Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

[Umar001]

Nothing can be altered without basing it on something... the degree of truth is strong in the original texts of the Hebrew Bible which was destroyed by Constantine... it was revised to serve his political ambitions... Using the Religion of the followers of Eassauh AS at that time made sense in his pursuits of power.

If you have read the bible in it's entirety and reflected on it... with a clear understanding of the Natural Moral Law... you will be able to see the consistency of the nature of Eassah AS.

One way of knowing if it really was Easauh AS (Jesus Christ) who said it and not the writers of the revised and altered Bible... is to check if it doesn't contradict the Qur'an and Islam. Since the Injil is supposed to confirm the Qur'an - and this is according to the Qur'an itself.

So if a verse in the Bible confirms and supports what is in the Qur'an... then it should be considered some of the truths which constantine and Paul wasn't able to filter out or cannot filter out.

Moreover, it doesn't really matter much anymore if it was really Eassauh AS who said it or not... what matters really is what was said. We have to evaluate, weight, analyse and reflect on the words that was supposedly said. If it doesnt contradict, if it confirms, if it's consistent... then it's right. If it creates confussion... then there's something wrong with it.

We can also say that the present day bibles are scrambled messages of the original text... the right way of reading it is to read between the lines... much the same manner a computer would be reading or descrambling a coded or encrypted message.

Much of the truth and conviction comes after reflecting on what we read and of course after asking for divine guidance.

I think that this has a whole mass of wishful thinking. If something agrees with Islam then I agree it has the potential of being the words of Eesa, but we cannot say they are. Just like if a hadith agrees with the Qur'an then that hadith has the potential to be the word of the Prophet, but other factors play a part for us to be sure, such as the chain of narrators, a factor which is missing in the Biblical writings.

 

[believer]

I think that this has a whole mass of wishful thinking. If something agrees with Islam then I agree it has the potential of being the words of Eesa, but we cannot say they are. Just like if a hadith agrees with the Qur'an then that hadith has the potential to be the word of the Prophet, but other factors play a part for us to be sure, such as the chain of narrators, a factor which is missing in the Biblical writings.

When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.

The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.

 

[NoName55]

^^then it begs the Question; why is there any need for Quraan?

wa salam alaikum

 

[believer]

^^then it begs the Question; why is there any need for Quraan?

wa salam alaikum

Why not? ...

Although Islam somewhat shares the attributes of God... like it is the beginning and it is the end... Alpha and Omega nature.... since it has been the religion of every born child... in the end when one dies... if he dies with Islam as his state of being... then he is saved. Islam cannot attain it's full perfection if man or humanity was not ready for it.

In the same manner... that you cannot give Nuclear Physics books to a Kindergarten student.

Man has to receive the scriptures according to the development of covilization and human understanding.

In the early days of humanity's development... people doesn't have a clear understanding of what is a natural moral law or what is the common good concept. Thus, the introduction of the Torrah is fitting to have a regulation, law and order.

Now that man is OK with such orders and guidelines... Man still need to be educated with how to live humanely... and the Injeel is sent basically as an enlightenment for Man to live humanely.

Of course, still a portion of humanity is stuborne, simply because they are weak in spirit and are easily succeptible to the suggestions of the enemy to be arrogant and proud...

After humanity has received the Law and Order...(Torrah - OT) humanity lived more civilly... but still Man needed a follow up to develop and turn to the right way.

Then, the time is come for man to recieve Divine Guidance and a Way to Salvation... along with the torrah, saboor (psalms of David) and songs of solomon and along with all the other books brought by other prophets.... Man was able to extablish civilization inspired with moralities.

But still, Islam isn't yet perfected to this stage... and a large portion of humanity is still transgressing by practicing Shirk... so it is but appropriate that the Qur'an come as the final Testament for Mankind... like a graduate study program. The Qur'an is the final blocks of the building... like the crowning glory of a house - the roof over the building.

Like a house with an imperfect foundation (Torrah)... and more imperfect walls and divisions.... (Injil)... the Roof must at least be leak proof which protects all the other parts of the house underneath it.... (Qur'an).

I can't help but use these comparisons in order to explain my limited reflection and wisdom on the a divine rationale behind the subject.

Since Man is created weak... therefore, it is not expected for Man to be able to really absorb and comprehend the reasons why God decreed things as they are. We are made for a purpose and the purpose is not to investigate beyond what we can or what we shouldn't be investigating in the first place.

