Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,
Good. So you agree that if a command or statement of the PRophet pbuh has been authentically transmitted to you, you must likewise accept it? The question should now be whether the hadith are authentic or not.
Let me say that if I recieved a personal letter from the Messenger, I would be more inclined to believe that, than beleiving something transmitted word to mouth.
If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.
So are you now saying that some knowledge has been lost? That divine wisdom for the Messenger which was meant to be passed to others, has not been passed to others?
Are you saying that since such and such could not hear the Messenger clearly, Allah has allowed such divine knowledge not to pass through? Basically if you accept the fact that staments may have not been transmitted, "lost in translation", because people may have not heard it completly then you are saying that your religion is incomplete. You are saying that divine knowledge has been blocked away from you, and that you may indeed not be practicing what you are meant to be practicing.
Just to get on the same page as you:
1.) You accept hadiths.
2.) You believe that some divine knowledge has been lost because people may have not heard it completly.
I don't understand why GOd would allow something to not pass through the next generations...
This idea itself, that messages not being transmitted because lack of hearing clearly, proves itself that not all hadiths have been protected and preserved in the matter which you claim.
Remember these are the companions of the Prophet pbuh we are talking about; they were more careful than anyone to narrate the correct statement.
So people say the companiosn of the Prophet had said.
Also consider when a statement is confirmed by multiple sources. I quoted for you a statement which says that Anas ibn Maalik used to write the Prophet's saws statements and get him to verify it. In light of all this, for someone to say for no good reason that the companions couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh properly is a very poor excuse.
But you do admit to the fact that if they did not hear the Messenger properly then such a message would not be transmitted.
But anwyays, multiple sources does not prove that something is correct.
Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No.
Obviously you are wrong becuase if educated Muslims did not question the authenticity of Sahih Haidth then there would be no suhc thing as "authenticity" and "fabrication" of Sahih Hadith. Maybe they do not question because people have labeled these hadiths have "authentic".... but you know what, you shouldn't label someoen as "uneducated" just becuase they choose to question the form of thought being passed by generation. To label someone "uneducated" because they are questioning the way you live, the way you practice, and what you believe only seems to show that you have insecurity in your belief.
The protection of the Prophet's message (pbuh) means that we are able to record and preserve the statements that have been authentically transmitted from him and seperate them from the statements that have been falsely attributed to him. The fact that we have been able to do that and reached a consensus amongst the scholars on that, is proof of their protection. If they hadn't been protected we would never have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet saws did and said.
Please give me the Quran verse that gaurantees their protection. You cannot declare something divinely protected or divine if it is not in the Quran! Please give me the QUran verse that gaurantees their protection.
Just because MAN has CLAIMED to have protected and preserved these hadiths does not mean that it is "proof" of divinity. Where is your Quran verse that says this??
And yes we would have have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet did and said because even today there are DIFFERENCE of opinions about what he did and said among the hadith acceptors... Obviously not all scholars are agreeing on everything. Obviously there is not this unanimous consenseus which you claim there is.
There are some people who will claim that some forgeries are from the Qur'an - does their claim contradict the Islamic belief in the Qur'an's divine protection? Of course not. Anyone can make up a verse and claim its from the Qur'an or make up a hadith and clima its from the Prophet pbuh - but in both cases the Muslim Ummah will unanimously reject such lies because our sources have been preserved. We can seperate the fabricated from the authentic, and that shows that the system works, not that it is faulty.
Again where is the Quran verse to back up all of this divine work of authentication?
Also I have to ask, what if there is a tribe in the desert of Africa whose ancestors came into contact with the Messenger and the Messenger commanded something of this tribe... how are you going to handle that? Are you going to tell these people that what they believe is false, though their honorable leaders have passed such a tradition down to their tribe for generations?
Do you have a belief that every hadith has been discovered? (though you acknowledge that there may have been some hadiths disregarded because lakc of hearing clearly)
Do you believe that the Messenger only spoke to his companions and gave his companions the knowledge and then it was his companions who had to spread it?
I ask this because say if the Messenger was alive today and told YOU something. How are we going to confirm what you have said is true? You aren't apart of his Sahaba, you are not his companion. Just some man that he may have came across by on the street. Must we rely on, and I mean no disrespect, your percieved good charachter?
What do all of these "sources" mean? Are these the only sources possible?
But back to the tribe question (and yes I would put money on teh fact that there is some tribe on this earth today, that have their own set of hadiths that renowned scholars have never even heard of, but yet this tribe has followed for generations)...
Who are these scholars to label what they have been practicing for generations as a "fabricated" hadith? Who has given them divine knowledge to label it fabricated? The Quran? or have they only been telling themselves that?
I don't recall ever hearing the Messenger only revealed his message to his companions and it was up to them to spread it. Didn't he talk to many people? Didn't he come into contact with many people? So who is who? How do we say that they are wrong?
