Hey Agnostics & Atheists: Do you ever worry?

[جوري]

Why do you think people of Faith would not commit crimes? Iblis knew God existed and might have had direct contact with God yet he disobeyed God so obviously (at least according to Islam) disobedience has nothing to do with one's belief or faith in God.

Iblis has a mission and with the end of it a plan (if you're in fact as familiar with Islamic beliefs as you profess).. not the case for humans, especially those who live for the moment and commit crimes without forethought to consequence .. Iblis has also had an extensive and lengthy experience that goes back to the creation of man, again not the case with hedonistic criminals who commit crimes and live for the moment.. in fact I am certain that most of those in jail who show no remorse and hold a repeat record are nothing but atheists.. have you ever seen anyone say in the name of God I steal.. in the name of God I rape? yeah! I didn't think so!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

Obviously he doesn't. Otherwise prisons would be overflowing with atheists.

You know the worlds religious from the non religious prison population how exactly???

 

[Lynx]

Thankfully your opinion does not define what being moral is.
Let's take a worldwide survey and ask the whole world's population, who they think as better person: a charitable person vs. non-charitable person.

I bet stinginess is a virtue in your book.

You're not thinking your logic through. A charitable person is better than a non-charitable person only if all things are equal. If you don't understand what I mean consider a murderer who is charitable and a normal person who isn't charitable. Are you really going to follow through on your logic and say the murderer is better than the normal guy because he gives charity? And by all means conduct a survey and ask whether giving charity is both sufficient and necessary to a good moral character; I think you will find that your view is weird indeed.

Iblis has a mission and with the end of it a plan (if you're in fact as familiar with Islamic beliefs as you profess).. not the case for humans, especially those who live for the moment and commit crimes without forethought to consequence .. Iblis has also had an extensive and lengthy experience that goes back to the creation of man, again not the case with hedonistic criminals who commit crimes and live for the moment.

Either you are saying Iblis has no free will and he's doing what he has to do because God gave him his mission (to misguide whoever he can) or you are saying Iblis is excused because he has this mission; either way, the Quran clearly mentions Iblis is one of the hell-fire people so neither excuse works. So I ask you again, if Iblis knows God exists and STILL disobeys him (and I suppose he's been disobeying him for the last 500,000 thousand years) then why is it impossible to for a normal human to disobey God whilst believing that God exists? Believers sin and disobey all the time and their beliefs have nothing to do with it; they just make dumb mistakes without considering the consequences.

again not the case with hedonistic criminals who commit crimes and live for the moment.. in fact I am certain that most of those in jail who show no remorse and hold a repeat record are nothing but atheists.. have you ever seen anyone say in the name of God I steal.. in the name of God I rape? yeah! I didn't think so!

So are you retracting your previous statement that 'no believers would commit crimes (and go to jail)' and changing it to 'only criminals who show no remorse and are repeat offenders' cannot be believers? If so then you would have to show some nice research on repeat offenders that shows they are atheists and commit their crimes because of their atheism. good luck

PS. I don't hear 'I rape in the name of God' but I am sure people have in the past raped and pillaged in the name of God and the one we do hear a lot is killing in the name of God

 

[جوري]

Either you are saying Iblis has no free will and he's doing what he has to do because God gave him his mission (to misguide whoever he can) or you are saying Iblis is excused because he has this mission; either way, the Quran clearly mentions Iblis is one of the hell-fire people so neither excuse works. So I ask you again, if Iblis knows God exists and STILL disobeys him (and I suppose he's been disobeying him for the last 500,000 thousand years) then why is it impossible to for a normal human to disobey God whilst believing that God exists? Believers sin and disobey all the time and their beliefs have nothing to do with it; they just make dumb mistakes without considering the consequences.

That isn't what I am saying at all, but intentionally put it here to prove a few things.
1- how incredibly under-educated you're of Islamic theology
2- How often you feign philosophy whose foundation is based on a very malformed personal opinion.
3- If you'd actually paid attention to some of the posts that are often presented here and weren't so in love with what you personally spew, you'd not find yourself in the same predicament over and over, wasting your time and ours!

Facts according to Islamic theology is that Iblis will repent after fulfilling his mission. Iblis's problem isn't with beliefs in God's existence, it is with envy and hatred of mankind whom he views as inferior!

