Does God change his mind?
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Muslimah_Sis said:
So, as an unbeliever, I cannot go to paradise.
But I cannot be a believer until Allah wills it.
So, if Allah does not will it I never will be a believer and never go to paradise.
This is yet further evidence there is no god.
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But what are the conditions for Allah to will it? This is what you should look at. If you seek truth then Allah will will it.
The above was not further evidence of no god but rather of how we can sometimes have acute vision.
aamirsaab
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Correction; there is free will since we do not know what decision we are going to make until we make it. God knows our intentions and the path we are going to take, but we as humans still have a choice.
Well, ask yourself this, If you didn't have free will, would you be asking these questions?
That is for God to decide.
It's a two way thing; Allah is able to bless your heart with the desire to learn about Islam. Whether you convert/revert to the religion is not upto Allah, it is upto you.
Not really.
As for the thread title: Does God change his mind?. Obviously the thread starter has pretty much no idea what God is.
Thats what i meant...its 8.35 in the morning, giv me sum credit!! :rollseyes
How can God commit a sin?! Now ur just totallly killing da whole situation!
lolzzzzzzzz:happy:
Skavau
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If someone tells me I am going to turn the light on in 5 minutes because they have seen me do it - then it doesn't matter if I could of chosen not to turn that light on in 5 minutes because the reality in this instance would be that I WOULD turn it on.
Me asking questions is irrelevent to whether I have free will or not. If it has been seen that I would ask these questions, then I will inevitably ask these questions.
aamirsaab
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The reality would depend on what choice you made. God knows what choice you are going to make, but you have to carry it out. E.g. God has forseen which road you will take. However, when you choose to do this or the manner in which you do it is entirely up to you. The fact that you carry out the action is not a matter of free will, rather it is a matter of fate (e.g. it is fate that humans will reproduce, but at the same time there is free will of when it occurs). Hence we are able to believe in both free will and God.
Yes but you have the free will to ask whoever, whatever and whenever you wish. As stated before, the fact that you are asking these questions is a matter of fate. Whether you are affected, adversely or favourably, by the answers is indeed free will since it is up to you to make that decision.
AbuAbdallah
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As Muslims, we don't believe that God has told us every single decision that we will make, I think that is where you are getting confused. You can do whatever you are capable of doing, just know that Allah knew that you were going to do it. The free will is you doing whatever you want, the pre-destination is that Allah knew it before you were even created, get it?
Example: Instead of going to work, I freely decide to stay at home. Conclusion: I had free will, but it was also pre-destined.
If a person knew what their destiny was, then you would be correct in saying that there is no free will, but a person does not know what will happen in the next second. I hope this makes sense.
Skavau
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But when do I make this choice? At the time of the event happening? That can't truely be the case if the event has been foreseen.
But God would know that the manner in which I do it.
Fate and Free-Will to me are not compatible with each other. Fate say something WILL happen and nothing can stop it. Free-Will is the idea of being able to make independent thought. Somewhere along the line, Fate and Free-Will are going to hit each other.
Well all humans could just not from now take part in any sexual activity whatsoever. Therefore it would not be inevitable that reproduction would occur.
Correct - but that would be an illusion. Just because I am under the impression that I have independent thought and full control of my actions does not mean that I do have free-will.
So you're saying it was inevitable that I would ask these questions? That the only independent thing resulting from this is my reaction to these questions?
So you believe Free-Will is only choosing decisions? I chose a decision to come onto these forums and post on here. Was that free-will? It led to me finding this thread and discussing this topic. The Free-Will of making a decision to come here led me to this topic but the result of this was inevitable?
Many thanks, Skavau.
Skavau
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I understand the viewpoint you're coming from - but my argument rests on the basis that I do not believe knowledge of the future is compatible with free-will. You say that I'm able to do "whatever I am capable of doing", but when I am able to make these choices? They have been pre-seen by Allah. Do I make them when I come to a decision? The decision creates the action itself but if that decision has been known by someone else infinitely before I made it, then when do I make the decision? It can't happen at the moment because it was already foreseen to happen.
AbuAbdallah
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The decision has been known, not made. You make the decision at that point in time. If someone has knowledge of all of your actions before they were executed, that still does not affect what you will do now.
Skavau
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No it doesn't effect what I will do now, but it does effect my own freedom in doing what I do.
AbuAbdallah
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?...we must have two different definitions of freedom, what is the difference of choosing to do something, and having the freedom of choosing to do something? Same thing if you ask me.
Skavau
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I never mentioned choice, I mentioned the action. I mentioned the act of doing something itself doesn't change, but the freedom involved in doing it is gone.
I'm of the opinion there is no freedom of choice if the future is known. I don't understand where the original choice is made if the future is known. If God is able to see what will happen, then when what God sees does happen no matter what. Even if choice can co-exist, then my own choices have already been seen - so no matter what I am following a preseen path. I don't see how my own choice is made.
Talha777
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You're opinion that there is no freedom of choice if the future is know is incorrect. The future is known and we do have a choice. Our paths are preseen yes, but the path we take is subject to our choice. You need to do a better job of explaining why foreseeing something by Allah is somehow compelling that event to occur. Yes if Allah knows something, it will happen no matter what, but He knows it because you will do it.
But instead of us going in circles with this, I will simply ask you, even if Allah knows what we are going to do in life, is that an excuse for people to do evil, yes or no?
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Skavau
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There's some typoes there? I contend there is no freedom of choice if the future is known by a source.
But when is the choice made? It can't be at the current time because the choice has already been foreseen. So when?
I'm not suggesting that Allah is compelling anything to happen. He compells something to happen by the basis that he created everything - but I am not suggesting he is controlling anything. He just has the knowledge in this instance.
If Allah knows, then what happens is what happens. It would be an inevitable consequence.
But I do not advocate evil in any sense. Why do you ask this?
Talha777
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Our actions are not a consequence of Allah's knowledge of them. Rather, His knowledge of them is a consequence of Him Knowing everything, and our actions are a consequence of Allah giving us a limited free will in some aspects of our existence.
I ask this because our limited free will is so that we can be held account for our deeds. If Allah compels us to do something than how can we be held accountable for it?
thirdwatch512
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1. we don't believe in three gods.
and 2. paul answered all these questions..the law is a spiritual thing.
Talha777
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Paul contradicted Jesus (alaihi salam) on the purpose of the Mosaic Law. Jesus (alaihi salam) is reported in the New Testament as encouraging his followers to obey strictly what the Pharisees say, and to follow the Law of Moses:
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23:1-3)
Meaning that Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) commanded his followers to abide by whatever the Pharisees preach, because they preach the Law of Moses, but not to copy their actions, because they are hypocrites (they don't practice what they preach).
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah (Al-Maidah 5:46)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23:1-3)
Meaning that Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) commanded his followers to abide by whatever the Pharisees preach, because they preach the Law of Moses, but not to copy their actions, because they are hypocrites (they don't practice what they preach).
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah (Al-Maidah 5:46)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)
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Skavau
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I don't suggest Allah compels us to do anything, I suggest that him knowing everything is a problem with the idea of free-choice. And yes, without independent will - the idea of accountability goes out of the window.