Does God change his mind?

[Skywalker]

I don't suggest Allah compels us to do anything, I suggest that him knowing everything is a problem with the idea of free-choice. And yes, without independent will - the idea of accountability goes out of the window.

Not exactly. Why should God's knowledge of your actions -- past, present, and future -- affect your free will? No matter what you do, God already knows that you will do it, but what you'll be held accountable for will be your intention for every action.

It's kinda like that line from the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."

 

[Skavau]

Not exactly. Why should God's knowledge of your actions -- past, present, and future -- affect your free will? No matter what you do, God already knows that you will do it, but what you'll be held accountable for will be your intention for every action.

It's kinda like that line from the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."

Okay, but what are my intentions and when are they decided? Upon the creation, Allah could see the course of my life. Did I decide then how I would live?

So when I was born, my future was known - my path had already been seen. I would be doomed to follow it because it has been preseen and then I'm being told that the path I would go on is from my own choices?

 

[Ra`eesah]

Let us image that we are all created and from our creation we are all placed in our final abode. Those in hell will say “ What have I done to deserve this?” and of course we know that Allaah placed those in hell who deserve it, but no he gave you that chance to live it out, and to change if you wanted to and if you didn’t, then that is enough for you to accept the fact that you are going to hell when you are told to go to hell. Because you can not say, I DID NOT KNOW! Or I DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE MYSELF. And for that is the reason why Allaah from his mercy lets you live your life with free will. Just because he knows the past, present, and future does not rid you of your free will.

 

[Skywalker]

Okay, but what are my intentions and when are they decided?

You decide your own intentions before doing something. They are then used on the Day of Judgement either for your or against you, depending on whether they were good or bad.

Upon the creation, Allah could see the course of my life. Did I decide then how I would live?

You decide how you live with every decision that you make in your life. Allah knows what you're going to do, but it's up to you to do the action and then see for yourself how and why you did it. Free will does not play a part in this at all because you don't know what your destiny is nor do you know what God knows. You only know what God has told you and ordered you to do, and it's up to you to either live your life according to those rules, or not.

So when I was born, my future was known - my path had already been seen.

By Allah, yes. But not by anyone else.

I would be doomed to follow it because it has been preseen and then I'm being told that the path I would go on is from my own choices?

Exactly. This path that is preseen (or better yet pre-written) by God is a collection of your own choices, which you are not aware of. You will only know them once you've done them, and then again on the Day of Judgement. Again, free will is not a factor in this UNLESS you know what your destiny is, which nobody does but Allah.

 

[Skavau]

You decide your own intentions before doing something. They are then used on the Day of Judgement either for your or against you, depending on whether they were good or bad.

But when I do something, I don't see how I can clarify my intentions at the time if they have already been seen.

You decide how you live with every decision that you make in your life. Allah knows what you're going to do, but it's up to you to do the action and then see for yourself how and why you did it. Free will does not play a part in this at all because you don't know what your destiny is nor do you know what God knows. You only know what God has told you and ordered you to do, and it's up to you to either live your life according to those rules, or not.

Then it is an illusion. If another source knows my path, based on my actions or otherwise - it is GOING to happen. Irrelelvent if I know it.

By Allah, yes. But not by anyone else.

So Allah sees the path of millions who die before they gain the ability to make their own choices?

My argument falls on the idea that I contend Free-Will is incompatible with the knowledge of the future by any source. Anyway, I will leave now. I will continue this discussion elsewhen.

Good Day.

 

[NoName55]

1. we don't believe in three gods.

and 2. paul answered all these questions..the law is a spiritual thing.

You astonish me, I am gobsmaked.

in answer to your allegation against Islaam, I said and I quote for you again

Originally Posted by NoName55
so, you believe in and follow Tanakh as Jews believe in it?

according to who is this
first there was 1 then it was 2 then 3 gods then 3in1
first no eating swine or blood or strangled animal then there was free for all, [SIZE=-1]in The Old Testament G-d said not to eat swine but he seems to have told you: its ok, I'v changed my mind (perhaps on request of Paul and Romans)[/SIZE]
first their was circumcision there was not
first Shabbat was seventh day of week then it is first
first he said don't make idols to worship, now he is allowing it

would you like me to go on and on?

peace

So its not changed, Paul obeys the law spiritually instead in deed and action.
so in practical terms if one passes a victim of stabbing, one can just pass on by, no need to call an ambulance because Christ is going to take care of it.
we should not bother sending any help to any victims of any disaster since it would be usuping Jesus' authority?

no circimcision, for circimcision of the mind!