So are you retracting your previous statement that 'no believers would commit crimes (and go to jail)' and changing it to 'only criminals who show no remorse and are repeat offenders' cannot be believers? If so then you would have to show some nice research on repeat offenders that shows they are atheists and commit their crimes because of their atheism. good luck

I don't see how the two statements are at odds?

PS. I don't hear 'I rape in the name of God' but I am sure people have in the past raped and pillaged in the name of God and the one we do hear a lot is killing in the name of God

No one kills in the name of God for unlawful reasons!..


I have to say that I don't miss the pedantry of atheists and truly view you collectively as of the losers in the life and the next-- if anything the usual empty play on words seems to be the only meaningful way for you to spend your life makes you all the more pitiable!

all the best

 

[Lynx]

Facts according to Islamic theology is that Iblis will repent after fulfilling his mission. Iblis's problem isn't with beliefs in God's existence, it is with envy and hatred of mankind whom he views as inferior!

According to 38:85 Iblis is going to Hell. No more red herrings, okay? you still have not answered my question: if Iblis who talked to God directly was able to disobey God why do you think it is impossible for a normal human to disobey God whilst believing in God? Let me fast forward the answer to you: it's not impossible and whether you like it or not being a theist does not magically make one immune to the temptations of crime/the world. Face reality please.

I don't see how the two statements are at odds?

Not all criminals in jail are remorseful + repeat offenders. Earlier you said 'there are no people of faith in jail' and now you are saying 'there are no criminals in jail who are both remorseless and repeat offenders who are believers'. The latter is a subset of the former but not equivalent, obviously. So are you changing your statement or are you maintaining both? I don't know of any statistics to prove the latter (that's your job to find) but there are plenty of statistics to show that believers people form a greater prison population than non-believers and these have been posted several times already.

No one kills in the name of God for unlawful reasons!..

Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? So those were lawful? Are you sure you want to say that on a Muslim Forum??

I have to say that I don't miss the pedantry of atheists and truly view you collectively as of the losers in the life and the next-- if anything the usual empty play on words seems to be the only meaningful way for you to spend your life makes you all the more pitiable!

all the best[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

You haven't improved your critical thinking abilities much either.

 

[جوري]

According to 38:85 Iblis is going to Hell. No more red herrings, okay? you still have not answered my question: if Iblis who talked to God directly was able to disobey God why do you think it is impossible for a normal human to disobey God whilst believing in God? Let me fast forward the answer to you: it's not impossible and whether you like it or not being a theist does not magically make one immune to the temptations of crime/the world. Face reality please.

Iblis going to hell is a fact! No one is arguing that.. there is no changing the word of God!.. what iblis thinks or believes is at odds with that fact.. Iblis like petty humans of which you're one believes he can challenge God and win!

Not all criminals in jail are remorseful + repeat offenders. Earlier you said 'there are no people of faith in jail' and now you are saying 'there are no criminals in jail who are both remorseless and repeat offenders who are believers'. The latter is a subset of the former but not equivalent, obviously. So are you changing your statement or are you maintaining both? I don't know of any statistics to prove the latter (that's your job to find) but there are plenty of statistics to show that believers people form a greater prison population than non-believers and these have been posted several times already.

Like I said I am into semantics. Your friend above has posed that there are no atheists in prison. The onus is on you to prove that fact and you are certainly free to survey their state of mind and religiosity as they committed the acts that landed them there. The behavior of most people who are imprisoned are at odds with the fundamentals of religion. They are not however at odds with the atheist manifesto whatever it maybe for there isn't a one.. and self-governance inspires little to no confidence in the rest of the populace for the mere reason that we don't know what your baseline is!

Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? So those were lawful? Are you sure you want to say that on a Muslim Forum??

I have no higher expectation from a religion that had god running around as a little boy, what is your point? Clearly I am speaking from an Islamic perspective. Killing isn't lawful unless it be for just reasons!

contrast that with atheist killings which has surpassed millions at a time

You haven't improved your critical thinking abilities much either.

