sorry Seeker but you're fighting a losing battle. It is impossible to deny that churches have taught that only Christians go to heaven for centuries. YOUR interpretation is a relatively new one, right alongside the new "limbo" rules. I am not stating my interpretation but rather the view than many CHristians hold, whether or not the Bible actually supports their claims. Here just try and type "only christians go to heaven in ANY search engine," ill give you a hand!


We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

I'm just scratching the tip of the iceberg here.

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

I could find more but meh... you see my point?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I am sorry Seeker but you're fighting a losing battle. It is impossible to deny that churches have taught that only Christians go to heaven for centuries.

I'm not saying that none have said that. If you read what I wrote I noted that indeed there are many who have said that. (I don't think that is the Roman Catholic position, but it is the position of many Christians.)

But I think you are missing something bigger. Just take a look at what yourself say the church says below:

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also [including] Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal

Now compare that statement with what the Qur'an says will be said:

Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

The Qur'an says that Christians will say that Jews can enter Paradise, but you say that is not what Christians actually say. You say that Christians say that Jews will not enter life eternal. So, which is right, you or the Qur'an?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm not saying that none have said that. If you read what I wrote I noted that indeed there are many who have said that. (I don't think that is the Roman Catholic position, but it is the position of many Christians.)

But I think you are missing something bigger. Just take a look at what yourself say the church says below:
Now compare that statement with what the Qur'an says will be said:

The Qur'an says that Christians will say that Jews can enter Paradise, but you say that is not what Christians actually say. You say that Christians say that Jews will not enter life eternal. So, which is right, you or the Qur'an?

I'm afraid you have misinterpreted the verse and are setting up a false dichotomy. It is saying both Jews and Christians think THEY themselves are the only people going to heaven. NOT that they both are going to heaven only.

As I have shown you, many many Christians do believe that only they go to heaven, THAT is the point. As simple as that. It is quite a common belief that God addresses here.

 

[Argamemnon]

edit: already answered above by AntiKarateKid..

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm afraid you have misinterpreted the verse and are setting up a false dichotomy. It is saying both Jews and Christians think THEY themselves are the only people going to heaven. NOT that they both are going to heaven only.

As I have shown you, many many Christians do believe that only they go to heaven, THAT is the point. As simple as that. It is quite a common belief that God addresses here.

OK. Yes, I was definitely reading it differently.

And, yes, as I have previously agreed it true that some Christians do think that NONE will be in heaven except for Christians, sometimes even just their own little clique of Christians. I hope you do recognize that such a belief is NOT a universal trait among Christians. But that doesn't change the fact that your clarification of that verse's meaning addresses everything I was challenging you with before. Thank-you for that clarification.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all, and thanks for all your replies.

This thread is starting to follow familiar arguments, we are each trying to prove which Holy Books are right. Each of us sincerely believes we are right.

But why would the same God, find it necessary to allow all these seemingly conflicting beliefs to flourish, over hundreds of years, and separate billions of people, often with wars?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you all, and thanks for all your replies.

This thread is starting to follow familiar arguments, we are each trying to prove which Holy Books are right. Each of us sincerely believes we are right.

But why would the same God, find it necessary to allow all these seemingly conflicting beliefs to flourish, over hundreds of years, and separate billions of people, often with wars?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be why human beings feel the need to kill each other to prove which religion of peace is the right one?

 

[maryam87]

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be why human beings feel the need to kill each other to prove which religion of peace is the right one?

I dont personally believe thats the case. People to start to kill eachother when one side opressors the other side and doesnt allow them to fully adhere to their own religious beliefs.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?

The source is the Qu'ran. I suggest reading it carefully from begin to end with patience and an open mind and heart. Then decide for yourself if it makes sense or not

Some people who believe the Bible is authoritative like to quote "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), as a way to prove their point. Somehow they miss the irony of quoting the Bible as if it were an accepted authority to prove the authority that is in question.

I find a similar sort of logic in what you suggest. I hear you suggesting that if one questions the validity of a statement in the Qur'an, that one should read the Qur'an to see if one might be pre-disposed to accepting it and then make the call.

Well, two points: (1) I have read the Qur'an. And (2) I still would like to know to what objective source does one turn when the Qur'an and the Bible disagree with one another?

