Do Muslims believe the original Bible is the word of God?

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Maybe Adam 'alayhi salaam wasn't given a scripture, but he was sure given Signs from Allah to guide him and his family;

[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1] Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. (Q 2:37)

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Q 2:38)

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I do agree. He sure was guided. peace be upon him.

About the previous post;


Sorry, I got that from Ahmed Deedat's books. But you can do me a favor by checking in the Bible and see whether there is any utterance of Jesus telling his disciples to write down the Gospel whenever he acquires it. My point of view is that the disciples wrote their own accounts after Jesus' Ascension to the Heavens. If they have written it down during Jesus' lifetime, the scripture would have said so. However, I'd be happy if you'd prove otherwise.[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]


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Well the Bible we have now even in its original is not likely to be what Jesus peace be upon Truly preached.

But I was just wondering, because it seemed like you were certain thats all, I had never heard such a point made.

I personally don't have proof for either view points that was what interested me in your point.

If your looking at it from the Christian view point then your kinda right in the sense that you say "My point of view is that the disciples wrote their own accounts after Jesus' Ascension to the Heavens."

But the fact that you said Muslims believe was what made me think there was a statement in the Qu'ran or Sunnah to state such.
 
A great difficulty in discussing the validity of the Bible is that it is impossible to prove a negative. No matter how much a person may believe something is not true, it is impossible to prove anything is wrong. We can state our reasons why we believe the Bible was wrong, and even show valid evidence. However, none of that is proof.

A person can and will say, "Yes, there have been many attempts at changing the Bible and some appear to have been done. However, God(swt) has prevailed and the word remains true."

It is because of the fact we can not prove anything is false, the burdan of proof is on the person to prove, what they believe, is true. We can not nor need to prove their statement is false. They need to prove it is true.

Those who believe the Bible is true, need to prove that. Those of us who believe the Qur'an is tru need to prove that. It is up to the seeker to judge which offeres the verifiable facts.

Any arguement trying to prove either one is false, is a futile arguement. The arguement needs to be concentrated on offering proof a claim is true.

My rant for the day. The schools no longer teach the basics of logic for debating any claims. My pet peeve, anyone who attempts to prove something is false.
 
A great difficulty in discussing the validity of the Bible is that it is impossible to prove a negative. No matter how much a person may believe something is not true, it is impossible to prove anything is wrong. We can state our reasons why we believe the Bible was wrong, and even show valid evidence. However, none of that is proof.

A person can and will say, "Yes, there have been many attempts at changing the Bible and some appear to have been done. However, God(swt) has prevailed and the word remains true."

It is because of the fact we can not prove anything is false, the burden of proof is on the person to prove, what they believe, is true. We can not nor need to prove their statement is false. They need to prove it is true.

Those who believe the Bible is true, need to prove that. Those of us who believe the Qur'an is true need to prove that. It is up to the seeker to judge which offers the verifiable facts.

Any argument trying to prove either one is false, is a futile argument. The argument needs to be concentrated on offering proof a claim is true.

Interesting. Let's take a specific teaching from each and see how your statements work.

Bible: "Christ died for our sins."

Quran: Christ did not die, but God took him to heaven and someone else died in his place.

If I can show from non-biblical, historical sources that Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, would that not be evidence of the truth of the biblical account and also evidence of the falsity of what the Quran says to the contrary? If I prove the Bible's teaching to be true, does that not also prove the Quran is false?

How could you possibly prove, or even offer evidence of, the statement that someone else died instead of Jesus? That might be a belief, but not something you can verify historically from non-quranic sources. You won't find that backed up by Josephus or any known historians. There is not one scrap of evidence in the first five centuries of history, A.D. or C.E., that someone else died in Jesus' place. Not until the Quran comes along hundreds of years later does anyone even suggest such an idea. In fact, the many, many volumes written by ALL the early church fathers as well as historians like Josephus, all testify to His death on the Cross. You might see a few debating WHO Jesus was (God or just man, etc.), but you NEVER see anyone saying He did not die on the Cross.

Peace
 
Interesting. Let's take a specific teaching from each and see how your statements work.

Bible: "Christ died for our sins."

Quran: Christ did not die, but God took him to heaven and someone else died in his place.

If I can show from non-biblical, historical sources that Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, would that not be evidence of the truth of the biblical account and also evidence of the falsity of what the Quran says to the contrary? If I prove the Bible's teaching to be true, does that not also prove the Quran is false?