You are hardly a critical measure that we take with other than a grain of salt.. Browsing a thread on shiatan and copying a line from within hardly extricates you from the label of ignorant. Did I not tell you before that I don't enjoy pedantry? That reading an article on TIA wouldn't render you a medic anymore than reading an article on 'Shaittan' render you an Islamic scholar...

Quit embarrassing yourself.

all the best

 

[Lynx]

Iblis going to hell is a fact! No one is arguing that.. there is no changing the word of God!.. what iblis thinks or believes is at odds with that fact.. Iblis like petty humans of which you're one believes he can challenge God and win!

And that is exactly the point I am making: belief in God does not necessarily stop one from entering prison (or disobeying) nor does entering prison negate one's belief in God so your earlier statement that

People in prison have no faith.. if they did they wouldn't be committing crimes ..

is proven false.
This is reality.

 

[جوري]

And that is exactly the point I am making: belief in God does not necessarily stop one from entering prison (or disobeying) nor does entering prison negate one's belief in God so your earlier statement that

The analogy is faulty on all accounts. For starters you're speaking of a specter you don't believe in or know its motives. Then go on to make it the object of comparison.. one of apples and invisible oranges, then you add insult to your own intelligence if we're to assume it is there by quickly browsing threads on the matter to make a haphazard irrelevant point and as usual expect that folks humor your faulty premise!
And if we are to go along with your analogy merely to humor you, the objective of Iblis is never to believe in God or follow his commandments:

He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
(Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
(Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
—Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat[11]
​

Although God grants the request, He also warns the Shayṭān that he would have no authority over His sincere ‘ubūd "devoted servants".

"As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them:" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs.
—Qur'an, sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayah 65[12]
​

So as I have stated originally.. a very skilled ancient creature with one purpose in mind.. can't be compared to an ephemeral creature who has two options, either believe and walk aright or disbelieve and walk the path of self-interest..
Those who seek God don't walk the path of self-interest!

is proven false.
This is reality.

Get back to me when you've surveyed the prison population and stratified your statistics ..

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

A charitable person is better than a non-charitable person only if all things are equal

Isn't that what we were discussing in the first place?

It seems you did not follow the discussions in the thread and just decided to jump in the middle (FYI, my response was to pygoscelis' statements).

Let me remind you: the discussion was about the studies on whether religiousness is a factor in the charity-giving. We did not even talk about other human traits or conditions.

If you don't understand what I mean consider a murderer who is charitable and a normal person who isn't charitable. Are you really going to follow through on your logic and say the murderer is better than the normal guy because he gives charity?

We were talking about all things being equal, otherwise you need to state every single traits in human psychology and human conditions and put those in the function of religiousness or morally upright.
Or are you really going to follow through on your logic and actually say normal guy who does not give charity is equal than normal guy who gives charity?

And by all means conduct a survey and ask whether giving charity is both sufficient and necessary to a good moral character; I think you will find that your view is weird indeed.

Obviously being charitable is not sufficient to a good moral character, genius.
But necessary? hell yeah.

I think you've been out of touch with the situation in the real world.

In your world, maybe people do not need to give help to other people. But in majority/most populations, charity and helping each other is paramount and most definitely a necessity and most people lives critically depend on it.

I stand by my prediction that stinginess is a virtue in your book of morals.

Thinking again, if most atheists/agnostics also follow the same book of morals as yours, that explains why non-religious people give much smaller charity as has been shown in studies after studies.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You know the worlds religious from the non religious prison population how exactly???

We could ask them. I'm pretty sure people have. In fact I vaguely recall reading such statistical data. Don't you think that if all the people going to jail were atheists this would be a major data point religious zealots would wave all over the place? It would be cried form the mountaintops. It isn't.

Do you honestly believe that people need religion to stay out of jail or to lead productive, peaceful, and moral lives?

 

[جوري]

We could ask them. I'm pretty sure people have. In fact I vaguely recall reading such statistical data. Don't you think that if all the people going to jail were atheists this would be a major data point religious zealots would wave all over the place? It would be cried form the mountaintops. It isn't. Do you honestly believe that people need religion to stay out of jail or to lead productive, peaceful, and moral lives?

Most people aren't concerned with the religious affiliations of those in prison unless it is labeled under a 'terrorist crime' --
This can actually be an area of interest.. The data isn't there but you can certainly make a case for it and enlighten us.. the current statistics on people who are jailed that most are aware of is that they fail to read by the 9th grade-- hence all the campaigns about staying in school..

