First Corrupted Verse

[Walter]

What does "Messiah" mean to you? Please answer that first.

Hi Rpwelton:

The Bible teaches that the Messiah was sent to reconcile us to God. Having been so reconciled, we can know Him as a Father, and it becomes the responsibility of every believer who is so reconciled to encourage others.

Man was once reconciled to God in the beginning, with Adam. However, Adam’s sin destroyed that 'covenant'.

In the next covenant that God had with mankind, sinful men could not approach such a Holy God, so their sin had to be atoned. God stated that blood had to be shed in order that sin could be atoned. It was the blood of sheep and other animals that was shed. The individual actually had to kill the animal himself, which should have made him appreciate the value of the sacrifice and the damaging consequences of his sin. Unfortunately, it simply became a ritual which appeared to have little long-term effect on their behaviour.

In the new covenant that God has with mankind, Jesus was the one anointed to atoned for the sins of all men through His death. In this new covenant that mankind now has with God, we can approach God directly and ask for forgiveness. We can never earn this forgiveness, but he can graciously grant it. Once forgiven, we can become his adopted children, and cultivate a friendship with God.

Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (4:125)​

God has given Jesus the right to judge the world at the end of the age. At this time, those who rejected the Messiah will be turned away to everlasting punishment, while others will receive rewards for their good deeds done while on the Earth.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[rpwelton]

Hi Rpwelton:

The Bible teaches that the Messiah was sent to reconcile us to God. Having been so reconciled, we can know Him as a Father, and it becomes the responsibility of every believer who is so reconciled to encourage others.

Man was once reconciled to God in the beginning, with Adam. However, Adam’s sin destroyed that 'covenant'.

In the next covenant that God had with mankind, sinful men could not approach such a Holy God, so their sin had to be atoned. God stated that blood had to be shed in order that sin could be atoned. It was the blood of sheep and other animals that was shed. The individual actually had to kill the animal himself, which should have made him appreciate the value of the sacrifice and the damaging consequences of his sin. Unfortunately, it simply became a ritual which appeared to have little long-term effect on their behaviour.

In the new covenant that God has with mankind, Jesus was the one anointed to atoned for the sins of all men through His death. In this new covenant that mankind now has with God, we can approach God directly and ask for forgiveness. We can never earn this forgiveness, but he can graciously grant it. Once forgiven, we can become his adopted children, and cultivate a friendship with God.

Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (4:125)​

God has given Jesus the right to judge the world at the end of the age. At this time, those who rejected the Messiah will be turned away to everlasting punishment, while others will receive rewards for their good deeds done while on the Earth.

Regards,
Grenville

Your version sounds like a strange hybrid of Christianity and Islam. Neither Jesus nor Muhammad ever taught this concept. How can you claim to get this from the Bible and the Qur'an?

Is there a name for your particular belief?

 

[Walter]

In the "Harmony between bible and Quran" thread, one time you say Jesus(pbuh) is not God only a slave and messenger, the other time you say he is son of GOD.

NOW please explain, how can he be a son of GOD according to the Qur'an when the Quran clearly negates this point? How can this be considered a point of harmony or agreement?

And if so, care to explain to us how can one become a son of GOD?

Dear GreyKode:

The Qur’an does not address the Biblical concept of ‘Son of God’. Rather, the Qur’an rejects the idea of God having children by having a wife. The offensive idea appears to be of God having sexual intercourse with other gods, thereby compounding like the Greek and Roman gods. We must remember that Mohammed preached a departure from the polytheistic religions of the region, and a return to submitting to the One God of Abraham.

Yet they make the Jinns equals with God, though God did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (He is) above what they attribute to Him! To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (6:100–101)

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)​

To corroborate this, it is useful to see the Islamic commentaries description of the Trinity. The elaboration of 4:171 in the Tafsir al-Jalalayn notes that the Trinity referred to “God, Jesus and Jesus’ mother”. The Sunni Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs notes that the Trinity is “God, Jesus and God’s wife”. The elaboration of 5:73 in the Tafsir al-Jalalayn notes that the Trinity referred to “God, Jesus and Jesus’ mother”.

