First Corrupted Verse

[Walter]

Why do you quote Paul? He never met Jesus (pbuh)!! nor did he ever talk to a disciple!!

Dear Brasco:

For your information, Paul claimed to have seen and talked to Jesus, and he certainly spoke with many of Jesus’ original Disciples.

Brasco, trying to convince a Christian or a Muslim that their principal text is not authentic is really a waste of time. Regardless of the evidence that I can present to you, you will never reject the Qur’an as being authentic, and similarly with me. So why bother playing that game.

Let us, as long as we are corresponding, assume that both Books are authentic. If we happen to find any conflicting verses, then let us examine them honestly and see whether any conflict actually exists. Let me suggest that you read the thread “Harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an”.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

one god in 3 persons:

"For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)


Jesus (pbuh) devine:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:1)

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)

 

[GreyKode]

Hi GreyKode:

Yes, Follower and Grace Seeker believe that Jesus is God and the concept of the trinity. However, the Biblical evidence for these concepts is weak. As you have admitted, I was not referring to these two issues in the context of 'main-line' Christianity.

What other questions were you referring to?

Regards,
Grenville

For instance, How should this son of GOD differ in any way from other prophets/messengers? Should he be worshipped?

 

[Brasco]

Dear Brasco:

For your information, Paul claimed to have seen and talked to Jesus, and he certainly spoke with many of Jesus’ original Disciples.

Brasco, trying to convince a Christian or a Muslim that their principal text is not authentic is really a waste of time. Regardless of the evidence that I can present to you, you will never reject the Qur’an as being authentic, and similarly with me. So why bother playing that game.

Let us, as long as we are corresponding, assume that both Books are authentic. If we happen to find any conflicting verses, then let us examine them honestly and see whether any conflict actually exists. Let me suggest that you read the thread “Harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an”.

Regards,
Grenville

He saw himself in a vision with Jesus (pbuh)!! (after killing a thousands of christians) and he never talked to the 12 disciples

On the way to berlin hitler saw himself in a vision with moses (pbuh), all jews are following him

 

[Walter]

one god in 3 persons:

"For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)


Jesus (pbuh) devine:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:1)

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)

Hi Brasco:

Most of these are dealt with in the thread "Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?" Please review the answers there.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

Hi Brasco:

Most of these are dealt with in the thread "Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?" Please review the answers there.

Regards,
Grenville

This means, you accept that the bible is corrupted?? Did jesus (pbuh) call himself a christian?

 

[Walter]

He saw himself in a vision with Jesus (pbuh)!! (after killing a thousands of christians) and he never talked to the 12 disciples

OK Brasco:

Here is the evidence.

1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. (Acts 15:1-5)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

These are books written by paul, of course he would say that!! :bump1:

 

[Walter]

This means, you accept that the bible is corrupted?? Did jesus (pbuh) call himself a christian?

No Brasco. The Bible is not corrupted. Neither is the Qur'an. It is our Christian and Islamic religious traditions, which are in conflict with the Bible and the Qur'an respectively, that are corrupted.

Also, no, Jesus did not call Himself a Christian.

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Acts 11:26b)​

Brasco. Clearly you have never read the Bible. Perhaps you should read it before commenting, so confidently, about what it contains.

Also, Paul did not write the book of Acts. Good grief.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Brasco]

No Brasco. The Bible is not corrupted. Neither is the Qur'an. It is our Christian and Islamic religious traditions, which are in conflict with the Bible and the Qur'an respectively, that are corrupted.

Also, no, Jesus did not call Himself a Christian.

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Acts 11:26b)​

Brasco. Clearly you have never read the Bible. Perhaps you should read it before commenting, so confidently, about what it contains.

Also, Paul did not write the book of Acts. Good grief.

Regards,
Grenville

I read it!! but I do not accept what paul wrote

 

[Brasco]

when did luke write the book? before or after paul?

 

[rpwelton]

Grenville, if the Qur'an and the Bible are so in tuned with each other, then why aren't you a Muslim? Surely you recognize the Prophethood of Muhammad, so why stop short at Christianity?