Don't introduce a 'factoid' in a topic if you can't otherwise back it up!

all the best

 

[Pygoscelis]

Let me remind you: the discussion was about the studies on whether religiousness is a factor in the charity-giving. We did not even talk about other human traits or conditions.

Yes, and we agreed that religiousness can be a factor inspiring charity giving. We also agreed generally that it can be a factor for good. And we also agreed that it can also inspire bad. So no, we can not say "all things equal", because all things are not equal. You can't push the good that religiousness does and hide the bad. Religion does not necessarily make somebody a more moral person.

And giving to charity isn't even necessarily a moral act. It may have a good result, but the intention and motive is what determines its morality. If the person is giving for the sake of getting something back, that isn't as moral as giving for the sake of simply giving. Intention does matter. The reverse is also true. If your actions were designed to hurt somebody but failed to do so (and maybe actually helped them) that doesn't make your action any less reprehensible.

You may think that religion makes somebody a more moral person, because it provides a carrot and a stick to beat people into being nicer than they may otherwise be. I fundamentally disagree, because it provides coercion, authoritarianism, and tribal hatred between religious groups (and towards the non-religious). I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on that point.

I stand by my prediction that stinginess is a virtue in your book of morals.

I think you may want to be more polite than to make such rude and bald faced accusations. He has said nothing to indicate what you are accusing him of. Perhaps you could ask him about his moral view on charity? Do you like it if people say you must be violent and prone to terrorism because you are a muslim? Or would you rather they not be so prejudiced? Extend the same respect you demand.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Most people aren't concerned with the religious affiliations of those in prison unless it is labeled under a 'terrorist crime' --
This can actually be an area of interest.. The data isn't there but you can certainly make a case for it and enlighten us.. the current statistics on people who are jailed that most are aware of is that they fail to read by the 9th grade-- hence all the campaigns about staying in school..

Don't introduce a 'factoid' in a topic if you can't otherwise back it up!

all the best

Again, do you honestly believe that people need religion to stay out of jail or to lead productive, peaceful, and moral lives? Would it surprise you that as an atheist I haven't killed or raped or stolen from anybody?

 

[جوري]

Again, do you honestly believe that people need religion to stay out of jail or to lead productive, peaceful, and moral lives? Would it surprise you that as an atheist I haven't killed or raped or stolen from anybody?

I actually don't care at all for the beliefs of non-Muslims and believe that I have stated that in so many words and repeatedly. My comment was directly to your:

Otherwise prisons would be overflowing with atheists.

Which is inaccurate and faulty and not backed by any real science!

all the best

 

[Lynx]

The analogy is faulty on all accounts. For starters you're speaking of a specter you don't believe in or know its motives. Then go on to make it the object of comparison.. one of apples and invisible oranges, then you add insult to your own intelligence if we're to assume it is there by quickly browsing threads on the matter to make a haphazard irrelevant point and as usual expect that folks humor your faulty premise!
And if we are to go along with your analogy merely to humor you, the objective of Iblis is never to believe in God or follow his commandments:

He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
(Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
(Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
—Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat[11]
​

Although God grants the request, He also warns the Shayṭān that he would have no authority over His sincere ‘ubūd "devoted servants".

"As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them:" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs.
—Qur'an, sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayah 65[12]
​

So as I have stated originally.. a very skilled ancient creature with one purpose in mind.. can't be compared to an ephemeral creature who has two options, either believe and walk aright or disbelieve and walk the path of self-interest..
Those who seek God don't walk the path of self-interest!



Get back to me when you've surveyed the prison population and stratified your statistics ..

all the best

I think the analogy works fine if Iblis and humans share two key characteristics: free will and intelligence. Also, in your previous post you said something about defending the claim that there are no atheists in jail. I don't think anyone made that claim and Pygo only said prisons are not overflowing with atheists so maybe you misreading something that was said. The only extreme claim that was made

@Naidamar
You're right I misunderstood your position. I thought for some reason you were saying giving charity or not giving charity is the difference that makes one moral or unmoral. I agree all things being equal giving charity is better than not giving charity.