Both the Bible and the Qur’an, and Christians and Muslims, reject this concept.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Your version sounds like a strange hybrid of Christianity and Islam. Neither Jesus nor Muhammad ever taught this concept. How can you claim to get this from the Bible and the Qur'an?

Is there a name for your particular belief?

Strange hybrid Rpwelton? This is what is taught in every Christian church and explicitly stated in the Bible? Even Grace Seeker and Follower believe this. It is main-line Christianity, and it is in harmony with the principal teachings of the Qur'an.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

Consider that:

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

05/072

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

05/116

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender

04/171

masalam!

 

[rpwelton]

Strange hybrid Rpwelton? This is what is taught in every Christian church and explicitly stated in the Bible? This is Christianity, and it is in harmony with the principal teachings of the Qur'an.

Regards,
Grenville

Here is what I gather your beliefs are:

Jesus is not God nor part of a trinity- As far as I know, this is NOT taught in every church

Jesus is a blood sacrifice for all sins, but this is so we can approach God. We still need to ask for forgiveness and good deeds factor into our salvation (ie, there is no golden ticket) - I don't understand this one in light of you not believing Jesus is God. How can God send an innocent man to his death because humanity is so sinful? This kind of injustice is not in accordance with the Qur'an.

Jesus will judge the world - I believe the mainstream view is that he is seen as an "intercessor", thus the description of him being "at the right hand of God"

How is any of this in agreement with the Qur'an? Because the Qur'an uses the title Messiah? Please, the Old Testament uses this title for many prophets before Jesus.

 

[Brasco]

There is no trinity in the bible:

- Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

- John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

- John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

- Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

 

[GreyKode]

Strange hybrid Rpwelton? This is what is taught in every Christian church and explicitly stated in the Bible? Even Grace Seeker and Follower believe this. It is main-line Christianity, and it is in harmony with the principal teachings of the Qur'an.

Regards,
Grenville

Dear Grenville, I am very hardly trying to assume good intentions in your posts, but youre just not being consistent and kind of deceptive.

I've seen both Grace's and Follower's posts and anyone can tell that they disagree with you on:
1)Jesus not being God.
2)Non-biblicality of the trinity.

 

[Basit]

Salam!

please lets not belittle the prophethood of Eisa(puh). as i read from previous posts we are not paying him his due respect. jesus as i understood from teachings is no different from Adam(puh). they were created in the likeness of God when he said "Be" and so they became. He created Adam(puh) from dust and he created Eisa(puh) by his will that Mariam(puh) will bear him in her womb. he is a creation of God sent to his followers to relay the messages of God.

We should be brothers here as we have all same roots. we are all created by the one God which is Allah(swt) and so all our praises should be offered to Him only. if i am not mistaken, Jesus(puh) never told even in the bible that he is god. instead, he spoke and taught the people in his time the teachings and message of God.

Please relate on this one situation:

in one office there is one boss and he people to work for him. then you tell that one of his people is the boss here. what would you think the boss will feel? also, what will that person(the one u told to be the boss) will feel? will they be happy of what u told?


we are all creation of God, we have been sent message from God which we should follow. as a slave for God we should follow all his orders as any disobedience to what he wills, punishment shall follow. you are saying "peace be with you" when ur prayers end, same as us we are also saying "assalam alaykum wa rahmat ullah" when our sallah ends. why dont we live by what we say? peace.

have fear for the day of judgment. we are all lucky we received the scriptures through the prophets so that we will be guided as how to pass on that day. compared to other religion who are praying to false gods and barely knew of this plan of God. read the scriptures, understand it and live by it.

There is only one God. La ilaha illallah!


p.s. i think this thread is going away from the topic????? hehe

 

[rpwelton]

Salam!

please lets not belittle the prophethood of Eisa(puh). as i read from previous posts we are not paying him his due respect. jesus as i understood from teachings is no different from Adam(puh). they were created in the likeness of God when he said "Be" and so they became. He created Adam(puh) from dust and he created Eisa(puh) by his will that Mariam(puh) will bear him in her womb. he is a creation of God sent to his followers to relay the messages of God.

