Discussion/Questions on Sikhism

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=sri_guru_granth_sahib&action=index

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&pageno=1

These are interpretations to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee. not translations as it is impossible to translate the depths of Gurbani into the english language. The Depth of Gurbani requires alot of time and effort to even begin trying to understand the Guru Granth Sahib jee.

aanadh mool raam sabh dhaekhiaa gur sabadhee govidh gajiaa ||

I see the Lord, the Source of Bliss, everywhere; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord of the Universe is revealed.
 
oh yeh, could i also ask what you see as the most accurate translation of the Quran on the internet? as i have many differet versions..
 
Hey ultimate.


I think Sahih International is good, Muhsin Khan also. People also prefer Yusuf Ali, i think there all quite good, and Allaah knows best.

They can be accessed here:

http://quranicrealm.com
 
Muslim Woman said:
So , pl. write more about ur religion....how it's a practical religion , how it gives solutions to many problems ? Such as how a young man with seriously sick wife can live a happy life normally, after a war when many men died , what's the solutions for widows etc , etc.

Pl. give me the link for ur holiest book with English translation. thanks.
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See the problem we have here is the difference in the ways we think of religion. You might call it religion and there might be some other Sikhs who think of Sikhi as religion. But, I myself don't like to call Sikhi a religion. Instead, I think of Sikhi as pure spirituality. In a religion, a person is treated like a little kid. S/he is told you better do this or you will be ground in hell forever. But in spirituality, a person is encouraged to think and improve his/her spiritual wisdom. So, every time s/he has to make a decision, the decision is based upon her/his improved spiritual wisdom.

The Sikh scripture is spiritual guide for all people rather than hard and fast rules for Sikhs. So no Sikh scripture does not tell people how to live their personal lives.

So now practicality of Sikhi, apparently, there have been many incidents in Sikh History when tens of thousands of Sikhs were killed under Muslim rule and even in 1984 in India, they apparently didn't feel the need to have multiple wives. In fact, as I understand, there was a time when there were only handful Sikhs were left and they didn't feel the need to have multiple wives.

So what happens to widow? Does this widow have child(ren)? May be they take care of the widows? Plus a Sikh knows how to accept God's will as is and live the life "as is".

Even if you can justify to yourself (not to me) having multiple wives to marry widows, how do you justify marrying children? Why can't someone just adopt them and raise them instead of marrying them?
 
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Cali dude, looks like you're throwing the same claims all over again.


Have you seen my previous posts? Where's your proof that someone who has their menses or wet dreams is a child? And if there still a child - where's your proof for that? What do these physical changes actually represent? And how did that nine year old young woman give birth to a baby if she was only a child? I thought only women could give birth?
 
Fi_Sabilillah said:
Cali dude, looks like you're throwing the same claims all over again.


Have you seen my previous posts? Where's your proof that someone who has their menses or wet dreams is a child? And if there still a child - where's your proof for that? What do these physical changes actually represent? And how did that nine year old young woman give birth to a baby if she was only a child? I thought only women could give birth?
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First of all, someone who needs parents as a guidance and can't make decision on her own is a child. Just look around at nine-year-old kids. Do you think they are mentally ready to have kids and take care of them?

Plus, the Muslim woman here is using polygamy as a way to find home for widows but a nine-years old apparently isn't a widow. Then why does she need to be married to find a home? Why can't she be adopted?
 
cali dude said:
First of all, someone who needs parents as a guidance and can't make decision on her own is a child. Just look around at nine-year-old kids. Do you think they are mentally ready to have kids and take care of them?
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If the 9yr old isn't mentally ready for marriage, the marriage doesn't need to take place. :)



Plus, the Muslim woman here is using polygamy as a way to find home for widows but a nine-years old apparently isn't a widow. Then why does she need to be married to find a home? Why can't she be adopted?
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The marriage of a 9yr old young woman and the issue of polygamy are totally different subjects.


If you going to keep saying that she should be adopted, she is a young woman now and therefore ready to get married. And like said earlier - it is showing that she is fit for marriage. Now if that is the case - then if she is adopted by a stranger man, how do we know how he's going to treat her?

You say yourself that to find a true sikhi is rare, so if someone isn't a true sikhi and doesn't want to go down that path, or the person doesn't have good morals, then how are we to say that he will treat her as a daughter?



The issue of not performing polygamy is disturbing in a way though, where if many men are killed and there are alot of women. Yet these women stay unmarried without any protectors', and they feel sorrow because their husband has been killed. Yet still the people aren't prepared to get her married to someone else? Doesn't she have that right?

I'm talking about if there aren't enough men in the society at this time. How can that problem be overcome?
 
If someone who adopts a nine-year-old child and mistreat her, so can someone who marries. But if someone is decent enough to be a good father, why can't he adopt her instead of marrying her?

