Discussion/Questions on Sikhism

[- Qatada -]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

Does any of the other religions ever say that it OK for someone in 40's to marry a child? Even there are laws in civilized societies today.

I don't think you understand the concept of a child. Looks like you've been ignoring it again. Did you see that picture before?

Is that a child? If so - how did she give birth? And did you read the fatwa earlier on:


from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.
​

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.
​

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.



Keep repeating your same claims and i'll keep pasting the same stuff.


And you know when you say that marrying a child isn't permitted in other religions, maybe you could give proof for that. If you don't, that means your claim doesn't hold much weight either, because what is forbidden should be clearly stated in the texts. So maybe you could give proof from your own scripture too?

No it's the other way. Relationship of soul to God is compared to that of wife and husband. It doesn't mean the husband is God.

Doesn't look like it:

• Thakur ek sabaaee Naar: There is one Lord ("Akaal Purakh"), and all are His brides (sggs 933).
• Mai kaamani meraa kant kartaar: I am the bride; the Creator is my Husband Lord (sggs 1128).
• http://www.gurbani.org/webart29.htm
  

If you believe in purification, how come you don't believe in avoiding all of the vices like lust? In fact, you even believe that these things exist even when you go to paradise.

When did i say lust was a sin? I think it was you wasn't it? I said if we have a desire, it is channelled in a way which will become permissible. I.e. marriage for ones sexual desire instead of commiting fornication.

So if God created one with desire in this world, what's so confusing about having a desire in the hereafter?

Guru Granth Sahib believes in achieving such a spiritual stage where you are forever in a bliss and you don't need any intoxicants... Of course, there are strict instructions to Amritdhari (baptized) Sikhs.

So intoxicants are alright in this world? I've seen some sikhs get drunk and they seem really attatched to this world, just check out bhangra videos. Now if that's a vice, and their wearing turbans - shall i start saying that their doing a good job of representing sikhs? I know i won't steep that low because people might follow a way of life but not be into it whole heartedly or in the correct way.

Anyway, those who are strict want to be with God in the next world right? How about the others - why do they want to mess about because that can lead them to not be with God?

 

[GurVah]

So intoxicants are alright in this world? I've seen some sikhs get drunk and they seem really attatched to this world, just check out bhangra videos.

if they drink, they are not sikhs.
sikhs do NOT drink.
by going against what Guru Sahib says, we have turned our back on Him
dont go looking for sikhs in bhangra videos
chances are...you wont find any.

 

[- Qatada -]

if they drink, they are not sikhs.
sikhs do NOT drink.
by going against what Guru Sahib says, we have turned our back on Him
dont go looking for sikhs in bhangra videos
chances are...you wont find any.

lol so all them guys wasn't sikhs? man too bad i'm not into bhangra vids really.. they just all over the place man. lol


peace bro.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

If they drink, they are not sikhs.
Sikhs do NOT drink. By going against what Guru Sahib says, we have turned our back on Him dont go looking for sikhs in bhangra videos
chances are...you wont find any.

Indeed!

It's a bit llike me going to youtube and typing Shia, you see them doing allsorts of VERY VERY disturbing things. But they are Muslims....

Gur Fateh

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

lol so all them guys wasn't sikhs? man too bad i'm not into bhangra vids really.. they just all over the place man. lol


peace bro.

How can they be Sikhs if they indulge in intoxicants.

 

[- Qatada -]

How can they be Sikhs if they indulge in intoxicants.

My bad, i seriosly never knew it was against sikhism to have intoxicants. Is there any mention of it in the guru granth sahib?


Thanks.

 

[cali dude]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

I don't think you understand the concept of a child. Looks like you've been ignoring it again. Did you see that picture before?

Well all I know is that what we believe, i.e. treating someone younger like a son or daughter, is superior.

Doesn't look like it:

• Thakur ek sabaaee Naar: There is one Lord ("Akaal Purakh"), and all are His brides (sggs 933).
• Mai kaamani meraa kant kartaar: I am the bride; the Creator is my Husband Lord (sggs 1128).
• http://www.gurbani.org/webart29.htm
  

That's exactly right. God is referred to as husband, not the husband as Lord.