Brother, I have not noticed any Muslims disrespecting Jesus in this thread. What we are trying to ensure is that we represent him as a mighty messenger, but no more than that. We cannot take Jesus as being above all creation (as certain Christian members claim). He certainly is amongst the best of the creation (the prophets), but he is still part of the creation.

 

[GreyKode]

Salam!

please lets not belittle the prophethood of Eisa(puh). as i read from previous posts we are not paying him his due respect. jesus as i understood from teachings is no different from Adam(puh). they were created in the likeness of God when he said "Be" and so they became. He created Adam(puh) from dust and he created Eisa(puh) by his will that Mariam(puh) will bear him in her womb. he is a creation of God sent to his followers to relay the messages of God.

We should be brothers here as we have all same roots. we are all created by the one God which is Allah(swt) and so all our praises should be offered to Him only. if i am not mistaken, Jesus(puh) never told even in the bible that he is god. instead, he spoke and taught the people in his time the teachings and message of God.

Please relate on this one situation:

in one office there is one boss and he people to work for him. then you tell that one of his people is the boss here. what would you think the boss will feel? also, what will that person(the one u told to be the boss) will feel? will they be happy of what u told?


we are all creation of God, we have been sent message from God which we should follow. as a slave for God we should follow all his orders as any disobedience to what he wills, punishment shall follow. you are saying "peace be with you" when ur prayers end, same as us we are also saying "assalam alaykum wa rahmat ullah" when our sallah ends. why dont we live by what we say? peace.

have fear for the day of judgment. we are all lucky we received the scriptures through the prophets so that we will be guided as how to pass on that day. compared to other religion who are praying to false gods and barely knew of this plan of God. read the scriptures, understand it and live by it.

There is only one God. La ilaha illallah!


p.s. i think this thread is going away from the topic????? hehe

Jazak ALLAH kheir brother basit, I couldn't agree more, I was thinking exactly the same thing, prophet Isa(pbuh) is among the best of ALLAH's creatures as all the messengers are, we must give them their due respect.

But we must no forget that we are ummah wasat we do not exceed in such matters, ALLAH(swt) is the most exalted and the only one worthy of worship.

 

[Walter]

Consider that: 05/072, 05/116, 04/171

masalam!

Hi Brasco:

We are in agreement. Stop pushing against an open door.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Grenville, I am very hardly trying to assume good intentions in your posts, but youre just not being consistent and kind of deceptive.

I've seen both Grace's and Follower's posts and anyone can tell that they disagree with you on:
1)Jesus not being God.
2)Non-biblicality of the trinity.

Dear GreyKode:

That is a slanderous and untrue accusation. Please examine the post to which you were referring (posts 141 and your reply 142). That post did not mention the trinity, nor the contentious issue of the nature of Jesus’, and it was that post which I clearly (not deceptively) stated was ‘main-line’ Christianity.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Basit]

Just one mesagge:

We can say right now, I am right, you are wrong! then poeple may believe you may be right, others might say you are wrong. Then again you will accept what you told to be the right one. But in the end, it is God who will judge between the words we speak. Between the actions we intend and the actions we actually did.



p.s.: the messengers of God should not be addressed as messengers only, they messengers of God. they are chosen ones among all the people in their time by God himself. The words they taught are not products of their own intellect but the message of God. Jesus(puh) did not die on the cross, God lifted him up in the heavens before they could have arrested him. He, together with all the chosen ones shall come again on the day of judgment when God will judge between the living and the dead.

 

[Basit]

Brother, I have not noticed any Muslims disrespecting Jesus in this thread. What we are trying to ensure is that we represent him as a mighty messenger, but no more than that. We cannot take Jesus as being above all creation (as certain Christian members claim). He certainly is amongst the best of the creation (the prophets), but he is still part of the creation.

salam!

sorry if i am mistaken, it is my own mistake.imsad its just that they taught us before we should give our respects everytime we speak the names of the chosen people of Allah(swt). sorry.

salam alaykum wa rahmat ullah!