 

[Argamemnon]

Some people who believe the Bible is authoritative like to quote "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), as a way to prove their point. Somehow they miss the irony of quoting the Bible as if it were an accepted authority to prove the authority that is in question.

I find a similar sort of logic in what you suggest. I hear you suggesting that if one questions the validity of a statement in the Qur'an, that one should read the Qur'an to see if one might be pre-disposed to accepting it and then make the call.

Well, two points: (1) I have read the Qur'an. And (2) I still would like to know to what objective source does one turn when the Qur'an and the Bible disagree with one another?

Well, we are talking about religion here. There is no other source than the Quran or Bible. We can only evaluate them with an open mind and heart and make up our own mind, there is no alternative. Religion is not science, but that doesn't mean that it's illogical or irrational by any means..

 

[Keltoi]

I dont personally believe thats the case. People to start to kill eachother when one side opressors the other side and doesnt allow them to fully adhere to their own religious beliefs.

So you're suggesting there has been no religious violence? Of course there has. Many times religion has been used by leaders to justify violence and war. While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity, the people that practice that faith will resort to unspeakable acts of violence in the name of their faith. That is the point I was making.

 

[Argamemnon]

So you're suggesting there has been no religious violence? Of course there has. Many times religion has been used by leaders to justify violence and war. While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity, the people that practice that faith will resort to unspeakable acts of violence in the name of their faith. That is the point I was making.

I agree with you. Even though I'm Turkish, I'm against the unnecessary wars the Ottoman Empire waged, except those when we were attacked. I'm also convinced that it's against Islamic teachings. Besides, the Ottoman Empire, like other empires, used religion as an excuse to expand the empire.

 

[Argamemnon]

While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity..

What about this verse (just trying to understand the meaning)?

"Do not spare them, put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys"

1 Samuel 15:13

 

[Grace Seeker]

What about this verse (just trying to understand the meaning)?

"Do not spare them, put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys"

1 Samuel 15:13

Even though that verse is from the Bible, that's not the Christian message. You will find that Jesus specifically re-interpreted many parts of the law with his "You have heard it said ___________, but I say unto you _________." motiff.


The standard for Christians then is Christ, who specifically addressed those who would follow him with these words: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

 

[August]

Well, we are talking about religion here. There is no other source than the Quran or Bible. We can only evaluate them with an open mind and heart and make up our own mind, there is no alternative. Religion is not science, but that doesn't mean that it's illogical or irrational by any means..

I agree with this, to a point. Sure, the ultimate proof of either text comes from reflection and prayer, but I think you can look at historical evidence and other writings for some proof. For instance, if you can prove historically that the Bible was not changed, and that it agreed with other historical records, you would have pretty strong evidence of its truthfulness. You are very correct that religion should not be irrational. Of course, rationality can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most people think that their religious beliefs are the most rational.

 

[alcurad]

a bit too simplistic perhaps, but here goes:
searching for the truth is nothing more than an excuse, an excuse for not believing in something, nothing wrong with that but no one will ever find "truth".
rather, religion is true as long as it serves a purpose. as for those whom it doesn't serve, they won't believe no matter how many "proofs" are presented.
as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

 

[Argamemnon]

Even though that verse is from the Bible, that's not the Christian message. You will find that Jesus specifically re-interpreted many parts of the law with his "You have heard it said ___________, but I say unto you _________." motiff.


The standard for Christians then is Christ, who specifically addressed those who would follow him with these words: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

I think all religions are essentially peaceful, but there are always people who twist the meanings.

BTW, killing donkeys is mentioned several times in the Bible, I believe. I hope I'm not offending anyone, but does anyone actually believe these to be the words of God?

 

[alcurad]

^that, or the text really does call for violence, how would you know either way?

 

[Argamemnon]

I agree with this, to a point. Sure, the ultimate proof of either text comes from reflection and prayer, but I think you can look at historical evidence and other writings for some proof. For instance, if you can prove historically that the Bible was not changed, and that it agreed with other historical records, you would have pretty strong evidence of its truthfulness. You are very correct that religion should not be irrational. Of course, rationality can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most people think that their religious beliefs are the most rational.

Yet, if religion could be proven to be truthful (leaving no doubt) would God reward us for believing in it? And would not everyone believe in the same religion in that case?