When did i say lust was a sin? I think it was you wasn't it? I said if we have a desire, it is channelled in a way which will become permissible. I.e. marriage for ones sexual desire instead of commiting fornication.

So if God created one with desire in this world, what's so confusing about having a desire in the hereafter?

That's exactly right, you didn't say that lust was a sin. But having you could never purify your soul enough to be worthy of being one with God. Therefore, if you believe in purifying, you will need to get rid of lust and all other vices. We have been there before. Good and bad exist in this world. So don't ask why.

So intoxicants are alright in this world? I've seen some sikhs get drunk and they seem really attatched to this world, just check out bhangra videos. Now if that's a vice, and their wearing turbans - shall i start saying that their doing a good job of representing sikhs? I know i won't steep that low because people might follow a way of life but not be into it whole heartedly or in the correct way.

Anyway, those who are strict want to be with God in the next world right? How about the others - why do they want to mess about because that can lead them to not be with God?

Yes those who drink alcohol and smoke are definitely going against Sikhi. Why? I guess they don't understand or this has become a addiction for them.

 

[cali dude]

And what punishment would u think is necessary? The punishment should be as "civil" as teh crime committed. People like that dont deserve to get off so easy.

I don't determine the punishment but this person should be out of the society forever.

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

Well all I know is that what we believe, i.e. treating someone younger like a son or daughter, is superior.

Okay, thats your interpretation. And that's your right.

That's exactly right. God is referred to as husband, not the husband as Lord.

I don't really understand it because it says that:

• Mai kaamani meraa kant kartaar: I am the bride; the Creator is my Husband Lord (sggs 1128).

So if i were to see that, it would seem as if the authors saying that the bride is saying her creator is her husband. Which is hard to understand.

That's exactly right, you didn't say that lust was a sin. But having you could never purify your soul enough to be worthy of being one with God. Therefore, if you believe in purifying, you will need to get rid of lust and all other vices. We have been there before. Good and bad exist in this world. So don't ask why.

Lust isn't a sin in islaam, it only becomes sinful if it leads to forbidden actions. i.e. fornication.

For a person to purify themselves from the sins, they need to repent to Allaah sincerely with the intention of not doing that sin again, and to do good deeds. Allaah is the Most Merciful, the Forgiving and the acceptor of repentance to those who turn to Him.

So we don't class lust as the sin, but the forbidden actions performed are the sin. And to stop these forbidden actions - we are permitted to marry praise be to Allaah, so we don't fall into the vices.

Yes those who drink alcohol and smoke are definitely going against Sikhi. Why? I guess they don't understand or this has become a addiction for them.

Thanks for the clarification. It's been kool chatting with you, i think the whole discussion's over now. Unless you want to carry on.



Take care.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

My bad, i seriosly never knew it was against sikhism to have intoxicants. Is there any mention of it in the Guru Granth Sahib?


Thanks.

1 - Those who do not use intoxicants are true; they dwell in the Court of the Lord. - Guru Nanak Dev

2 - Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt. - Devotee Kabir


Many more but I'll have to search for them later on. :statisfie

 

[cali dude]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

I don't really understand it because it says that:

• Mai kaamani meraa kant kartaar: I am the bride; the Creator is my Husband Lord (sggs 1128).

So if i were to see that, it would seem as if the authors saying that the bride is saying her creator is her husband. Which is hard to understand.

What part is it that you find hard to believe? Creator refers to the creator of the universe(Lord) and it's saying that Lord is to my soul as husband to wife.

Lust isn't a sin in islaam, it only becomes sinful if it leads to forbidden actions. i.e. fornication.

For a person to purify themselves from the sins, they need to repent to Allaah sincerely with the intention of not doing that sin again, and to do good deeds. Allaah is the Most Merciful, the Forgiving and the acceptor of repentance to those who turn to Him.

So we don't class lust as the sin, but the forbidden actions performed are the sin. And to stop these forbidden actions - we are permitted to marry praise be to Allaah, so we don't fall into the vices.

Well us anything that disrupts concentration with God is a vice.

Alright have a good one

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma


Salaam/peace;

Well all I know is that what we believe, i.e. treating someone younger like a son or daughter, is superior.