How could you possibly prove, or even offer evidence of, the statement that someone else died instead of Jesus? That might be a belief, but not something you can verify historically from non-quranic sources. You won't find that backed up by Josephus or any known historians. There is not one scrap of evidence in the first five centuries of history, A.D. or C.E., that someone else died in Jesus' place. Not until the Quran comes along hundreds of years later does anyone even suggest such an idea. In fact, the many, many volumes written by ALL the early church fathers as well as historians like Josephus, all testify to His death on the Cross. You might see a few debating WHO Jesus was (God or just man, etc.), but you NEVER see anyone saying He did not die on the Cross.

Peace

One step at a time.

To keep with the topic of the thread. We will begin simply with you offering verification as to why you believe the Bible of today is the Word of God(swt)
 
How could you possibly prove, or even offer evidence of, the statement that someone else died instead of Jesus? That might be a belief, but not something you can verify historically from non-quranic sources. You won't find that backed up by Josephus or any known historians. There is not one scrap of evidence in the first five centuries of history, A.D. or C.E., that someone else died in Jesus' place. Not until the Quran comes along hundreds of years later does anyone even suggest such an idea.
The Qur'an tells us that jesus(as) did not die on the cross, "but it was made to appear so" .. The ones who wanted Jesus(as) dead were deceived into believing he had really died, but the truth is that he did not die at all.

I suppose these historical accounts that you mention of, were written by these people who were deceived.. so we as muslims cannot take that as evidence as we know it is faulty. Seeing is always believing.. but this was a miracle of Allah swt. And if you find this hard to believe, you might as well reject the many miracles performed by Jesus(a.s) on similiar grounds.
 
muslim_friend said:
The Qur'an tells us that jesus(as) did not die on the cross, "but it was made to appear so"

That was very convenient, wasn't it!
 
Woodrow said:
why you believe the Bible of today is the Word of God(swt)

Phil12123 never said any such thing.

Every Christian knows the bible was written by men. By men who witnessed the events. And then wrote it down. After they saw it.

A bit like journalists who were on the spot.

Nobody witnessed the prophet (pbuh) talking to God.
 
Phil12123 never said any such thing.

Every Christian knows the bible was written by men. By men who witnessed the events. And then wrote it down. After they saw it.

A bit like journalists who were on the spot.

Nobody witnessed the prophet (pbuh) talking to God.

Quite true Joe, in reading back Phil never did say the Bible was the word of God(swt). So, in light of that Phil, let me rephrase what I said and just ask you to go with your actual statement.

If I can show from non-biblical, historical sources that Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, would that not be evidence of the truth of the biblical account and also evidence of the falsity of what the Quran says to the contrary? If I prove the Bible's teaching to be true, does that not also prove the Quran is false?

I would be interested in seeing what sources you have to show that I'sa(a.s.) did die on a Roman Cross. However, that would not falsify the Qur'an. We believe, it was made to appear that he did die on the cross. Therefore we would expect all physical evidence to show that he did die on a Roman Cross.

Any proof of the Bible being true, is just that; proof of the bible being true. It does not prove the Qur'an to be false.

An example, 2 men see the same car. One man says the car is green the other man says the car is red. The man who says the car is green, produces 16,000 eyewitnesses and 2,500 video's of the car all showing the car as green. That proves the man saw a green car, but it does not disprove that the car was red at the moment the other man saw it. Perhaps from some unknown atmosmpheric condition the wave lengths of the colors changed from where each man saw them. Possibly the car is actually yellow? Just the conditions at that moment altered what was seen at that moment.
 
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Phil12123 never said any such thing.

Every Christian knows the bible was written by men. By men who witnessed the events. And then wrote it down. After they saw it.

A bit like journalists who were on the spot.

Nobody witnessed the prophet (pbuh) talking to God.


But it seems that he does believe it is the word of G-d:

Someone once said, whenever you see God asking a question in His Word

that was http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...estions-chrisitians-all-welcome-answer-5.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/379957-post62.html

And:

Personally, I believe there are no contradictions whatsoever in the original autographs. It is Satan-inspired to claim contradictions in God's Word.

http://www.islamicboard.com/394531-post189.html

Anyhow, it think it will be better if our friend clarifies his position himself.

Woodrow
Just out of curiosity I still dont get this, wont be able to prove something wrong.

If someone says something is G-ds word, yet that something has a mistake in it then its proof that it isnt G-ds word right?
 
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Woodrow said:
Any proof of the Bible being true, is just that; proof of the bible being true. It does not prove the Qur'an to be false.


Every post you make is designed with that intention.

This forum is named "comparitave religion" and your posts never live up to that name. Not one post.

Ultimately Muslims NEED to prove their faith is the true faith because if they cannot prove it then maybe it is not the true faith.