It might just defeat the purpose.

Salaamualaikum Brother.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it .

We use Bible to disprove the Bible - those passages that obviously create the paradox in the Christian definition of faith.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.

The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.

just a slight correction akhi - 'Isa alayhis-salam wasn't sent to all humanity, but only to his own people. In fact, this is also said in the Bible: "...do not unto the Gentiles...etc."

 

[NoName55]

Like a house with an imperfect foundation (Torrah)... and more imperfect walls and divisions.... (Injil)... the Roof must at least be leak proof which protects all the other parts of the house underneath it.... (Qur'an).

so we have to use all 3 now

I am getting more and more confused these days so shan't say anything lest I make a mistake

wa alaikum salaam

 

[believer]

just a slight correction akhi - 'Isa alayhis-salam wasn't sent to all humanity, but only to his own people. In fact, this is also said in the Bible: "...do not unto the Gentiles...etc."

thanks akhi! well accepted.:thumbs_up

 

[believer]

so we have to use all 3 now

I am getting more and more confused these days so shan't say anything lest I make a mistake

wa alaikum salaam

Not Necessarily.... I am merely pointing out the stages where man is right now. The Qur'an is more than sufficient for the believer.

However, for referencing... we may use the two other testaments or what's left of it in order to perfect our da'wa. That's if we are pursuing a direction to that particular audience.

If you are confused now... then I must be saying something wrong. Astagfirallah , may Allah forgive me.

Since I am not an authority on this... and what I am saying is based on reflections. there is no compulsion for anyone to pick it all up.

I am just convinced that it was through the thorough reading of the bible and much reflecting on it which planted the seed in my heart and mind that Islam is truly what it was really talking about.

The Bible never preached about Christianity... christianity is merely man made... Christ is really talking about Islam all along.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Perhaps the "easiest way" (is there an easy one?) to shake the pillar of Christian faith in a Christian heart is to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted and that it contain an unsolvable set of contradictions. Once you do that, those honest Christians will accept it and start thinking about it and those dishonest and arrogant Christians will continue preaching lies like "Jesus is the savior, etc.".

Another point is that every not-too-much literate Muslim will defeat even the Pope in an honest conversation (honest means that the two will answer each other's questions, coz avoiding the question means that one cannot accept the fault in his own faith or that one has no knowledge about the asked matter).

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Another point is that every not-too-much literate Muslim will defeat even the Pope in an honest conversation (honest means that the two will answer each other's questions, coz avoiding the question means that one cannot accept the fault in his own faith or that one has no knowledge about the asked matter).

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

Not true. Nobody has so far explained the paradox called "The Trinity". They like to use it everywhere, they take this as a name for their children, they call their institutions by that name, but if I ask the Pope himself today what the trinity is, he'll sound just as much confused as a 2-year old boy.

One cannot believe in a mess, one can only believe in the Truth.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

Actually, I had quite a few conversations with some Christians, they all claim that the Bible is God's Word and yet when you present the Truth that is cannot be God's Word because of so many contradictions, they deny to see them.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Not true. Nobody has so far explained the paradox called "The Trinity". They like to use it everywhere, they take this as a name for their children, they call their institutions by that name, but if I ask the Pope himself today what the trinity is, he'll sound just as much confused as a 2-year old boy.

One cannot believe in a mess, one can only believe in the Truth.

Do you honestly think that Christians, who have belived in, studied, argumented and seeked proof for the trinity for almost two thousand years, who have always faced opposition from other religions as well as from their lot...will change their mind after a muslim tells them it is illogical? Don't think so.
The pope most certainly won't and doesn't sound confused when asked about the trinity. I mean, the man studied it for his entire life, he wrote books about it and I don't know what else.

One of the main reasons why christians and muslims cannot get along is that they both use their mentality to disprove the other ones' religion. You can't do that.

For your information: I also think, the trinity theory is weird and all that...but I am not a christian nor a theologian...

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Actually, I had quite a few conversations with some Christians, they all claim that the Bible is God's Word and yet when you present the Truth that is cannot be God's Word because of so many contradictions, they deny to see them.