 

[GreyKode]

Dear GreyKode:

That is a slanderous and untrue accusation. Please examine the post to which you were referring (posts 141 and your reply 142). That post did not mention the trinity, nor the contentious issue of the nature of Jesus’, and it was that post which I clearly (not deceptively) stated was ‘main-line’ Christianity.

Regards,
Grenville

My dear friend Grenville, I sincerely didn't mean any offense, indeed you didn't mention those issues in your discussion with rpwelton, nevertheless both Follower and Grace DO disagree with you on the two points that i mentioned that ARE "Main-stream" christianity.
Besides, you didn't answer the questions my previous post(all of them).
Peace.

 

[Brasco]

To sum this up, the whole christianity is corrupted! how can they call themselves Christians!! They gotta be Christ-like!! :S

 

[Walter]

Hi Rpwelton:

Let me respond to each of your claims.

Here is what I gather your beliefs are:
Jesus is not God nor part of a trinity- As far as I know, this is NOT taught in every church

Like GreyKode, you are mixing up posts, responding to the wrong ones, and appending what I have written to something that you have written. That is not the way Rpwelton. Please desist.

I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence in the Bible for Christian religious tradition to make a Doctrine (or a mandatory belief) that Jesus is God. Therefore, I believe what the Bible explicitly states.

“but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31)​

Jesus is a blood sacrifice for all sins, but this is so we can approach God. We still need to ask for forgiveness and good deeds factor into our salvation (ie, there is no golden ticket) - I don't understand this one in light of you not believing Jesus is God. How can God send an innocent man to his death because humanity is so sinful? This kind of injustice is not in accordance with the Qur'an.

No. Good deeds do not factor into our salvation. We are saved by God’s grace, and God’s grace alone. The Bible is clear.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)​

Both the Bible and the Qur’an teach that forgiveness is offered to those who believe, repent, and ask God to be forgiven. No good deeds are necessary for salvation.

Bible: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Qur’an: But ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn unto Him: For my Lord is indeed full of mercy and loving-kindness. (11:90; See also 4:17; 25:71; 42:25; 7:153; 19:60; 20:82)​

However, once we have believed, then both the Bible and the Qur’an teach that rewards are for those who do good deeds.

Bible: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11–15)

Qur’an: To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath God promised forgiveness and a great reward. (5:9)​

You do not understand the details of how God could cause the innocent to die for the guilty. Neither do I. It is one of the mysteries that will be revealed at the end of the age. If you require to know all things before you believe, then you will never believe, for only God knows all things. However, He has revealed some things to us.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)​

Jesus will judge the world - I believe the mainstream view is that he is seen as an "intercessor", thus the description of him being "at the right hand of God"

No Rpwelton. The scriptures are clear.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22)​

How is any of this in agreement with the Qur'an? Because the Qur'an uses the title Messiah? Please, the Old Testament uses this title for many prophets before Jesus.

Both the Bible and the Qur’an identify Jesus as the Messiah.

Bible: The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." (John 4:25–26)

Qur’an: When the angels said: O Mary! Lo! God giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). (3:45)​

To understand such Biblical concepts, the reader of the Qur’an is directed to the revelation sent before. Here it is again.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

Why do you quote Paul? He never met Jesus (pbuh)!! nor did he ever talk to a disciple!!

 

[Walter]

My dear friend Grenville, I sincerely didn't mean any offense, indeed you didn't mention those issues in your discussion with rpwelton, nevertheless both Follower and Grace DO disagree with you on the two points that i mentioned that ARE "Main-stream" christianity.
Besides, you didn't answer the questions my previous post(all of them).
Peace.

Hi GreyKode:

Yes, Follower and Grace Seeker believe that Jesus is God and the concept of the trinity. However, the Biblical evidence for these concepts is weak. As you have admitted, I was not referring to these two issues in the context of 'main-line' Christianity.

What other questions were you referring to?

Regards,
Grenville