Christians have no need to prove their faith is the true faith because truth does not need to be proved.

Lucky for me there is no god so I win ;D
 
But it seems that he does believe it is the word of G-d:



that was http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...estions-chrisitians-all-welcome-answer-5.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/379957-post62.html

And:



http://www.islamicboard.com/394531-post189.html

Anyhow, it think it will be better if our friend clarifies his position himself.

Woodrow
Just out of curiosity I still dont get this, wont be able to prove something wrong.

If someone says something is G-ds word, yet that something has a mistake in it then its proof that it isnt G-ds word right?

Woodrow
Just out of curiosity I still dont get this, wont be able to prove something wrong.

This is one reason religious arguements eventualy run into a never ending circle. Most people can not seem to grasp the concept that a false statement can not be proven false. The fact that a person can not present proof of a statement is true, can mean that the person lacks to ability to prove it is true. That is not proof that it is false. For this reason, the burdan of proof is for the person making a statement, to present proof that it is true.

No matter how far fetched a statement is, even a deliberate lie. No human can prove it is false. Somebody could say that you have a purple elephant in your refrigerator. It would be up to the person making that statement that you have one. You can not offer absolute proof you do not have a purple elephant in your refrigerator. The fact that nobody has seen it is not proof. That can simply mean the Elephant is crafty enough to escape detection.



If someone says something is G-ds word, yet that something has a mistake in it then its proof that it isnt G-ds word right?

This is the same problem. An attempt to prove a negative. We can not prove anything is a mistake. The burdan would be up to the person making the statement to prove he is right. If the person can not prove it is right, that still is not proof it is false. It just means the person can not prove it is true.

If a person can prove that an opposing statement is true, that would be strong evidence that the statement is false, but it still is not proof. That is the biggest difference between a falsehood and the truth. A person presenting a falsehood can not prove it is true
 
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Every post you make is designed with that intention.

This forum is named "comparitave religion" and your posts never live up to that name. Not one post.

Ultimately Muslims NEED to prove their faith is the true faith because if they cannot prove it then maybe it is not the true faith.

Christians have no need to prove their faith is the true faith because truth does not need to be proved.

Lucky for me there is no god so I win ;D

Every post you make is designed with that intention.

This forum is named "comparitave religion" and your posts never live up to that name. Not one post.

Comparative religion is the comparision of different religious beliefs. The way you compare them is let Person A, state what his religion professes and for person B, to state what his religion professes. To view the differences in the statements is the comparision. A glance of both statements is a reasonably fair method for everybody to see in what areas they agree and in what areas they disagree.
 
Woodrow said:
Person A, state what his religion professes and for Person B, to state what his religion professes.


But you do not take that approach.

Your approach is to state what you believe and then tell Person B what he believes. ie that the bible is the word of g-d
 
What is the difference between G-d and Al--h?

There should not be. But apparantly some people think so. Although many of us Muslims believe we should spell out all of Allah(swt) rather then leave out some letters.
 
The Qur'an tells us that jesus(as) did not die on the cross, "but it was made to appear so" .. The ones who wanted Jesus(as) dead were deceived into believing he had really died, but the truth is that he did not die at all.

Who are you talking about---"the ones who wanted Jesus dead were deceived into believing he had really died"? Who "wanted Jesus dead"? Not His disciples. The Pharisees and the other Jewish religious leaders "wanted Jesus dead." So THEY were "deceived into believing he had really died"?? So is THAT why they requested that guards stand watch over the tomb to make sure His disciples didn't steal His body and claim He rose from the grave?

Jesus' disciples did NOT want Him dead, but they all believed He was crucified. His dead body was taken down from the cross and laid in a tomb:

Mark's account:
Mark 15:
37. And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.
38. Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
39. Now when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, "Truly this Man was the Son of God!''
43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
44. Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.
45. And when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.
46. Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

John's account:
John 19:
32. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
33. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
36. For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken.''
37. And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced.''
38. After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus.
39. And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.
40. Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.
41. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
42. So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.

They took the dead body of Jesus, not someone else. They handled His dead body. They wrapped His dead body. They laid Jesus' dead body in a tomb. What do these verses mean, if not what they say?!?

Plus, He had told them several times BEFORE He was crucified that He WOULD be crucified. Did He lie to them?

Mark 9:31 (NASB)-- For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."

Furthermore, His death was fulfillment of prophecy, specifically, Isaiah 53:
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.

That prophecy of Isaiah come as Isaiah was "moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21), and the Holy Spirit moved him to say or write of Christ's death, not some supposed rescue by God so someone else would die instead!!

