For Muslims: Our attitudes towards Kuffars

MustafaMc said:
Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?
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What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?
 
Grace Seeker said:
How can I trust you on this? You say you were once a Christian. But as Muslim think that no one who is a true Muslim would ever leave Islam, so I can't imagine anyone that had every had a personal relationship with Christ would walk away from it. You may have been a "member" of some Christian church, even had warm "fuzzy feelings" as AKK describes them. But faith in Christ and the peace that comes from giving one's life over to him is soooo much more. I believe if you had really known that, you would never have looked for or been satisfied with the type of peace you find elsewhere. I don't think you are even in a position to evaluate, let alone pass judgment on, whether or not I have a clue. That you think you can answers the question of this thread regarding Muslim attitudes twoard Kuffars -- they are narcissistic.


And here is another part of why I say that:

The ego of the narcissist is so big that he thinks it is all about him. It isn't.

Consider that God himself tolerates falsehood. Before you jump down my throat, look at the world. There is much falsehood. God has the power to change it all in the blink of an eye, but he doesn't. Rather, God allows human free will to act. To act even in destructive, disruptive, and dispicable ways. Why? Why when if he has the power and is intolerable of such falsehoods does he still allow it to exist? I suggest that there are only two answers. Either (a) God is actually intolerant of these existing falsehood, but doesn't have the power to do anything about it, or (b) God has the power, but is willing to tolerate them, at least for a time, until such time that he brings an end to human history as we know it and set all things right once again. Since I don't believe God to be impotent, I tend to think that God is therefore tolerant.

Tolerance is different than accepting. God doesn't accept the deviations of falsehood and unrighteousness that exist in the world. But he does tolerate them, showing grace toward them, at least long enough so that he might work to effect a change in them and return them to truth and righteousness. One must have a degree of tolerance, if one is to hope to make a change in that which is false and convert it to that which is true. I think that Muhammad showed considerable tolerance on many occassion (though of course not all), today's Muslim would be wise to learn and emulate that aspect of the prophet (pbuh).
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Graceseeker, before throwing around words such as tolerate it would help to know what it actually means.:thumbs_up

Tolerate: To allow (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) to exist or occur without interference

1. God has said that he will eliminate the other religions sooner or later because they are deviant and falsehood is bound to perish so that scratches the " God allows them to exist" line of thought.

2. God has certainly not let the other religions flourish without interference and the Prophets and punishments of the people of old are testament to that

You assume that them not blinking out of existence and generally existing to this day is a sign of tolerance. I disagree, though I cant think of a word for it right now, it just doesnt match up to the definition of tolerance. There is probably a better word out there:rollseyes.

I fail to see how it is narcissistic to hold my religion, which I believe to be true above all others. If you knew for a fact that religion A was true and God given you would feel that it would be superior to every other false one. hence I feel that it is superior. I have not been convinced by other religions and so havent you i guess but it is not narcissistic to hold that God's given religion is superior to the deviant ones out there.

P.s: My posts today have been kinda overzealous and blunt and am sorry for any insults I have made. Sometimes you get too into this stuff:peace:
 
Aurora said:
My crisis of faith had nothing to do with culture. I just wasn't convinced by Islam anymore. There wasn't any evidence or what I felt to be compelling argument for.


Feelings can fade.

I've never quite understood why Allah would put seals on the hearts of people or why He would guide some and not others.
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1. For the evidence, you should look harder, there are mountains.
2. Your seals on people's hearts question has been discussed many many times by scholars who have given extensive answers to this.
3. feelings can certainly fade, true conviction will NEVER fade
Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse. 8:23

It seems to me that you had a couple of questions and did not properly look for the answers. Now ask yourself, if these answers were so plainly visible, why didn't you find them? Islam lacked nothing, your seriousness in finding the truth is what was lacking.

here you go, the "seal" part I think you were referring to.

http://discovering-islam.blogspot.com/2007/12/allah-have-sealed-heart-of-kuffar.html

that took me less than a minute to find.