Why do we keep saying there weren't enough men left? Apparently, it didn't happen in rest of the world outside the Muslim world.
 
cali dude said:
If someone who adopts a nine-year-old child and mistreat her, so can someone who marries. But if someone is decent enough to be a good father, why can't he adopt her instead of marrying her?

Why do we keep saying there weren't enough men left? Apparently, it didn't happen in rest of the world outside the Muslim world.
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Are u sure about that? Dont people die in wars? From illnesses etc? Have u been through the entire world to know that?
 
Jazzy said:
Are u sure about that? Dont people die in wars? From illnesses etc? Have u been through the entire world to know that?
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Can you tell where, other than Islamic world, people have been in a situation where there weren't that many men left after the war that they had practice polygamy? Also, do you think that today polygamy is practiced where there is shortage of men or is it practiced for not a such great reason?
 
cali dude said:
If someone who adopts a nine-year-old child and mistreat her, so can someone who marries. But if someone is decent enough to be a good father, why can't he adopt her instead of marrying her?
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You still havn't defined what a 'child' who has menses/wet dreams is.

Nor have you explained how sikhism differentiates between someone who's old enough to get married or if someones your child.

You still havn't explained what the exception to the general rule of polygamy is.


And if someone is mature enough to get married, then why not get married instead of allowing the 'father, lookafter her' as she grows up even more into a mature woman?



Why do we keep saying there weren't enough men left? Apparently, it didn't happen in rest of the world outside the Muslim world.
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Who said it never happened?
 
Avar, maybe you could answer our questions? Remember yesterday you said you would bring in the answer to the questions? Can you bring the evidence now please?

http://www.islamicboard.com/679188-post418.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/679191-post419.html


And also the answers to the 3 questions above:


You still havn't defined what a 'child' who has menses/wet dreams is.

Nor have you explained how sikhism differentiates between someone who's old enough to get married or if someones your child.

You still havn't explained what the exception to the general rule of polygamy is.
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We've actually answered all your questions, and i see a common pattern where it's you guys running away from the questions.


The answer to your question is yes, if the person is physically capable of having intercourse. Then there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Fi_Sabilillah said:
Nah avar, we're waiting for an answer from you now. With proofs.
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Sikh Reht Maryada

THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS


Sikh Code of Conduct is called Sikh Rehat Maryada. It is a manual and code of discipline for the followers of Sikh faith for social, moral, religious, spiritual and general living


a. A Sikh man and woman should enter wedlock without giving thought to the prospective spouse's caste and descent.

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.

c. A Sikh's marriage should be solemnized by Anand marriage rites.

d. Child marriage is taboo for Sikhs.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.

f. Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.

g. Consulting horoscopes for determining which day or date is auspicious or otherwise for fixing the day of the marriage is a sacrilege. Any day that the parties find suitable by mutual consultation should be fixed.

h. Putting on floral or gilded face ornamentation, decorative headgear or red thread band round the wrist, worshipping of ancestors, dipping feet in milk mixed with water, cutting a berry or jandi (Prosopis spieigera) bushes, filling pitcher, ceremony of retirement in feigned displeasure, reciting couplets, performing havans (Sacrificial fire), installing vedi (a wooden canopy or pavilion under which Hindu marriages are performed), prostitutes' dances, drinking liquor, are all sacrileges.


i. The marriage party should have as small a number of people as the girl's people desire. The two sides should greet each other singing sacred hymns and finally by the Sikh greetings of Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

j. For marriage, there should be a congregational gathering in the holy presence of Guru Granth Sahib. There should be hymn-singing by ragis or by the whole congregation. Then the girl and the boy should he made to sit facing the Guru Granth Sahib. The girl should sit on the left side of the boy. After soliciting the congregation's permission, themaster of the marriage ceremony (who may be a man or a woman) should bid the boy and girl and their parents or guardians to stand and should offer the Ardas for the commencement of the Anand marriage ceremony.

The officiant should then apprise the boy and the girl of the duties and obligations of conjugal life according to the Guru's tenets.

He should initially give to the two an exposition of their common mutual obligations. He should tell them how to model the husband-wife relationship on the love between the individual soul and the Supreme Soul in the light of the contents of circumambulation (Lavan) hymns in the Suhi measure (rag) section (The bulk of the Guru Granth (the Sikh holy book ) is divided on the basis of the ragas (measures) of the Indian classical music. Suhi is one of the ragas featuring in the Guru Granth Sahib) of the Guru Granth Sahib.

He should explain to them the notion of the state of "a single soul in two bodies" to be achieved through love and make them see how they may attain union with the Immortal Being discharging duties and obligations of the householders' life. Both of them, they should be told, have to make their conjugal union a means to the fulfillment of the purpose of the journey of human existence; both have to lead clean and Guru-oriented lives through the instrumentality of their union.

He should then explain to the boy and girl individually their respective conjugal duties as husband and wife.