After Jesus' death, it was His resurrection that His own disciples initially refused to believe. Not His death, but His resurrection. His death was a given. His resurrection had to be proved before they would believe.

Mark 16:
11. And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.
12. After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
13. And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
14. Afterward He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

And don't forget "doubting Thomas" who refused to believe He had risen:

John 20:
24. But Thomas, called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord.'' But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.''
26. And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!''
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.''
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''


I suppose these historical accounts that you mention of, were written by these people who were deceived.. so we as muslims cannot take that as evidence as we know it is faulty. Seeing is always believing.. but this was a miracle of Allah swt. And if you find this hard to believe, you might as well reject the many miracles performed by Jesus(a.s) on similiar grounds.

Please tell me --- what was the purpose of this supposed "miracle of Allah"?? To deceive people into thinking one thing when something else actually happened? And for what purpose? Why did Allah not want Jesus to pay for our sins? So we could pay for them ourselves for all eternity in the lake of fire?

No, it is obvious to me that the writer of the Quran was wrong, wrong, wrong. The whole account as given in the Quran makes no sense, has no reason, is totally inconsistent with everything else said in verse after verse in both Old Testament and New Testament. It is so out of place as to be obviously erroneous. In fact it creates a contradiction with every other statement, dozens and dozens, to the contrary.

But the saddest part of it all, is that your eternity hinges on this most crucial fact of history, that Jesus died for our sins. If He didn't, you have to pay for them. If He did, and you reject that, you'll have to pay for them. It is not the disciples and historians that were deceived. It is YOU if you believe He didn't die for YOUR sins.

Peace
 
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Who are you talking about---"the ones who wanted Jesus dead were deceived into believing he had really died"? Who "wanted Jesus dead"? Not His disciples. The Pharisees and the other Jewish religious leaders "wanted Jesus dead." So THEY were "deceived into believing he had really died"?? So is THAT why they requested that guards stand watch over the tomb to make sure His disciples didn't steal His body and claim He rose from the grave?
Firstly i got a bit confused. i do know that it was the disciples who recorded the gospels. but the Bible cannot be trusted, because it has been altered. There was a gosple and it was the 'injeel' containing Allah's true message.

Jesus' disciples did NOT want Him dead, but they all believed He was crucified. His dead body was taken down from the cross and laid in a tomb:

Mark's account:
Mark 15:
37. And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.
38. Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
39. Now when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, "Truly this Man was the Son of God!''
43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
44. Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.
45. And when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.
46. Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

John's account:
John 19:
32. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
33. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
36. For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken.''
37. And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced.''
38. After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus.
39. And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.
40. Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.
41. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
42. So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.
All i can say is that, if a single word in the Bible has been altered, then there is the possibility that paragraphs or even chapters have been fabricated.

Furthermore, His death was fulfillment of prophecy, specifically, Isaiah 53:
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.

That prophecy of Isaiah come as Isaiah was "moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21), and the Holy Spirit moved him to say or write of Christ's death, not some supposed rescue by God so someone else would die instead!!
I suppose those verses in OT were also fabricated by the Christians later to suit their idea of a saviour.

Please tell me --- what was the purpose of this supposed "miracle of Allah"?? To deceive people into thinking one thing when something else actually happened? And for what purpose? Why did Allah not want Jesus to pay for our sins? So we could pay for them ourselves for all eternity in the lake of fire?
Allah deceived these enemies of jesus(as), so that His Prophet could be saved from death. The disciples however were good followers of Jesus(as) and stuck to pure monotheism(without ascribing partners with Allah).. it looks like the real history of christianity starts with paul.

No, it is obvious to me that the writer of the Quran was wrong, wrong, wrong. The whole account as given in the Quran makes no sense, has no reason, is totally inconsistent with everything else said in verse after verse in both Old Testament and New Testament. It so out of place as to be obviously erroneous. In fact it creates a contradiction with every other statement, dozens and dozens, to the contrary.
If it creates contradictions with OT and NT, it doesn't mean that the Qu'ran is at fault or error. That's not logical.

But the saddest part of it all, is that your eternity hinges on this most crucial fact of history, that Jesus died for our sins. If He didn't, you have to pay for them. If He did, and you reject that, you'll have to pay for them. It is not the disciples and historians that were deceived. It is YOU if you believe He didn't die for YOUR sins.
Why would God want his only son dead for the sake of sinners?

To me, It's like a father throwing his son in jail, for the release of a criminal.

I see an angry tone in you, so relax and no offence intended in my post. I agree with Woodrow's post. we must discuss the authenticity of the bible, if we are to get somewhere, or else we shall all go in circles.
 
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