Yeah, some christians, especially evangelicals belive the Bible to be true from leter to letter. Catholic and most others are different.
Evangelicals belive in the 6-day creation, the great flood etc. However, they too have a vast theological tradition that explains the trinity, the contradictions, the mistakes. They've got it all. All religion have got it all.:happy:

 

[snakelegs]

just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Do you honestly think that Christians, who have belived in, studied, argumented and seeked proof for the trinity for almost two thousand years, who have always faced opposition from other religions as well as from their lot...will change their mind after a muslim tells them it is illogical? Don't think so.
The pope most certainly won't and doesn't sound confused when asked about the trinity. I mean, the man studied it for his entire life, he wrote books about it and I don't know what else.

About the 1st paragraph: Actually, I know people who did change their mind and became Muslims. One needs not the Qur'an to see that the Bible is corrupted, it's enough to thoroughly study the Bible.

About the 2nd paragraph: Yes, the pope is confused. I wish to tackle his vast knowledge. He might be well versed and deception-trained than any of the Muslims on this very forum, but don't forget that a hypocrite will defend his stance no matter what. And those Christians who know they're not on the Truth and if they know what the Truth is and they don't want to accept it - well they can be called hypocrites. Not so long ago, a group of leading Islamic scholars of this era wrote an open letter to Vatican to unite with Muslims by believing in One True God, who has no son and no equal. I hope Vatican will study the letter well; many of the Vatican priests already know that Islam is the Truth, why don't we ask them to leave their chairs in Vatican and embrace Islam? Coz their chairs will not be warm for long; for a few days, of years, or even a few ten years perhaps, but then it's time to leave this world and time to answer some questions like:

1. Who is your Lord?
2. What faith did you follow?
3. Who is the Messenger of Allah sent to you, who did you follow?

And many will fail that very 1st test in the afterlife...

 

[Whatsthepoint]

About the 1st paragraph: Actually, I know people who did change their mind and became Muslims. One needs not the Qur'an to see that the Bible is corrupted, it's enough to thoroughly study the Bible.

About the 2nd paragraph: Yes, the pope is confused. I wish to tackle his vast knowledge. He might be well versed and deception-trained than any of the Muslims on this very forum, but don't forget that a hypocrite will defend his stance no matter what. And those Christians who know they're not on the Truth and if they know what the Truth is and they don't want to accept it - well they can be called hypocrites. Not so long ago, a group of leading Islamic scholars of this era wrote an open letter to Vatican to unite with Muslims by believing in One True God, who has no son and no equal. I hope Vatican will study the letter well; many of the Vatican priests already know that Islam is the Truth, why don't we ask them to leave their chairs in Vatican and embrace Islam? Coz their chairs will not be warm for long; for a few days, of years, or even a few ten years perhaps, but then it's time to leave this world and time to answer some questions like:

1. Who is your Lord?
2. What faith did you follow?
3. Who is the Messenger of Allah sent to you, who did you follow?

And many will fail that very 1st test in the afterlife...

There are also muslims who converted to Christianity.
Look, I am not saying that Christianity is the truth. I'm just saying that is is theologically explained and justified, just like any other religion. I'm sure Quran isn't perfect, however I am also sure that you have thorougly explained and justified it in the past 1400 years. Belief always finds a way.
They didn't say christianity should denounce the trinity. they said Christianity and Islam should strive for peace, together and without hatred and incidents.
You gotta understand that christian faith can be as strong as yours. You gotta know that chruistians find it perfect (the faith, not the bible) as you do.
I don't like youcalling christian arguments deceptive...who knows, muslim arguments could be deceptive as well.:happy:
Of course, there are mild christians and mild muslims, who convert to other religions. what would your advice be to a muslim who belives he or she's lost his religon? would you tell them to find another faith or would you send them to an islamic scholar? The latter? Well, I'd recommend the same thing to a chritian: visit a priest, a theologian - he or she will strenghten your faith.

As for the 3 questions...Don't know what to say. A just god would not judge people for following their religions, which are proven to be very hard to change for most people. So, if Allah is just, he won't care wheter you have been a muslim or a christian. A just od judges you by your deeds.:happy:

 

[believer]

There are also muslims who converted to Christianity.
Look, I am not saying that Christianity is the truth. I'm just saying that is is theologically explained and justified, just like any other religion. I'm sure Quran isn't perfect,

What is your basis for being certain that the Qur'an isn't perfect?... have you read it?


however I am also sure that you have thorougly explained and justified it in the past 1400 years. Belief always finds a way.

The Qur'an explains itself... it stands alone and it doesn't need human innovation.