The bridegroom should be told that the girl's people having chosen him as the fittest match from among a whole lot, he should regard his wife as his better half, accord to unflinching love and share with her all that he has. In all situations, he should protect her person and honour, he should be completely loyal to her and he should show much respect and consideration for her parents and relations as for his own.


The girl should be told that she has been joined in matrimony to her man in the hallowed presence of the Guru Granth Sahib and the congregation. She should ever harbour for him deferential solicitude, regard him the lord master of her love and trust; she should remain firm in her loyalty to him and serve him in joy and sorrow and in every clime (native or foreign) and should show the same regard and consideration to his parents and relatives as she would, to her own parents and relatives.

The boy and girl should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib to betoken their acceptance of these instructions. Thereafter, the girl's father or the principal relation should make the girl grasp one end of the sash which the boy is wearing over his shoulders and the person in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib should recite the matrimonial circumambulation stanzas {Lavan of the fourth Guru in the Suhi musical measure section of the Guru Granth Sahib } (Pp. 773-4). After the conclusion of the recitation of each of the stanzas, the boy, followed by the girl holding the end of the sash, should go round the Guru Granth Sahib while the ragis or the congregation sing out the recited stanza.

The boy and girl, after every circumambulation, should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib in genuflexion, lowering their forehead to touch the ground and then stand up tolisten to the recitation of the next stanza.There being four matrimonial circumambulation stanzas in the concerned hymn, the proceeding will comprise four circumambulations with the incidental singing of the stanza.After the fourth circumabulation, the boy and girl should, after bowing before the Guru Granth Sahib, sit down at the appointed place and the Ragis or the person who has conducted the ceremony should recite the first five and the last stanza of the Anand Sahib. Thereafter, the Ardas should he offered to mark the conclusion of the Anand marriage ceremony and the sacred pudding, distributed'.

k. Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock bythe Anand Karaj ceremony.

l. No Sikh should accept a match for his/her son or daughter for monetary consideration.

m. If the girl's parents at any time or on any occasion visit their daughter's home and a meal is ready there, they should not hesitate to eat there. Abstaining from eating at the girl's home is a superstition. The Khalsa has been blessed with the boon of victuals and making others eat by the Guru and the Immortal Being. The girl's andboy's people should keep accepting each other's hospitality, because the Guru has joined them in relationship of equality (Prem Sumarag).

n. If a woman's husband has died, she may, if she so wishes, finding a match suitable for her, remarry. For a Sikh man whose wife has died, similar ordinance obtains.

o. The remarriage may be solemnized in the same manner as the Anand marriage.

p. Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.

q. A baptised ought to get his wife also baptised.
 
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Thanks, so from there we can see:

d. Child marriage is taboo for Sikhs.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.
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And similarly in islaam, the marriage is consumated when the spouses are ready for it, and that is when they pass puberty.
n. If a woman's husband has died, she may, if she so wishes, finding a match suitable for her, remarry. For a Sikh man whose wife has died, similar ordinance obtains.
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But:

p. Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.
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As i asked before, what is the exception to that rule? If there wasn't an exception then the term 'generally' wouldn't be used. Hence there is an exception for that rule, and that was my original question: What is the exception to that rule?


It also hasn't answered my questions:
You still havn't defined what a 'child' who has menses/wet dreams is.

Nor have you explained how sikhism differentiates between someone who's old enough to get married or if someones your child.

You still havn't explained what the exception to the general rule of polygamy is.
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I'll clarify the questions abit more:


You guys keep claiming that a young adult who has had their menses/wetdreams is still a child, yet science proves otherwise. Because that is a sign of their adulthood.

You also claim that a person can't get married to someone old enough to be their parent, yet there are many marriages within india where people get married to someone who for example may be 35 and his wife may be 17. Now this person is old enough to be her father, so what is the limit?


And thirdly, what is the exception to that rule? Remember that you take that book as your divine law, so the words need to be taken into consideration.
 
Fi_Sabilillah said:
Thanks, so from there we can see:




[/B]And similarly in islaam, the marriage is consumated when the spouses are ready for it, and that is when they pass puberty. But:




As i asked before, what is the exception to that rule? If there wasn't an exception then the term 'generally' wouldn't be used. Hence there is an exception for that rule, and that was my original question: What is the exception to that rule?


It also hasn't answered my questions:




I'll clarify the questions abit more:


You guys keep claiming that a young adult who has had their menses/wetdreams is still a child, yet science proves otherwise. Because that is a sign of their adulthood.

You also claim that a person can't get married to someone old enough to be their parent, yet there are many marriages within india where people get married to someone who for example may be 35 and his wife may be 17. Now this person is old enough to be her father, so what is the limit?


And thirdly, what is the exception to that rule? Remember that you take that book as your divine law, so the words need to be taken into consideration.
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Yes the man may have divorced his wife, so does that not mean she is still alive? Ut clears up any misunderstandings
 

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