It is a common mistake of the kuffar to think that just because they cannot answer a question, there is no answer.

Go ask an imam your questions. If your questions are so faith shattering, they will not have an answer. If you don't, you are not serious and are fooling yourself.
 
MustafaMc said:
Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?
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She is the one who said that she didn't experience peace within Christianity. Since that peace is part and parcel of the Christian experience then it would be true for her that she didn't have the full Christian experience. I can't say for others, and I am sorry if it sounded like I was.

I'll also be interested in your answer to Keltoi's question.
 
Keltoi said:
What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?
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In the end, our feelings and opinions hinge on the question of validity. When we meet God we can see who in fact was wrong and who's feelings were misguided.
 
Keltoi said:
What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?
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I have never known one, but I would like to know what he found in the other faith that he was missing in Islam. If he became a Christian, I would also want to know if he ever REALLY believed that it was disbelief in the Oneness of Allah to say that Jesus was the Son of God and then why he now believed that Jesus was at the same time Son of God and God in the flesh.
 
AntiKarateKid said:
1. For the evidence, you should look harder, there are mountains.
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I've looked and I haven't found anything to convince me. If there really is evidence why has God made it so hard for me to find?

2. Your seals on people's hearts question has been discussed many many times by scholars who have given extensive answers to this.
3. feelings can certainly fade, true conviction will NEVER fade
Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse. 8:23
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I don't see why conviction in a certain belief cannot fade either. When I was younger I believed in Islam with certainty. I thought it was an amazing religion and I was happy to be raised Muslim in an Islamic household. I never thought I would ever lose faith, but it happened.

It seems to me that you had a couple of questions and did not properly look for the answers. Now ask yourself, if these answers were so plainly visible, why didn't you find them? Islam lacked nothing, your seriousness in finding the truth is what was lacking.
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If I had a question that troubled me I would normally go to Islamonline or Islam-qa to get my answers, and most of the time I got a satisfactory answer. I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.

here you go, the "seal" part I think you were referring to.

http://discovering-islam.blogspot.com/2007/12/allah-have-sealed-heart-of-kuffar.html

that took me less than a minute to find.
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So only those kafirs that Allah knows will never accept Islam anyway have their hearts sealed? If that is the case then Allah getting involved and sealing their hearts serves no purpose. It is a completely pointless exercise.

As far as I'm aware Zakir Naik isn't an Islamic scholar, so do you know of any scholars that agree with his view?

It is a common mistake of the kuffar to think that just because they cannot answer a question, there is no answer.

Go ask an imam your questions. If your questions are so faith shattering, they will not have an answer. If you don't, you are not serious and are fooling yourself.
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Not having a satisfactory answer to a question about Islam is not the main reason I'm not a Muslim. It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.
 
Aurora said:
It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.
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Since you don't believe in Allah, do you believe in another Deity?
I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.
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If you don't believe in Allah, why are you concerned about burning in Hell for eternity? I know some who believe in God, but not in life after death; however, you are the first I have known that believe the reverse. Do you care to explain what you believe?
 
MustafaMc said:
I have never known one, but I would like to know what he found in the other faith that he was missing in Islam. If he became a Christian, I would also want to know if he ever REALLY believed that it was disbelief in the Oneness of Allah to say that Jesus was the Son of God and then why he now believed that Jesus was at the same time Son of God and God in the flesh.
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So in essence you would be raising doubt as to whether this person ever "really" believed in what the Qu'ran says. Why is that not just as much of a "cop out" as you accused Christians of making?
 
Keltoi said:
So in essence you would be raising doubt as to whether this person ever "really" believed in what the Qu'ran says. Why is that not just as much of a "cop out" as you accused Christians of making?
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I would ask the question and then I would listen to his answer and then his explanation for the change in his faith. I would want to know why he now believed that a man was God in the flesh when it is diametrically opposed to the Islamic faith. I would not presume to know the answer or his reasons for changing as Christians have presumed of me.

