Does God change his mind?

[- Qatada -]

But we believe that Allah has fully disclosed His plans in Quran. We also believe that He doesn't change His rules. However, some basic rules were changed in Quran itself. There're some difference in rules in Madni Ahyas (Ahyas that were revealed in madina) than the Macci Ahyas.

Maybe you could bring proof for that? Allaah hasn't explained to us how long we all will live. Nor has he told us everything about paradise or hellfire. So no - Allaah hasn't given us knowledge of everything.

 

[Talha777]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

no God doesn't change his mind.. he's perfect!!

that's coming from a christian perspective though.. i believe that muslims do believe he changes his mind, since the qu'ran talks about abrogation. but i'm no muslim so i have no credibility when it comes to islam lol

Muslims believe that Allah doesn't change His mind. Abrogation of a commandment is not changing your mind if you intended it in the first place. For example, if I have an intention of going to sleep for a few hours, and after my decided duration I wake up, is this changing my mind? The answer is no, it cannot be defined as changing one's mind if it was intended from the beginning. Also, abrogation is clearly mentioned in your Bible as well:

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
(Genesis 18:22-33)

So in this one example alone, we find the God of the Bible abrogating His decision a total of six times! My advice to Christians is don't throw stones at other people's houses when your own houses are made of glass.

 

[Skavau]

Allah Tala does NOT change His mind. He has not fully disclosed His plan to us, thus it seems to us that He has changed His mind, when, for example, He abrogates an law and reveals a new one. Allah has His own timetable which we have no knowledge of.

But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.

Just a thought.

 

[Talha777]

But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.
Just a thought

The Plan of Allah in no way eradicates our free will. Our free will is limited to that which we have control over, such as our deeds and our beliefs. Obviously, the will of Allah is supreme and governs the universe, not ours. So there are some circumstances which we are in which are a result of Allah's doing and not ours, but Allah judges us in such a way that we are not subjected to any unfairness. Allah has full knowledge of the effects of creating us in our environment and how our existence on this Earth will play out. He has designed His Plan in accordance with that knowledge. It is also true that His Plan is as He desires despite the fact that He has purposely given us limited free will. Nothing is impossible for Allah, even if it may seem illogical for us.

I don't know what you mean by Allah "implementing" His plan Himself. If you mean by that Allah directly fulfilling His plan rather indirectly through our actions that is a fallacious question. Allah does, however, directly intervene in our affairs, by, for example, answering our prayers and sending revelation to His Prophets. This is not out of necessity for fulfilling the plan. Rather it is a sign for us of His power to strengthen our own faith.

 

[NoName55]

no God doesn't change his mind.. he's perfect!!

that's coming from a christian perspective though.. i believe that muslims do believe he changes his mind, since the qu'ran talks about abrogation. but i'm no muslim so i have no credibility when it comes to islam lol

so, you believe in and follow Tanakh as Jews believe in it?

according to who is this
first there was 1 then it was 2 then 3 gods then 3in1
first no eating swine or blood or strangled animal then there was free for all, [SIZE=-1]in The Old Testament G-d said not to eat swine but he seems to have told you: its ok, I'v changed my mind (perhaps on request of Paul and Romans)[/SIZE]
first their was circumcision there was not
first Shabbat was seventh day of week then it is first
first he said don't make idols to worship, now he is allowing it

would you like me to go on and on?

peace

 

[NoName55]

But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.

Just a thought.

why would you need to worry or argue about some thing you claim not to believe that even exists?
me is confuzid

 

[Umar001]

No creature is to worship anything other then Allah.

From what I have read he certaintly does, take one example: When God commanded Ibilis (Shaitan-Satan) to Prostrate towards Adam God broke the divine law of history's self proclaimed stewart.

Hi Kyubi,

You have again shown your lack of being able to wiegh situations.

Does postration = worship? Did God tell the angels to worship Adam? Please show if that is the case.

Rather, they were told to what? Postrate, now does postration mean that it is worship, it seems like you think it does, but I disagree with you there, postration does not necessitate worship.

There is postration of respect, and postration of worship. God told them to postrate in the form of respect.

But then again I doubt you will WANT to understand.

Regards Eesa.

 

[NoName55]

when a barrister bows to a judge at crown court is he worshiping him?

 

[Muezzin]

This prostration stuff doesn't really answer the question posed in the first post.

