Exactly what kind of Bible did the Christians in Muhammad's (pbuh) time have?

[3rddec]

I believe there is a copy of the bible in the Brittish Museum dating from 350ad and independant scholars agree that there are no significant alteration ( as in important to any docrinal or faith issues ) between it and present day bibles. So if there was it would be so easy to prove with all the evidence including thousands of other scrolls. So pointless.

The idea of any meaningfull differences is just a good story with no real basis .

 

[3rddec]

As far as worshiping a man ; we dont . But this person you call a man has lived for over 2000 years and was born of a Virgin and was prophesied for thousands of years before.
So even by your own beliefs he was a bit more than a man. Who in Islam can be called Holy or Blessed ?

Love and respect

 

[جوري]

The idea of any meaningfull differences is just a good story with no real basis .

so are empty words of assertions that can't be backed up with facts!..

As far as worshiping a man ; we dont . But this person you call a man has lived for over 2000 years and was born of a Virgin and was prophesied for thousands of years before. So even by your own beliefs he was a bit more than a man. Who in Islam can be called Holy or Blessed ? Love and respect

who do you worship if not a man? as to who is ''holy or blessed'' Lots of holy men out there.. the church takes a vote often on who to turn into holy saints.. it has lost all its bewitching charm.. not that Christianity ever had it ..

all the best

 

[3rddec]

ok how many do your Quran call Holy or Blessed?

and have never died?

Love and Respect

 

[جوري]

ok how many do your Quran call Holy or Blessed? and have never died? Love and Respect

I don't understand drivel!

all the best

 

[3rddec]

I apologise if i have said something to offend you but i believe that most muslims believe that Christ did not die on the cross and is presently in Heaven having been lifted there by God so as such is still alive so has been alive for nearly 2000 years. Also this is what the Quran says about Christ

surah 19:19
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

and as I'm not as well versed as you , again I ask you how many more people does the Quran state as being Holy.

Love and respect

 

[جوري]

I apologise if i have said something to offend you but i believe that most muslims believe that Christ did not die on the cross and is presently in Heaven having been lifted there by God so as such is still alive so has been alive for nearly 2000 years. Also this is what the Quran says about Christ surah 19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son." and as I'm not as well versed as you , again I ask you how many more people does the Quran state as being Holy. Love and respect

The word holy appears 19 times in the Quran not just pertaining to people.. for instance when Allah swt addressed Moses in what is know as 'alwadi almoqadis twua' the holy vale in Sinai!

all the best

 

[3rddec]

thank you for your help; I put the word Holy into a search on an online Quran I read and it came up 48 times ; maybe im wrong but it is mostly attached to Allah, and Isa some direct ( if not him directly then to say how he was strengthened by the Holy Spirit) the rest is places or books. I was also interested in what exactly is the Holy Spirit spoken about in many of the verses that supported him. But clearly it is a very special title Holy in the Quran and it was applied to Christ. I'm sure you would agree.

Love and respect.

 

[جوري]

thank you for your help; I put the word Holy into a search on an online Quran I read and it came up 48 times ; maybe im wrong but it is mostly attached to Allah, and Isa some direct ( if not him directly then to say how he was strengthened by the Holy Spirit) the rest is places or books. I was also interested in what exactly is the Holy Spirit spoken about in many of the verses that supported him. But clearly it is a very special title Holy in the Quran and it was applied to Christ. I'm sure you would agree. Love and respect.

Holy spirit is the archangel Gabriel..
sometimes when [] are used it isn't literally used but to render what the translator considers as close a meaning as possible to the original words, the Quran should be recited in Arabic and learned in Arabic..

all the best

 

[MartyrX]

thank you for your help; I put the word Holy into a search on an online Quran I read and it came up 48 times ; maybe im wrong but it is mostly attached to Allah, and Isa some direct ( if not him directly then to say how he was strengthened by the Holy Spirit) the rest is places or books. I was also interested in what exactly is the Holy Spirit spoken about in many of the verses that supported him. But clearly it is a very special title Holy in the Quran and it was applied to Christ. I'm sure you would agree.