I was a Christian and I believed what the Baptist (upbringing) and Church of Christ (college) church taught me, including that Jesus (as) was the Son of God (astighfir'Allah) and that he died on the cross for my sins. Yes, I had accepted him as my Savior and his cleansing blood as the only expiation for my sins. I read the Qur'an and my faith changed over Christmas break 1981. I rejected the faith of my upbringing and I accepted a new one. I am still striving to become one who submits his will to that of Allah and I pray that I die not, but as a Muslim.
 
MustafaMc said:
Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?
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Yes, you hear it on this forum all the time. Very "convenient" indeed ;).

IMHO, no one size fits all! That different people convert in different directions should be an indication of that.

In fact, this "one size fits all" attitude scares me a bit to be honest, because people who believe that are often the same as those who are incapable of tolerating these different choices.
 
I think one hears that for several reasons. Some valid, some not so much.

First, Baptist theology includes a belief in eternal security. That is that they believe once saved, always saved. So, when they see a person who they think of as a Christian who is fallen into sin or walks away from their faith (not just those who convert to something else, but the larger numnber that simply drop out from practicing their faith) they refuse to recognize them as backslidden Christians, but say that they must not have been true believers or genuine Christians to begin with.

Though I don't believe in eternal secuity, and recognize that there are indeed backslidden Christians, sometimes I do wonder what an individual's faith was based on. When I hear people saying that they were once a Christian, but got tired of watching so many hypocrites in the church. (Something that can be a genuine problem.) And so they walk away because of that. It does make me wonder if they had a relationship with Jesus or not. Because I can't understand how they would deny their own relationship with him based on the failings of others. For me those two ideas are incongruous.

Likewise, I hear people who tell me that they were raised in the Christian Church, and feel themselves quite knowledgable about it, but have rejected it because they can't believe in a god who would XYZ. And I'm wondering where they ever learned that God was that type of god, for it is completely foreign to my understanding of the god of Christianity. I wouldn't believe in that sort of god either. I don't blame them for rejecting it, but I can hardly say that what they are rejecting is the true God of Christiantiy, but something else.

And then there are those who from all that I can tell truly did believe, accept the faith, practice it, and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I had a friend in high school who I thought this described. And then one day Karen suddenly became a different person. Years later, after college, she invited me to her wedding, and I attended, but I hardly recognized here anymore. I'm not going to say that she never was a Christian, but by this time in her life she had pretty much turned her back on all that she had held sacred before. Even in the exchange of vows at her wedding it was clear that she was rejecting the faith she had formerly held. I continued to wish her joy and happiness, which she seemed to have found with her husband. But for me the occassion was painful, because I could tell she was no longer the friend I had once known.

So, I admit that it happens. But I confess I do not understand it. I don't know how anyone could walk away from the peace and happiness that I know can be found in Jesus Christ. For Jesus gives meaning to life in ways I have never heard anyone talk about outside of the Christian faith. Not that others don't find any meaning in life, but that what Christ offers is so sublime that the peace offered with it is truly surpassing all understanding unless you have experienced it yourself.

Maybe Rose is right that I don't have a clue, for it seems incomprehensible to me that one would voluntarily turn one's back on that. But I know that people do. And it is their free choice. But I hurt for each of them as I do my friend who gave up the joy I know she once had. I wonder if Karen and all the others who turn away from Christ, even in the midst of genuine faith, have somehow missed out on tapping into the pure joy that can be found in knowing Christ, for I personally cannot conceive of ever choosing to abandon it. Still, I pray that whatever other joy and peace they find will be fulfilling for them, even if I cannot imagine how it would be more or better than what they had experienced before.
 