I give up!!!

Peace

 

[Skywalker]

But when I do something, I don't see how I can clarify my intentions at the time if they have already been seen.

Even if they've already been seen or not, you will have your intention as proof that you did what you did for a particular reason. For example, if you step on a bug inside your house; is your intention to kill the bug because you like killing bugs, or is it because you fear that it might harm you or your family?

There's a very cool story about Ali (ra), the Prophet's (pbuh) son in law, who was fighting in a war during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). He was duelling with a man and he forced him to the ground and was just about to finish him off, when the man spit in his face. At that point Ali put his sword down and told the man that he could go. The man was confused, so he asked him why he was letting him go. Ali told him that he was fighting the war for the sake of Allah, to end opression against his people and to establish justice, but when that man spit at him, he was no longer going to kill him for Allah's sake, but out of his own anger and hatred. The intention in that case, and in almost all decisions in life, changes everything.

Then it is an illusion. If another source knows my path, based on my actions or otherwise - it is GOING to happen. Irrelelvent if I know it.

Yes, but nevertheless, from your point of view, you have freewill to do what you want. For example, if you suspect that your destiny is to take a right turn at an intersection, but you want to execise your freewill and challenge destiny, so you take a left turn instead. Is this not freewill? Nevertheless, it was still your destiny to take a left turn, and not a right. It was your destiny to attempt to challenge your destiny, which led you to take a left turn. There is no illusion.

Now do you get it?

So Allah sees the path of millions who die before they gain the ability to make their own choices?

That is correct. However, He has promised paradise to those who die before they are able to make conscious decisions, therefore they will not be held accountable for anything.

My argument falls on the idea that I contend Free-Will is incompatible with the knowledge of the future by any source.

I hope that my example has helped you see that they are, in fact, compatible.

 

[Skavau]

Even if they've already been seen or not, you will have your intention as proof that you did what you did for a particular reason. For example, if you step on a bug inside your house; is your intention to kill the bug because you like killing bugs, or is it because you fear that it might harm you or your family?

Let's suggest that it is because I like killing bugs. When do I decide to have the intention of killing bugs? According to free-will, your motivations and opinions are built up from your own experience. Experience implies I will do something. That something I do though has already been pre-seen by another figure. I have already been seen to do everything I will do even though I do not exist as of yet. No matter what I will fulfill what has been seen.

If I will fulfill what has been seen, then where do I draw my motivations and beliefs from? It can't be from previous experiences because they were already seen to happen regardless of what my motivation would be. I'm trying to find a way of putting this into words. :grumbling

Yes, but nevertheless, from your point of view, you have freewill to do what you want. For example, if you suspect that your destiny is to take a right turn at an intersection, but you want to execise your freewill and challenge destiny, so you take a left turn instead. Is this not freewill? Nevertheless, it was still your destiny to take a left turn, and not a right. It was your destiny to attempt to challenge your destiny, which led you to take a left turn. There is no illusion.

It would of been preseen by Allah that I would inevitably take a left-turn despite my apparent confusion on what turn that I would take - I would, in the end - take the left-turn. My lack of knowledge over my future does not eradicate that another source would know my future.

That is correct. However, He has promised paradise to those who die before they are able to make conscious decisions, therefore they will not be held accountable for anything.

What is the purpose of their existence then? He would of pre-seen millions of individuals who would live for a very short time and then die and be given an instant position in paradise?

Anyway, now I really must go. I used to say a lot more stuff about this topic in the past - but I'm finding hard to clarify what I mean on this - when it goes this deep.

Anyway, G'day.

 

[asma14]

Personally I think it's pointless debating with disbelievers and those who think they have the right to question God's will. It's futile, because only Allah guides who He wills.

I am satisfied that Allah will answer all your questions on the Day and answer them in a way that will be remembered for eternity. Muslims are being dragged into these pointless discussions rather than gaining more knowledge about their deen.

Muslim brothers and sisters, on-going debates only lead to blasphemous comments from non believers. Who needs it? Remember, we cannot change anyone's thinking until Allah wills it. And when He wills it, He opens the doors for them.

Let's spend our time and energy increasing our knowledge and helping our brothers and sisters who are needy or lost. There's a difference between giving dawah and trying to refute something that someone so adamantly believes. I hope you all agree with me - salam.

i agree with you...why not simply answer the question, and then go on and learn more important things about Islam....?

 

[Talha777]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

I agree, I have personally written several posts clarifying the belief of Islam in this regard and answer several of Mr. Skavau's questions. To continue on is a pointless waste of time. I request the thread should be closed.