 

[Skavau]

why would you need to worry or argue about some thing you claim not to believe that even exists?

Because I find the topic interesting? I don't need to say anything, you're right - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be sceptical.

The Plan of Allah in no way eradicates our free will. Our free will is limited to that which we have control over, such as our deeds and our beliefs.

That makes sense.

So there are some circumstances which we are in which are a result of Allah's doing and not ours, but Allah judges us in such a way that we are not subjected to any unfairness. Allah has full knowledge of the effects of creating us in our environment and how our existence on this Earth will play out.

So Allah is able to see the end result of this, if I can term it like this - madness? He understood the direct impact of everything upon creation? If that is indeed the case, then everything is already known. This (in my view) undermines free-will.

He has designed His Plan in accordance with that knowledge. It is also true that His Plan is as He desires despite the fact that He has purposely given us limited free will. Nothing is impossible for Allah, even if it may seem illogical for us.

So the plan will proceed as originally concieved no matter what? This is also combined with Allah's infinite knowledge of everything makes for a script based world.

I don't know what you mean by Allah "implementing" His plan Himself. If you mean by that Allah directly fulfilling His plan rather indirectly through our actions that is a fallacious question.

tbh, I was just rambling to a degree. What I meant is that if Allah has to intervene out of necessity (free-will interrupts the plan) to ensure the plan has to return back on track. Now you've claimed that it is going to happen anyway then that doesn't mean anything.

Many thanks, Skavau

 

[moujahid]

You are going round in circles Skavau. It is good that you ponder over this and may ALLAH reward your efforts in trying to know the truth. ALLAH is not constrained by time and He is free of all faults. If you read the Qur'an, you will come across verses talking about the day of reckoning as if it has happened in the past. For example, ALLAH says "remember" the day when you will be awaken from the long sleep(in the grave), "remember" the punishment of the grave. So it is clear that for ALLAH, the future is already known. The destiny was written long before we were even created. You can go ahead and change your mind a million times before you do something, ALLAH will know what will you end up doing in the end. So ALLAH does not change His mind, nor He is confused.
It is also recommended that we do not think about this too much because we simply can't. And its not called giving up its called common sense. We are limited and our thinking is limited. By saying that ALLAH does change His mind, you are inferring that ALLAH wasn't sure what He was doing in the first place (Na'udhubillah), which is a blasphemy.
In conclusion, Allah has no need to change His mind, because He is all perfect. His initial decisions were perfect. and also He has power over everything.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lets say if you see a person in trouble. Would u help the person or walk away? Either way, whatever step you take, Allah knows the outcomes of both decisions. That is the All-Knowing God.

 

[Talha777]

Subhan Allah, beautiful answer by brother moujahid.

So Allah is able to see the end result of this, if I can term it like this - madness? He understood the direct impact of everything upon creation? If that is indeed the case, then everything is already known. This (in my view) undermines free-will.

I don't see how Allah having knowledge of everything, including the past, present, and future, is undermining our free will. Knowledge is one thing, interfering with our free will is quite another.

tbh, I was just rambling to a degree. What I meant is that if Allah has to intervene out of necessity (free-will interrupts the plan) to ensure the plan has to return back on track. Now you've claimed that it is going to happen anyway then that doesn't mean anything.

Everything that happens is in accord with the plan of Allah, there are no surprises for Him.

 

[Skavau]

You are going round in circles Skavau.

Philosophy does. A lack of conclusion = constant speculation.

It is good that you ponder over this and may ALLAH reward your efforts in trying to know the truth.

Uh... thanks?

ALLAH is not constrained by time and He is free of all faults

The idea you present above means nothing to me because it doesn't say anything asides a statement. Your overall conclusion (that I can gather) is that we just are unable to comprehend God, or the concept of it. But that doesn't apply to me. I wish to search.

So it is clear that for ALLAH, the future is already known.

Then fate will take the course, ne?

he destiny was written long before we were even created. You can go ahead and change your mind a million times before you do something, ALLAH will know what will you end up doing in the end.

This implies that again, there is no free-will because Allah has already foreseen what is going to happen. Foreseen long before I even existed.

It is also recommended that we do not think about this too much because we simply can't.

The concept of 'everything' in knowledge, power and morality is impossible to comprehend because it has so many logical problems.

We are limited and our thinking is limited. By saying that ALLAH does change His mind, you are inferring that ALLAH wasn't sure what He was doing in the first place (Na'udhubillah), which is a blasphemy.