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Grace Seeker said:
So, I admit that it happens. But I confess I do not understand it. I don't know how anyone could walk away from the peace and happiness that I know can be found in Jesus Christ. For Jesus gives meaning to life in ways I have never heard anyone talk about outside of the Christian faith. Not that others don't find any meaning in life, but that what Christ offers is so sublime that the peace offered with it is truly surpassing all understanding unless you have experienced it yourself.

Maybe Rose is right that I don't have a clue, for it seems incomprehensible to me that one would voluntarily turn one's back on that. But I know that people do. And it is their free choice. But I hurt for each of them as I do my friend who gave up the joy I know she once had. I wonder if Karen and all the others who turn away from Christ, even in the midst of genuine faith, have somehow missed out on tapping into the pure joy that can be found in knowing Christ, for I personally cannot conceive of ever choosing to abandon it. Still, I pray that whatever other joy and peace they find will be fulfilling for them, even if I cannot imagine how it would be more or better than what they had experienced before.
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Those are truly moving words, Grace Seeker.
It echoes very much how I feel too ... but I couldn't have put it any better myself.

Peace to you :)
 
Aurora said:
I've looked and I haven't found anything to convince me. If there really is evidence why has God made it so hard for me to find?


I don't see why conviction in a certain belief cannot fade either. When I was younger I believed in Islam with certainty. I thought it was an amazing religion and I was happy to be raised Muslim in an Islamic household. I never thought I would ever lose faith, but it happened.


If I had a question that troubled me I would normally go to Islamonline or Islam-qa to get my answers, and most of the time I got a satisfactory answer. I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want 1to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.


So only those kafirs that Allah knows will never accept Islam anyway have their hearts sealed? If that is the case then Allah getting involved and sealing their hearts serves no purpose. It is a completely pointless exercise.

As far as I'm aware Zakir Naik isn't an Islamic scholar, so do you know of any scholars that agree with his view?


Not having a satisfactory answer to a question about Islam is not the main reason I'm not a Muslim. It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.
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1. It is pointless in your mind. The act of sealing is a punishment for them. Hell is not Allah's only form of punishment.
2. As far I I know, he isnt a lone speaker, I am certain that there are scholars assisting in the formation of these responses.
3. Again, you give a blanket statement taht it doesnt convince you. Let me tell you this, if you can't find anything convincing in Islam, or cant think of a reason, you were an improper Muslim in the first place. A true Muslim would be able to support his beliefs but you look like you examined that "fuzz feeling" inside of you and found "Islam wanting" yet the sad truth is that your understanding if Islam was found wanting.


Juvenile questions such as " why was a seal put upon them" have been thoroughly answered by many people. I brought up one asnwer and you cannot point out any specific thing in any scholar's response taht you find wrong.

By the way, good job leaving Islam without taking your questions to a scholar in person and instead to site on the internet. You are truly looking arent you? :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up
 
Here we go. You say you don't understand what the Quran is saying. Here is an excellent article I have found WITH PROOFS from the Quran explaining the details of this.

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/destiny.htm

In the end you have isolated one verse from the Quran without considering its relationship with other verses on the subject. A poor effort on your part and a common tactic among disbelievers.:cry:
 
AKK, how is what you are saying to Aurora any different than saying that she was never a true Muslim to begin with?
 
Grace Seeker said:
Ah. Wonder if that could ever be true of those who convert/revert from Christianity to Islam?
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Maybe, maybe not :) but someone who has reverted to Islam has been totally convinced of it's truth with factual evidence rather than a peaceful experience :)
 
RoseGold said:
Maybe, maybe not :) but someone who has reverted to Islam has been totally convinced of it's truth with factual evidence rather than a peaceful experience :)
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And I wonder if those who convert to Christianity from Islam might similary see themselves as totally convinced of its truth with factual evidence as well?

(Not that I am asking you to agree that such a conversion was indeed based on factual evidence, but that you might agree that the convert would see it that way.)
 
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