--- i asked this question before , no one answered ....or was it in anther thread ? How many threads are there now on Sikhism ? hard to remember what question asked where :blind:



what's the minimum age for Sikh men & women to get married ? What's the maximum age gap between wife & husband regarding holy book ?


Is it prohibit by Sikhs religious law that 9+ can't get married even after her puberty ? Pl. show verses .


I wrote about a Sikh writer who had dozens affairs with women younger than his children. What Sikhism suggest about such cases ? Under no circumstances men can have more than one wife ?

Sikh widows can marry again ? If husband goes for adultery , wife can divorce him & the vice-versa ?

If husband has got life imprisonment , then wife can divorce him & re-marry ?



uhhh.....many questions...take ur time.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

I wrote about a Sikh writer who had dozens affairs with women younger than his children. What Sikhism suggest about such cases ? Under no circumstances men can have more than one wife ?

Sikh widows can marry again ? If husband goes for adultery , wife can divorce him & the vice-versa ?

If husband has got life imprisonment , then wife can divorce him & re-marry ?
.

1 - Nobody needs more than one wife or one husband. This is the equality in Sikhi - Unless the spouse dies, or divorces.

2 - Woman can divorce and does not need witnesses like they do in Islam, just as as quickly as a man can.

3 - Yes she can, but why would she want to? Maybe to you your vows mean zilch, but to a Sikh the vows are holy and the couple remain togther out of love and commitment, throught thick anf thin. Just like the Bible also says. - You may think marraige is just about happiness, well no, you take the rough with the smooth. And DON'T jump ship when it gets a but difficult!

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma


Salaam/peace;

1 - Nobody needs more than one wife or one husband.

---so , a Sikh man can have few dozens illegal wives but can't have a 2nd wife legally ?

This is the equality in Sikhi - Unless the spouse dies, or divorces.

---what's the rule for divorce ?

2 - Woman can divorce and does not need witnesses like they do in Islam, just as as quickly as a man can.

---if a Sikh woman utter the word divorce in her room without any witness , divorce will take place ?

3 - Yes she can, but why would she want to? Maybe to you your vows mean zilch, but to a Sikh the vows are holy and the couple remain togther out of love and commitment,

--what do u mean by vows ? If a husband has few doznes affairs by his own admission/ he is not feeling guilty about that ....he is writing a book about all his affairs ....where are the marriage vows here ?


to me , vows is not to cheat each other in married life . That is God's command.


If a wife is seriously sick , then a Muslim man can re-marry without divorcing his sick wife & will take care of her without depriving himself for the rest of his life .

What i can understand is in that case , a Sikh man must divorce his sick wife or live like a bachelor or commit adultery......is there any other option that i missed ?

 

[snakelegs]

nevermind - i found it!
where can i find "koi bole ram ram" in the SGGS? and who is the poet?
thanks.

 

[One Man Army]

Dhan Sri Guru Arjun dev jee:

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehla:
Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khudaa-i'.
Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allaah'. ||1||
He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.
He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||
Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|
Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.
Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||
Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.
Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||
Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,
knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

Salaam/peace;

1 - Nobody needs more than one wife or one husband.

---so , a Sikh man can have few dozens illegal wives but can't have a 2nd wife legally ?

Eh? it may be a muslim thing, but a Sikh man is satiable with JUST one wife and vice versa. You may think ALL men have afairs but that's a very stupid perception...:rollseyes

 

[- Qatada -]

Bro Avar, i don't wna start all this again - but your religion allows polygamy:


Thakur ek sabaaee Naar: There is one Lord ("Akaal Purakh"), and all are His brides (sggs 933).

cali dude said that lord means husband, so the guy has alot of wives.


If you say that that's not true - then maybe you could quote from your scripture where it limits it to one wife only?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

Salaam/peace;


If a wife is seriously sick , then a Muslim man can re-marry without divorcing his sick wife & will take care of her without depriving himself for the rest of his life .

They have a words for that Selfish and Insatiable....

Funny how it's all MAN MAN MAN It's all to do with the man. :rollseyes

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Spiritual wisdom v/s Religious dogma

They have a words for that Selfish and Insatiable....

Funny how it's all MAN MAN MAN It's all to do with the man. :rollseyes

It's a mans world.

Oh just to clarify, polygamy in Islam is mainly for support e.g looking after rather than lust.