 

[Skywalker]

Let's suggest that it is because I like killing bugs. When do I decide to have the intention of killing bugs?

In Islam, we have a habit of stating our intention before doing anything, usually in our heads or as a whisper, so that it can be recorded by the Angels and used for your benefit on the Day of Judgement. That's why we say "Bismillah" whenever we do something good or something for Allah's sake. But an intention could also be unconscious, and this is based on your character and your experiences as you said.

An interesting aspect to this is that if you don't intend to do something bad and it just happens, then you won't be punished for it. You'll only be punished for a bad thing that you intended to do. Also, if you make the intention of doing something bad, but don't do it, Allah will reward you. Also, if you intend to do something good, but don't do it, Allah will give you one reward for you intention... but if you carry out the good act after you've made your intention, Allah will reward you a thousand times over. That's Allah's great generosity and mecry for ya!

Allah's is the only judicial system that judges you by your intention, and is the only one that can be 100% fair.

I take it you're here to learn some of these things, that's why I'm writing this. I hope I'm not boring you...

I have already been seen to do everything I will do even though I do not exist as of yet. No matter what I will fulfill what has been seen.

That is correct. I think it's important to point out that westerners have a rather different understanding of what destiny is than Muslims. I've noticed in a lot of movies, shows, etc. that characters are always saying how they want to change their destinies, or change their fates. What it seems to me is that they think that if they are born into a certain way of life, let's say being poor, that if they become rich later on in life, they are changing their destiny. Or if they think they can't do something and everybody keeps insisting that it's their destiny to forget about it, and they do it anyways, that their destiny has changed somehow.

The Islamic understanding is that all the choices that you'll make in life and all the actions that you'll do as a result of those choices is pre-written. Now, on the Day of Judgement, Allah will tell you that you did that and that, and He will ask you why you did it. This is where your intention comes in. If your intention is for good and out of obedience to Allah, then it'll be counted as a good deed, but if it was for something bad, or something out of rebellion to Allah, then it'll be counted as a bad deed. We each live our lives so that we have a chance to make the right intentions for our actions (which to us seem like choices), so that we will have proof on the Day of Judgement that we did each action for certain reasons.

It's exactly how they said it in the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."

If I will fulfill what has been seen, then where do I draw my motivations and beliefs from? It can't be from previous experiences because they were already seen to happen regardless of what my motivation would be. I'm trying to find a way of putting this into words.

Yeah, I know it's tricky, all this destiny talk. Well, you live your live obvlivious to your future, all you know is your past and your present, and what has been revealed by Allah to be the future. So in other words, who really cares what your destiny is as long as you do your best on an everyday basis to do good things and to please Allah. You motivation in this case is from your faith in Allah which is partly from the natural beacon that he placed inside each of us that wants to return to Him, and this is what gives us compassion, discipline, and all things that make us want to live by good deeds and in peace with one another.

My lack of knowledge over my future does not eradicate that another source would know my future.

That "other source" is Allah. I don't see what the problem is with that, as it would not influence your freewill whatsoever.

What is the purpose of their existence then? He would of pre-seen millions of individuals who would live for a very short time and then die and be given an instant position in paradise?

Only Allah knows that their role is on the earth. We can only speculate. Maybe it's a test of integrity for their parents, or maybe a test of compassion for the nurses and doctors that would treat a newborn baby before it dies. Everyone is faced with some kind of tragedy or hardship in their lives as a test from Allah. Even the ones who seem to have it easy, they're also being tested, just differently than others.

I used to say a lot more stuff about this topic in the past - but I'm finding hard to clarify what I mean on this - when it goes this deep.

I know what you mean, man.

 

[Skavau]

In Islam, we have a habit of stating our intention before doing anything, usually in our heads or as a whisper, so that it can be recorded by the Angels and used for your benefit on the Day of Judgement. That's why we say "Bismillah" whenever we do something good or something for Allah's sake. But an intention could also be unconscious, and this is based on your character and your experiences as you said.

An interesting aspect to this is that if you don't intend to do something bad and it just happens, then you won't be punished for it. You'll only be punished for a bad thing that you intended to do. Also, if you make the intention of doing something bad, but don't do it, Allah will reward you. Also, if you intend to do something good, but don't do it, Allah will give you one reward for you intention... but if you carry out the good act after you've made your intention, Allah will reward you a thousand times over. That's Allah's great generosity and mecry for ya!

Well that all sounds like a productive system, and it would be to me if there wasn't the conflict that I see of fate being incompatible with the idea of free-point. I don't see how the intention is made just before the action happens. The action has already been seen. You've already been seen that you'll do it. So are intentions inherent?