But necessary? hell yeah.

I think you've been out of touch with the situation in the real world.

In your world, maybe people do not need to give help to other people. But in majority/most populations, charity and helping each other is paramount and most definitely a necessity and most people lives critically depend on it.

By necessary I mean a condition that must be fulfilled before one could be said to have a good moral character. I am not talking about necessity in an any economic sense of the word..
And I do believe it is not necessary to give charity to be a good person simply because not everyone can afford to give charity and we can't call blame those people for not giving. The problem I guess with labelling charity as an obligatory moral act is where to draw the line. I think if people are making billions then some form of charity is obligatory

I stand by my prediction that stinginess is a virtue in your book of morals.

Thinking again, if most atheists/agnostics also follow the same book of morals as yours, that explains why non-religious people give much smaller charity as has been shown in studies after studie

Well I am all for charity and I think most atheists/agnostics are supportive of charity. They might not participate themselves for a variety of reasons (think: girl who doesn't wear hijab but knows shes lacking) but this is different from praising stinginess.

 

[جوري]

I think the analogy works fine if Iblis and humans share two key characteristics: free will and intelligence. Also, in your previous post you said something about defending the claim that there are no atheists in jail. I don't think anyone made that claim and Pygo only said prisons are not overflowing with atheists so maybe you misreading something that was said. The only extreme claim that was made

It doesn't work fine at all, as there are no parallels.
Different creations
Different purposes
Different life spans
Different needs
and one completely visceral and not subject to comparison!
completely different outcomes.. one has already made up his mind what the outcome should be (but is defiant regardless)
the other can determine his outcome with his actions. Criminal actions aren't in concert with a good outcome.

There is no other way to read pygs statement. I think it is rather self-explanatory and you need not add different dressing to the same wilted salad merely to save face!

all the best

 

[Lynx]

It doesn't work fine at all, as there are no parallels.
Different creations
Different purposes
Different life spans
Different needs
and one completely visceral and not subject to comparison!

all the best

Except the parallels of FREE WILL AND INTELLIGENCE TO CHOOSE WITH THAT FREE WILL. And according to the Quran Allah has not created men or Jinn for any other purpose but to worship him. Do you deny that Iblis was a jin? Because I assure you he was.

completely different outcomes.. one has already made up his mind what the outcome should be (but is defiant regardless)
the other can determine his outcome with his actions. Criminal actions aren't in concert with a good outcome.

This is not even relevant. Before I continue discussing this with you I want you to state in your own words what you think I am arguing about. History has shown me that you aren't very good at following the other person's argument and it's starting to seem like you're doing it again.

 

[Lynx]

http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snsg-04334.pdf

Here are some statistics about England and Wales. I hope this helps.

 

[جوري]

http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snsg-04334.pdf Here are some statistics about England and Wales. I hope this helps.

Helps alot actually thank you

looks like you're second to Christians in prison!


all the best

 

[جوري]

Except the parallels of FREE WILL AND INTELLIGENCE TO CHOOSE WITH THAT FREE WILL. And according to the Quran Allah has not created men or Jinn for any other purpose but to worship him. Do you deny that Iblis was a jin? Because I assure you he was.

There are different jinns:

1 Amir: (Resident Jinn) used to mean that he is one of those who lives with people.
2 Shaytan: Used for a Jinni who is malicious and has become wicked.
3 Ifrit: Used for a Jinni who is stronger and more powerful than a Shaytan.



and of them Iblis (****aan) has already made his choice not yet to make it!
It isn't a one size fits all and there are certainly no parallels as I have already posted earlier least of which to this particular type of jinn!

This is not even relevant. Before I continue discussing this with you I want you to state in your own words what you think I am arguing about. History has shown me that you aren't very good at following the other person's argument and it's starting to seem like you're doing it again.

You are arguing much ado about nothing.. It is a game you've perfected when at a loss to make an intelligent statement and you make non-intelligent statements often. Now you're merely looking for a leeway to extricate yourself as always from another hole you dug for yourself and another ailing argument!


Thank you though for the stats.. looks like you probably weren't counting on us clicking on the link? seems indeed that prisons are overflowing with atheists and you walking away with your tail between your legs yet again!

all the best