But back to the main issue: Where your Quran verse that says that this system that MAN has created to "authenticate" hadiths, is perfect and incapable of error?
What makes you believe that these scholars have been correct? Does the Quran say that tehy are correct?
If you cannot prove that the Quran has called their system correct, there is no way you can justify calling it incapable of error and PROOF of protecting divine knowledge, unless you take in the opininon of man.
To me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith. I don't have any other way to describe it. It is the central thing surrounding my faith, therefore if something is not directly mentioned or stemmed from Quran then I wont accept it. If I believe in another religious book, then I could only believe in it becuase the Quran said that I should believe in it.
But they have both been preserved by human beings. Answer that. Why do you reject hadith and make statements like, "Your faith lies in the hands of men" when the Qur'an was preserved in the same way! What you have acknowledged above is that God can protect the scriptures through human beings.
If hadiths were preserved and protected the same way then why did anyone ever go about and question hadiths in the first place???? We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran.
And excuse me, but God can protect the scipture thoguh human beings, just like he can protect the scripture though animals if he likes. What we know is that God has given us the promise of protecting the Quran. It doesn't matter who he may have protected it through.
Just because the sunnah has been preserved by human beings in the form of ahadith does not mean that God has not protected it.
Ok, just give me the Quran verse that says that he has protected these hadiths, that these hadiths are truth, and that the system that has been used for years is incapable of error.
The question should be "Why do you believe this?". Do you believe this becuase of Quran? or becuase of what people have told you?
Again, to me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith, and it serves as a central for what I believe (besides God). If it's not in the Quran then I can't believe it. Where does the Quran speak of what you are saying?
Because it is completely mutawâtir. The Qur'an has been transmitted to us through an innumerable of chains of narration. There are many ahadith which are mutawâtir as well.
I believe that the Quran has been written down since its existance.
So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.
So are you saying that physician is incapable of error in medicine? A physicist is incapable error in pysics? A chemist incapable of of error in chemistry?
Every hadith which has been unanimously accepted by the scholars of hadith as authentic, is authentic, especially if the only ones who reject it are those who have no education in the sciences of hadith.
You keep saying "unanimously"..... I have to disagree. If that was the case there would be ONE school of thought among Muslims... Also let me remind you that we are not allowed to talk about sects on this board, but only if I could... your "unanimous" inquiry would be so totally out the window.
If you live in a house then you have already trusted your life to those who constructed and designed it so that it wouldn't collapse. The same is true for every technology, mechanism, medicine, etc. that you rely on daily.
But while I may give them my trust, I would never say that their work proves "divine" knowlege of construction, and that my house would never fall down. I believe that you on the other hand are willing to say that not one "authentic hadith" is wrong.
Not 'another man' - it is Anas ibn Maalik, the companion of the Prophet explicitly saying that he recorded the sayings of the Prophet pbuh and verified them with him.
And this is what poeple say Anas ibn Maalik did.
Interesting how you have nothing to say in response to this, except to reject it since it doesn't suit your desires.
Why are you getting personal with my faith and reducing everything down to what suits my desires? I don't like the taste of my own medicine.
It's actually funny that you say this considering the fact that I walked around for several hours today wishing to buy the bikinies that I saw when searching for something to wear to swim in, but choosing to instead follow what I believe would be a correct form of dress according to God's rules.
I accept it as the truth because the narration has been scrutinised by scholars of hadith and they have found it to be authentic - just as you would accept the diagnosis of a medical doctor on a patient if it was confirmed by virtually every medical doctor.
But we are know that a medical doctor is capable of errors.
If anything, I would like for you to realize the capability of error.
It is not too late to change your attitude: you can start learning about the hadith sciences and find out why the Muslim scholars unanimously accept them.
I keep reminding myself that we are forbidden to talk about sects on this board.
Is it? Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?
I meant to say that it's just not enough for poeple (but it's enough for me of course). I won't get into the performance of salat because that's a different discussion, and we haven't finished with the one that we are on. But like I said, the Quran is detailed and clear-- it says it, itself. It's up to you believe it or not.
No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.
What the heck? I don't deny the Quran. The Quran is already clear on the issue: it's clear, it's detailed, it explains. I provided the verses for you. I'm not going to denounce what the QUran has said just becuase YOU may not eleive it. And excuse me but I've already told you that I believe in everything the Quran says, even the ones about the Messenger.
Like I said before, the question now becomes whether the ahadith are authentic or not, and for you to be able to answer that you need to study the hadith sciences. What you are finding now is that you have no reason to reject hadith except due to ignorance, which it is your duty as a Muslim to eliminate,
I have plenty of reason to reject hadiths. Bottom line is I don't believe that they are authentic. I can care less about the science of them, becuase guess what? I have not read anything in the Quran that endorses the way that people prove a hadith is authentic! You on the other hand have taken the method and have seemed to have labeled it incapable of error. I believe in nothign that has error.
salaam
kay: 
il b waitin 4 d reps lol