Love and respect.

As I was speaking with my imam last night about the difficulties of a translated Quran. It's meant to be read in Arabic and sometimes well most of the time the translation is off. He was telling me sometime ago about reading the Quran and something didn't make sense and he showed it to a brother who has spoken english is whole life, and he didn't understand it either. Obviously all of us can't learn arabic but we can try. But I'm going off into a different subject.

 

[Aprender]

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-06/...tantine-tischendorf-new-testament?_s=PM:WORLD

The world's oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday -- but the 1,600-year-old text doesn't match the one you'll find in churches today.


Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.


The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.

 

[Ramadhan]

I believe there is a copy of the bible in the Brittish Museum dating from 350ad and independant scholars agree that there are no significant alteration ( as in important to any docrinal or faith issues ) between it and present day bibles.

I did not realize that Jesus (p) lived during 350 AD.......

What's next?
Jesus is God..?

Oh waiit...

never mind...

 

[JPR]

Ainmazg! Enyoreve can raed waht I am wirtnig and konw waht I maen eevn tghuogh I mix up all the lttres ecxpet the frsit and lsat one!

Now imagine if a scribe forgot only one letter because he was careless... Such an error would be easily corrected.

So far the first English translation based on about 14 Greek texts still stands as very accurate.

 

[Ramadhan]

So far the first English translation based on about 14 Greek texts still stands as very accurate.

I didn't realize that Jesus (p) was actually Greek, and so were his disciples, and that they conversed to each other in Greek ....

What's next?

Jesus was born on December 25?

oh waiit.....
never mind ....

 

[جوري]

Ainmazg! Enyoreve can raed waht I am wirtnig and konw waht I maen eevn tghuogh I mix up all the lttres ecxpet the frsit and lsat one!

Now imagine if a scribe forgot only one letter because he was careless... Such an error would be easily corrected.

So far the first English translation based on about 14 Greek texts still stands as very accurate.

yeah I got that cheesy email too.. glad to see you found some usage to it .. but it doesn't apply here..the problems with the bibles have nothing to do with missing text or funnily written text..

it was worth a try though, as I am sure that is how the evangies do it in Africa and other places..

all the best

 

[Aprender]

Ainmazg! Enyoreve can raed waht I am wirtnig and konw waht I maen eevn tghuogh I mix up all the lttres ecxpet the frsit and lsat one!

Now imagine if a scribe forgot only one letter because he was careless... Such an error would be easily corrected.

So far the first English translation based on about 14 Greek texts still stands as very accurate.

You're embarrassing me as a Christian with that non-thought provoking "evidence" that came out to be literal babble...come on dude. imsad If you're going to argue about something do it the right way and make us think. No point in coming onto this message board without an open mind. Fact is that the Bible has been changed. Sentences added, books added then taken away, new concepts introduced into the faith, etc. What you said added nothing to the discussion and I wonder if you even took the time to read most of the posts and the information in the links posted with them? :hmm:

 

[JPR]

My point is that most errors people talk about are scribal errors that won't change the global meaning of the message. Added sentences in the Bible are put in parenthesis to indicate what a scribe copying the text added basing himself on other scriptures. Now, if you all know about Plato, Socrates, Ceasar and other great thinkers and men that came before Jesus and that we all learn about in school, that inspire a lot of things and that we quote extansively, you should know that the most recent copies of their texts are dated between 800 and 1000 years after they died in another language. Yet no one argues about the validity of the famous sentence "veni, vidi, vici" from Julius Ceasar. By comparison, the first influencial members of the Church (before denominations, like orthodox and catholic) were quoting extensively from the NT so much so that we can re-write it just using their quotations. That's about 20 to 40 thousand different documents written less than 150 years after Jesus' death.