I've also come to consider that if the future is known, it implies a force existent to foresee it. If that is the case, then is the future under a degree of control? It implies that there is only a set path - which brings about the idea of something developing that path.

That is correct. I think it's important to point out that westerners have a rather different understanding of what destiny is than Muslims. I've noticed in a lot of movies, shows, etc. that characters are always saying how they want to change their destinies, or change their fates. What it seems to me is that they think that if they are born into a certain way of life, let's say being poor, that if they become rich later on in life, they are changing their destiny. Or if they think they can't do something and everybody keeps insisting that it's their destiny to forget about it, and they do it anyways, that their destiny has changed somehow.

If destiny exists then it cannot be changed.

Only Allah knows that their role is on the earth. We can only speculate. Maybe it's a test of integrity for their parents, or maybe a test of compassion for the nurses and doctors that would treat a newborn baby before it dies. Everyone is faced with some kind of tragedy or hardship in their lives as a test from Allah. Even the ones who seem to have it easy, they're also being tested, just differently than others.

So Allah presees all these tests at the beginning. He sees the results of them all too? So he develops existence for us humans. He already knows the fate of everything (so where do you assess the motivation?)

I do not see 'testing' as a valid position when Allah is aware of all the outcomes and our actions have already been seen.

Anyway, Good Day. I'm off to work now.

 

[Muezzin]

Danger, Will Robinson. Off-topic posts.

 

[Skywalker]

Well that all sounds like a productive system, and it would be to me if there wasn't the conflict that I see of fate being incompatible with the idea of free-point. I don't see how the intention is made just before the action happens. The action has already been seen. You've already been seen that you'll do it. So are intentions inherent?

The intention is made before you do the action either consciously or unconsciously. The outcome is the same, the action will take place, but your intention for that action depends on you, your will, your faith, your experience, etc. and this is what will be used to judge you.

To be honest, I don't understand your point of view of how destiny can hinder freewill. As long as you don't know what your destiny is, then you're free to do whatever you like, however you like.

I've also come to consider that if the future is known, it implies a force existent to foresee it. If that is the case, then is the future under a degree of control? It implies that there is only a set path - which brings about the idea of something developing that path.

Well this is where things might get a little complicated. God doesn't need to foresee the future, He actually exists in the future, and in the past, and now -- time is not an issue when it comes to Allah, it's merely something He created for us like a timer on an exam. So he doesn't need to "foresee" anything, He simply "sees" it. And yes, the future is under a degree of control, as is the past and the present. However, my guess on this is that, for example, for an earthquake to happen in California on July 28th, 2008, God had aligned the tactonic plates and all variables needed at the beginning of creation so that an earthquake will happen on that date. That means that He has already created all scenarios from the beginning of time to the end of time, calculated all the variables, and "pressed the ON button" if you will. That's how amazing Allah's knowledge is.

As for the "developing path" point, the path is constantly developing with time, but how and when that path will develop has already been pre-determined.

Idunno if I made my points as clear as I wanted this time around, but yeah, it's getting harder to express certain things the deeper we go.

If destiny exists then it cannot be changed.

I'm glad we agree

I do not see 'testing' as a valid position when Allah is aware of all the outcomes and our actions have already been seen.

The test is not for Him to see if you're good enough, the test is for YOU to see if you're good enough and deserving of God's reward.

Danger, Will Robinson. Off-topic posts.

Dude, we're right on topic! Destiny has everything to do with the idea of "God changing His mind."

 

[Makky]

Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?

The answer is : NO he doesn't

Allah says in surrat Qaf : [29] "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

But according to shiaa(1) they believe that He changes his mind and this belief innovated due to the delay of the appearance of thier (IMAM) , because before year 140 (after hijrah) shiaa used to believe that their (IMAM almahdi) will appears form a tunnel in a city called samerraa but yet when year 140 came he didn't appear ,lol, so they innovated a belief which says that Allah changes his mind..and he changed his mind about that

source:
أصول الكافي ص232 مطبوعة الهند
Aussul alkafi ( a shia book)





______________________________________________

(1)this belief leads them to kufr because Allah says in [50:29] "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants." and he says in surrat alan3am [6:59] With Him are the keys of the Unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a Record clear (to those who can read).

 

[Abdihakim]

as a muslim i personally think no.

 

[Azhar786]

Salaam
God Does Not Change His Mind, God Already Knew Wat A Person Was Goin 2do B4 He Even Created Us Humans