They didn't say christianity should denounce the trinity. they said Christianity and Islam should strive for peace, together and without hatred and incidents.

The concept of Trinity is a Hang Up... this is an internal conflict... for as long as there is conflict within - peace cannot be achieved. For Peace and Charity begins within. I know the trinity concept since childhood and it is actually a sublime mind conditioning to make one confortable with the thought that God has needs.... this is definitely inconflict with the criteria in surrah al Fatihah which is also the touchstone of Theology that God is free of need... and that God is One. Good need not be Human or Spirit in order to send the message of Truth to Humanity... if God chooses to take the form of a man... then we cannot question it... but it will not make sense since HE doesn't need it... it will defeat the purpose of HIS very Omnipotent Being, All God needs to do is say Be and it will Be... Besides, suffering can never be a value... only Tyrants wants us to value suffering and make it as a virtue... in order to establish control.

You gotta understand that christian faith can be as strong as yours. You gotta know that chruistians find it perfect (the faith, not the bible) as you do.

Ok...

I don't like you calling christian arguments deceptive...who knows, muslim arguments could be deceptive as well.:happy:

maybe yes... maybe no....

Of course, there are mild christians and mild muslims, who convert to other religions. what would your advice be to a muslim who belives he or she's lost his religon? would you tell them to find another faith or would you send them to an islamic scholar? The latter? Well, I'd recommend the same thing to a chritian: visit a priest, a theologian - he or she will strenghten your faith.

A blind man cannot lead another blind man... If we donot have sufficient spiritual strength.. and if we donot possess an ample degree of faith... then we are realy in no position to gi ve any advise... In fact, he who gives advices need it more. Those who seek it, really don't take the advices.

As for the 3 questions...Don't know what to say. A just god would not judge people for following their religions, which are proven to be very hard to change for most people. So, if Allah is just, he won't care wheter you have been a muslim or a christian. A just od judges you by your deeds.:happy:

Not quite true.... the Qur'an has the answer to your last statement. But I will not quote the qur'an for the purpose of keeping our exchange more sincere.

Islam was not formalized as a religion but after Muhammad (SAW)... however, Islam is already a religion practiced by Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Israel, Ishmael, Joseph, David, Solomon, Jesus (Peace be unto them all) and the last prophet Muhammad (RAW)... But humanity i the early times tend to put innovations... and normally they would persecute or kill the prophets... after the prophets are gone, then their spiritual or religious leaders would venerate these prophets and make them associates of God... to the point that people are actually worshipping and praying to the prophets.

Islam was given the name and the official structure as a religion for man during the time of Muhammad (RAW).... and this is authorized by God HIMSELF. In fact, Monastecism was also invented by Man... and God said Monastecism is ok... but Man cannot really go according to it. God also discourages man to attribute purity among ourselves since we are merely humans... but HE prescribes us to pursue purity in spirit and character. And this is the right way.

Man is always in the danger of falling into the trap of false superiority thinking... this is not coming from God... this is an idea given to us by the devil. If a Christian is sincere in his faith... there is no fault in him if he had no access in finding the higher truth which is Islam.... however, if he is truly sincere... a true Christian will recognize the truth about Islam the way he recognize his sons.

Let's face it... If Christianity is really the religion closest to the truth?... then why don't christians know the name of their God? ... and if they are truly saved by the Christ (pbuh)... then why are they still being punished once or twice a year i their lives?... this is a fact.

 

[believer]

just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.

not really... in fact, it is also incomprehensible to christians...

As a child... I would say in the name of the Father, and of the saon and of the Holy Spirit... then as I grew up, the Bishops change the term into the Holy Ghost - no one uses the term Holy Spirit anymore in the contemporary Catholic Community... I don't know the reason....

whenever comfronted by a problem... I am normally confused who to ask for help?... I sometimes feel ashamed asking the Father directly because I am afraid I would insult Jesus if I bypass Him... so I just cannot find any means how to have a personal level of communications with the Father Almighty... because - I have to pass by Jesus... and then, here's the Holy Spirit... I definitely am clueless about the Holy Spirit... or the Holy Ghost for that matter. I am aware there are fruits of the spirit... and that one of them is not to be jealous... because true love is never jealous - this is of course coming from the mouth of human writers who made the present day bible.... Paul included. How can I not be jealous and God is jealous.... If we are all from God?... then Jealousy is only but a natural reaction with a justifiable basis.

suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.

In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!