 

[Brasco]

Jesus (pbuh) never knew paul the two men never once met. The disciples who knew Jesus best have left no writings behind them explaining how Jesus (pbuh) seemed to them or what they considered his mission to have been.


The apostle paul founder of christianity

 

[BlackMamba]

Grenville, if the Qur'an and the Bible are so in tuned with each other, then why aren't you a Muslim? Surely you recognize the Prophethood of Muhammad, so why stop short at Christianity?

Yes, after talking with Grenville on his thread about Quran/Bible harmony, I wonder why he is not Muslim. If you believe that the bible supports Muhammad (saw), then why not accept it and become Muslim. If you think the Quran and Bible say the same thing, then the Quran says the only religion worthy in front of Allah is Islam in surah Ali-Imran.

Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (3:19)

I know we're putting you on the spot, but I want to hear what you say about that

 

[جوري]

Dear Gossamer:

Who said anything about accepting Jesus as a God? The Biblical support for that teaching is quite weak. Apparently, you have not been following the thread “Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?”

With that barrier out of the way, do you accept Jesus as the Messiah as described in the Bible and the Qur’an?

Regards,
Grenville

No, I am not following, however you must have missed my post on the meaning of the messiah :
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]by Ahmad Deedat

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.
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I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Genesis 31:13[/FONT]​

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If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 4:3[/FONT]​

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And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 8:10[/FONT]​

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...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Samuel 2:10[/FONT]​

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Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Isaiah 45:1[/FONT]​

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Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ezekiel 28:14[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Reference: http://www.islam101.com/religions/deedat/christ_in_islam4.htm [/FONT]
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there is no going back to christian understanding and references when one has embraced Islam.. I can't claim to understand what it is you are hoping to gain as most of these are exercises in futility in my opinion, we can simply agree that our religions are at odds, and try to co-exist peacefully knowing that fact!

 

[Walter]

Grenville, if the Qur'an and the Bible are so in tuned with each other, then why aren't you a Muslim? Surely you recognize the Prophethood of Muhammad, so why stop short at Christianity?

Yes, after talking with Grenville on his thread about Quran/Bible harmony, I wonder why he is not Muslim. If you believe that the bible supports Muhammad (saw), then why not accept it and become Muslim. If you think the Quran and Bible say the same thing, then the Quran says the only religion worthy in front of Allah is Islam in surah Ali-Imran.

Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (3:19)

I know we're putting you on the spot, but I want to hear what you say about that

Dear Rpwelton and Shakoor:

If we understand Islam to be ‘submission to God’, and Muslims to be ‘those who submit to God’, then all who submit to God are Muslims who follow Islam. Of course there is only One God. The Qur’an makes it clear that Islam did not start with Mohammed.

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)​

The problem is: what do you understand Islam to be? We can either submit to God, or we can submit to our religious traditions. Jesus was angry with the religious leaders of His day for misleading people into submitting to Jewish religious traditions which conflicted with God’s commands.

“He [Jesus] answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
(Matthew 15:3-9)​

Therefore:

• Do I submit to God? Yes.
• Do I submit to Christian religious tradition? Only when it is consistent with the explicit teachings of the Bible. Please note that I have found that these teachings are in harmony with the principal teachings of the Qur’an.
• Do I submit to Islamic religious tradition? No.

You must also decide whether you will submit to God or to Islamic religious tradition. Please note that the Jewish people were blind to the fact that their religious leaders were misleading them. That is why it is so important to examine your religious traditions to see whether they are actually true and supported by the Qur'an, for Truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[rpwelton]

Yes, Islam means to submit to the Will of God. But what does that mean?

It means you follow all of His prophets and the Message that he sent with them. This of course means you have to follow Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in addition to the ones that came before him.

If we follow Muhammad, then we know he never taught anything about atonement, nor Jesus judging the world, nor Jesus being crucified. In fact, the Qur'an tells us the exact opposite is true:

""That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." (4: 156-159)

So clearly to be a Muslim you cannot believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross, and he certainly did not die for anyone's sins.

This not just a matter of "Islamic tradition". If you read the Qur'an, you will find none of these Christian beliefs!

The Qur'an also does not confirm the Bible in entirety; in fact it talks about how the people given charge of the Torah and Injeel (Law and Gospel) changed it with their own hands. Therefor the entire Bible is not scripture, as it has been altered by man.