I don't think I said Allah would change his mind? Please quote where I said that.

 

[Skavau]

I don't see how Allah having knowledge of everything, including the past, present, and future, is undermining our free will. Knowledge is one thing, interfering with our free will is quite another.

Because if he has full knowledge of everything, then he knows the outcome of everything. My own decisions have already been preseen and to my eyes, that undermines free-will. This is what I mean, and I didn't type this bit:

What this means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if God already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then God would have been wrong about knowing we were going to choose A, and God can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.

 

[Umar001]

This prostration stuff doesn't really answer the question posed in the first post.

My bad just that I can't stand such terrible views and understanding.

Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?

Yes He'd know what He wants from the Start or before the Start.


With regards to knowledge and free choice.

First it's free choice not free will, we only have choices between different circumstances given to us. If we have three doors, then we have the freedom of choice to choose between the doors but we dont have free will to make another door.

To move on, does knowing something before it happens mean that you are forcing it to happen or that there is no other possible outcome?

A mere example, a teacher teaches two students, he knows the characteristics of the students and is familier with their average examination results. He sets a test and based on his knowledge predicts one student will get 34% and the other 98%, the knowldge being stuff like the fact that one student does not study the night before and that he does not take notes and does not ask for help, he writes this and places it on his desk.

The students take the test, later one student sees the piece of paper with the predictions which in fact were right. Would this mean that the student had no free choice in studying the night before? Or taking notes? Or asking for help?

Similarly, Allah has the knowledge but we are not forced to commit adultery, we are not forced to pray all night, but we do, Allah knowing we do does not mean our choice is not ours.

Eesa

 

[Talha777]

Because if he has full knowledge of everything, then he knows the outcome of everything. My own decisions have already been preseen and to my eyes, that undermines free-will. This is what I mean, means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if God already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then God would have been wrong about knowing we were going to choose A, and God can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.

You're still not making sense, and your confusing an outside knowledge of our actions as somehow compelling those actions. That is a fallacy on your part. Yes Allah knows if we are going to do A or B, but He doesn't compel us to do A or B. Knowing something is not the same as causing something.

The point of free will is that we become responsible for our actions, and so we become deserving of Heaven's reward or Hell's punishment. Let's say for the sake of argument that I know you are a good person and you will never steal in your whole life, even before your life is over. When you die without having stolen anything in your life, does it mean because my knowledge of your foreactions somehow compelled you to not steal? The answer is obviously no, and this scenario is similar to how Allah knows everything about our lives including its outcome, despite the fact that we have a limited free will.

 

[Skavau]

You're still not making sense, and your confusing an outside knowledge of our actions as somehow compelling those actions. That is a fallacy on your part. Yes Allah knows if we are going to do A or B, but He doesn't compel us to do A or B. Knowing something is not the same as causing something.

The point of free will is that we become responsible for our actions, and so we become deserving of Heaven's reward or Hell's punishment. Let's say for the sake of argument that I know you are a good person and you will never steal in your whole life, even before your life is over. When you die without having stolen anything in your life, does it mean because my knowledge of your foreactions somehow compelled you to not steal? The answer is obviously no, and this scenario is similar to how Allah knows everything about our lives including its outcome, despite the fact that we have a limited free will.

I'm taking the assumption here that 'knowing the future' is a direct contradiction with free-will. My reasoning on this is using other examples. If someone knows you are going to do something, and no matter what - you will do it, there is no free-will on behalf of the action. In other words, if something is known - then there is nothing 'free' about it.

To relate this to God, well - he argubly did decide our futures because he designed us (according to Theists) with full knowledge of everything. At the beginning of creation, God would of known all of my choices in my life. Should this be the case then where does any free-will come into it? My future is known at the beginning and I will follow that because otherwise, God would be wrong. When do I myself decide upon these options? If they're known before I even exist as a human - then when do I decide what I'm going to do? At the moment itself? That's already been seen. I will make the set of choices I supposedly decided. So does my own inherent personality make those choices for me? Where does free-will begin and God's knowledge of everything end?

Thanks, Skavau.

Ps: I am off to bed soon, so I may not reply until a later date.

 

[NoName55]

I never knew we had free will, I always thought that we had a free choice to choose either this or that .

 

[Talha777]

When I say limited free will basically I mean free choice. Both terms are interchangable.