Now consider this, if you want to know if a person tells the whole truth, find out if they tell even the less glorious parts of the story. In this case, imagine one of the writers of the Gospels sitting and listening to Peter tell his story about how he betrayed Jesus by saying he didn't know him before he died. Who would say such a thing if he believed he denied the Savior of all Mankind ? Think about John at the end of his Gospel saying that he ran to the tomb of Jesus and got there faster than Peter. The NT is filled with counter-productive information that validates the truthness of the people who wrote it. Thibk about Paul who says he used to persecute Christians but was changed by Jesus and then went on to plant Churches all over the place.

Think about the fact that pretty much all the NT was written while people who actually saw Jesus and knew what he did were alive! How easy would it be to go and find out if what is being told is the truth?

I apologize if anyone thought that my first post was dumb but I believe this whole argumentation about if the Bible is corrupt is like trying to strike at the wind... If you're a muslim, you should try to prove me how your book is true instead of how mine is broken! Because wasn't it the snake in the Garden of Eden who asked Eve: "Did God really say...?"

 

[جوري]

I apologize if anyone thought that my first post was dumb but I believe this whole argumentation about if the Bible is corrupt is like trying to strike at the wind... If you're a muslim, you should try to prove me how your book is true instead of how mine is broken! Because wasn't it the snake in the Garden of Eden who asked Eve: "Did God really say...?"

It is unfortunate that you'd rather this cognitive conservatism than plain defects smacking you in the face. Be that as it may, No Muslim here wants to convince you of anything, this is an Islamic forum, seems the onus is on you to refute scholars including staunch biblical scholars like Bruce Mitzger of the gross alterations/subtractions/addendums, not to mention complete deviance of what preceded and proceeded.

Abraham wasn't a believer in self-immolating men god, nor did he follow a god who couldn't make up his mind of his commandments, a god with ineffectual apostles and charlatans.. so what exactly would you like us to prove to you when to us you're no better than a Hindu. At least they don't claim Ganesh is a three headed God!

all the best!

 

[Woodrow]

So far the first English translation based on about 14 Greek texts still stands as very accurate.

And that means what???????

There seems to be something lost with no preservation of the actual Aramaic Jesus(as) would have taught in, Does it not seem odd that the Early christians did not preserve the exact words as spoken by Jesus? Unless perhaps the Koin Greek texts were not written by the true followers of what Jesus(as) taught.

 

[Ramadhan]

Yet no one argues about the validity of the famous sentence "veni, vidi, vici" from Julius Ceasar.

Are you sure you want to use this comparison?
Let's see,
Julius caesar's words do not affect one bit our current life, let alone determine our eternal fate after life, hence we do not really care about authenticity and veracity of caesar's words. the same goes for plato's, socrates, etc.

Unless, you do not believe that what jesus really said or his real message affect the fate of your eternal life?

In any case, you also chose terrible, terrible comparisons that only destroy you argument:
Contrary to the claims of your lies, Caesar, aristotle and plato WROTE their literary works themselves, in bronze tablets and scrolls, and many of which still survive until now, kept by many museums and institutions in europe and minor asia.
Meanwhile, Jesus never wrote his own sayings, and nor did his disciples. So who wrote them? With the exception of saul of tarsus, not even your bible scholars know.
Hence, the sayings of caesar, plato and aristotle that we have today are more authentic than the bible.

Think about the fact that pretty much all the NT was written while people who actually saw Jesus and knew what he did were alive! How easy would it be to go and find out if what is being told is the truth?

Evidence, please.
Even all your bible scholars agree that the first NT were written in Greek and after every single disciples and persons who actually saw Jesus died.
let me ask you, do you really believe that Jesus was his actual name, along with john, matthew, mark, etc and that they were all greeks and spoke to each other in greek?
Did you know that paul/saul never even met Jesus (pbuh)? And he wrote books in the bible based on his own opinions about what Jesus said?

Please, do not spread your ignorance in an Islamic forum, wherever that may be. That would only embarrass yourself. In general, muslims know about the message of Jesus (pbuh) and the origin of christianity better than christians themselves.
Aprender was right. I am a muslim, and even I am actually quite embarrassed for your own lack of knowledge about bible.