Islam is not a new religion; it is the religion of all the prophets and has existed since the time of Adam. However, you cannot take the Qur'an as a whole, believe it is true, and still be a Christian. This is a grave contradiction.

 

[Walter]

Dear Rpwelton:

Let me respond to each of your claims.

Yes, Islam means to submit to the Will of God. But what does that mean?

It means you follow all of His prophets and the Message that he sent with them. This of course means you have to follow Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in addition to the ones that came before him.

We must use a fair degree of common sense, but yes, we should follow them when they claimed to speak for God and their words are relevant to us.

If we follow Muhammad, then we know he never taught anything about atonement, nor Jesus judging the world, nor Jesus being crucified.

Mohammed did refer his followers to believe the Gospel and the Prophets who came before. Therefore, Mohammed taught them indirectly.

In fact, the Qur'an tells us the exact opposite is true:

""That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." (4: 156-159)

So clearly to be a Muslim you cannot believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross, and he certainly did not die for anyone's sins.

Please read “Harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an”. The verse explicitly states that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews. Both the Bible and the historical record agree.

This not just a matter of "Islamic tradition". If you read the Qur'an, you will find none of these Christian beliefs!

Please read “Brothers Kept Apart”. The teachings are detailed.

The Qur'an also does not confirm the Bible in entirety; in fact it talks about how the people given charge of the Torah and Injeel (Law and Gospel) changed it with their own hands. Therefore the entire Bible is not scripture, as it has been altered by man.

Please provide a verse in the Qur’an which shows that the Bible has been corrupted or changed. I have found several verses which showed that the religious leaders’ behaviour was corrupt, not the manuscripts themselves.

Islam is not a new religion; it is the religion of all the prophets and has existed since the time of Adam. However, you cannot take the Qur'an as a whole, believe it is true, and still be a Christian. This is a grave contradiction.

That is classic Islamic religious tradition completely unsupported by the Qur’an. It is promoted by Islamic religious leaders and blindly believed by adherents, but it is entirely wrong since it conflicts with the Qur’an.

Lo! Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians—whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right—surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:62)​

Rpwelton, the choice is yours. You can believe the Qur’an, or you can believe your religious traditions which conflict with the Qur’an. You decide.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Basit]

Just a comment Mr. Grenville :X

Submission to Allah(swt) means to follow all that he wills and all that he wants us to do. He has sent the prophets to guide us on how to follow what he wants. In submission to Him we should not be selective on which law, commandment or prophet we should believe into. We are just but slaves of Allah(swt) therefore we should believe and follow all that he commands, which was relayed to us through all his chosen ones(peace and blessings be upon them all).Now, i.e. as a Jew, you would follow Moses'(puh) and his Torah only and would reject Jesus and Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon them). This would not be called submission because you will follow only some of what he wants you to do and rejects the other orders. In Islam, we are taught on how to do things, all things, in every aspects of living. how to take a bath, how to eat, how to pray........and so on. and this is how Allah(swt) want us to do things in life, an order from him through the prophet Muhammad(pbuh)



Daw'ah: Please pray on time of Sallah brothers. Dont delay your prayers because of other matters like playing, chatting, net surfing or even with the forums. We can only delay our prayers when we are hungry or when our mother needs us. Dont let shaytan stop you from praying on time.

Assalam Alaykum!

 

[Hugo]

Yes, Islam means to submit to the Will of God. But what does that mean? It means you follow all of His prophets and the Message that he sent with them. This of course means you have to follow Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in addition to the ones that came before him.

If we follow Muhammad, then we know he never taught anything about atonement, nor Jesus judging the world, nor Jesus being crucified. In fact, the Qur'an tells us the exact opposite is true:

Islam is not a new religion; it is the religion of all the prophets and has existed since the time of Adam. However, you cannot take the Qur'an as a whole, believe it is true, and still be a Christian. This is a grave contradiction.

I have difficulty following your logic here. Jesus was a prophet according to Islamic teaching, he came before prophet Mohammed and he taught in the gospels about atonement so is the Gospel New Testament Jesus the one you are talking about?