How is it possible for god not to exist??

[ranma1/2]

..
I believe in God because I was brought up to do so.
I have found evidences and experiences which have confirmed my belief..

If absolute proof of God's existence existed, then everyone in the world would probably be a theist. That is unfortunately not the case.

If someone were to ask me to prove that God exists, my answer would be that I cannot. I could come up with many reasons why I believe in his existence, but I cannot prove it. But the conclusion then, is not that God doesn't exist. The conclusion is merely that it cannot be proven.

Likewise, if I were to ask an atheist to disprove that God exists, they would not be able to. .., but just as I cannot prove God's existence, atheists cannot disprove his existence.

....
[/SIZE]

So do you think you would not be a muslim if you were raised differently?
In general its the responciblity of the one giving the positive claim to prove something. You dont have to prove there is not a IPU ro GFSM or a celestial teapot or I dont have psychic powers. Its the responcibility of the positive claimer.

Also dont you think a god "especially a good one" would leave no dount to its existence? Well got to go.

 

[- Qatada -]

Guyabano, i never said that God couldn't send the Qur'an in less than a second.

Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!

[Qur'an 36: 82]

​

I've explained to you before that we as humans need a context for different situations. So the Qur'an was revealed during different situations;

The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23years so we could see the context of the verses. If you've actually read the Qur'an you'll see that certain verses were revealed during the time the Muslims were weak and oppressed, then other verses were revealed when the Muslims had their own state and faced the battlefield, other verses were revealed when the Muslims were secure, others were revealed when the Muslims were an established authority etc.


When we read the Qur'an, we see how it is in relation to the Prophet and his companions (which is also preserved for us authentically.) Therefore, any situation the Muslims face, they see the Prophetic example, they see the verses in regard to that situation so they can respond in a similar manner. This is then the perfect example for us as believers, and if we see any situation during the lifetime of the Prophet and his companions, we can follow their example and be successful.

With the Qur'an being revealed gradually has a greater wisdom behind it than just being revealed within one go.

​

I stated that in the post i linked you to.



Let me ask you this question. Do you think that someone can write a diary of their whole future and present life in one day while they're only 4 years old?

 

[guyabano]

Let me ask you this question. Do you think that someone can write a diary of their whole future and present life in one day while they're only 4 years old?

My apologozie. I seem to have neglected this thread by not reading.

We don't speak about someone. We're suppose to speak about God. And then, we assume, he would know the past, present and future, no? He's almighty, right? So why taking so long?

A human of course cannot know his/her future, that's true !

 

[- Qatada -]

My apologozie. I seem to have neglected this thread by not reading.

It's okay.

We don't speak about someone. We're suppose to speak about God. And then, we assume, he would know the past, present and future, no? He's almighty, right? So why taking so long?

A human of course cannot know his/her future, that's true !

I totally agree, and i've explained earlier that revelation is for mankind. Therefore, even if Allaah is outside the boundaries of time - that doesn't mean that we are. Therefore we require a context for the verses, we need an example, a role model to follow so we know that we are following the correct way.

This is why the Qur'an has been sent over a period of 23yrs, if it was sent all at once - then the verses about self defence in war wouldn't be applicable when there is no battle taking place, or the verses about the Islamic state wouldn't be applicable if there wasn't even an Islamic state established. The verses were sent in different situations during different events and circumstances, so later Muslims would also know how to respond in a similar manner, to how the Prophet and his companions did during certain circumstances.





Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

Religions just bring the worsiest out of humans. We do wars in the name of God, cruisades, Terrorists use God for their actions against Kuffars, and so on. I'm so tired of this !

Using the example which i gave above, it actually explains that what acts are being done aren't part of Islaam i.e. to kill innocents, non combatants etc. Since the Prophet forbade this;

The final Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:


[In the Context of War:]

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children. [Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]



In the Qur'an, Allaah Almighty says (translation of the meaning):

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]


​

From the above we see that religion is being used here to promote good, to forbid the killing of innocents, to stop the shedding of blood and murder, and to encourage others to preserve life. While society which is controlled by other ideologies may not care about these sacred principles.


I agree that some people can try to use religion to justify evil, however - let's say over 1500 years ago, it was the norms to go to any land and just kill every single person, take others as slaves, and devour the innocent peoples property unjustly. The final Messenger of Allaah came and abolished this. It's even sometimes done today when a country can simply throw an atom bomb and eradicate the whole nation, simply because the former nation is more powerful economically.


The ideology which is well known today is 'the survival of the fittest' - it's all about 'being an animal' and therefore harming others, while the shedding of blood is cheap. The World Wars which took place in the 20th century are a great example of this [since it wasn't a religious aim, rather an aim opposing religion], and how millions of people got killed, and all it was, was a challenge over power and authority among the world leaders.


EDIT: I did some research and found something shocking;

World War 1:

The war lasted from 1914-18, claimed 10 million lives and forever changed the political map of Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/world_war_i/197437.stm


The total of deaths in World War 2 (1930-1945) are estimated to be around:

56,125,262

http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html


That's 56 million 125 thousand 262.



That's around 66 MILLION people (if we round it to a lower number) killed in 19years! And this was by a group of people who were anti-religious, following Darwinism, 'the survival of the fittest' ideology.


That's a HUGE number.
​

So if religion is to be blamed, i agree that some will try to justify evil using it. However, since i don't agree with all religions but believe in Islaam, i believe that there is much more good which comes through it than evil. And much less harm also. Which is one of the aims of Islaam.




And Allaah knows best.




Regards.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings,

I don't think we have had the chance to speak before ranma1/2. Well anyway, I hope everything is ok with you, even though you ruined my cool exit.

So do you think you would not be a muslim if you were raised differently?

I couldn't possibly know. I doubt that I would be a Muslim if I was raised as a follower of another religion, but it's not something I want to speculate about.

In general its the responciblity of the one giving the positive claim to prove something. You dont have to prove there is not a IPU ro GFSM or a celestial teapot or I dont have psychic powers. Its the responcibility of the positive claimer.

I sort of agree with you. Except, I thought that it was the responsibility of the original claimant on whom the burden of proof lies? So, if an argument started with somebody claiming that the celestial teapot does not exist, would they not have to provide evidence? (Genuine question again)

Even so, my real point was that when I cannot prove the existence of God, the conclusion is not automatically that he does not exist. It is only that I have not been able to prove it. And it would be the same vice versa for an atheist attempting to disprove God's existence.

Also dont you think a god "especially a good one" would leave no dount to its existence? Well got to go.

Here is where we go into life being a test and whatnot. Also, God can see everything and being Al-Hakeem or the 'All-wise' would know exactly what to do.

Again, my arguments will probably be as unconvincing to you as yours are to me. I can probably predict your reply and I can also predict what my reply to your reply would be. I don't think I'm going to convince you and I doubt that you will convince me. Sorry to sound so pessimistic. You're welcome to continue with me though and I won't be able to resist replying most likely. :nervous:

Have fun wherever you're going.

Regards

 

[Woodrow]

I always cringe when I see a statement challenging somebody to prove that something does not exist. On the surface that sounds like a very simple. provable statement. Yet, it is impossible to answer. We as humans do not have the means to prove that something does not exist.

Standards can be established to validate the existence of something. But, that does not hold true to prove that something does not exist. There can always be an explanation as to why something appears to exist. But, if it is not mutually accepted that is proof of existence, there is no proof shown. There are no known criteria to show that something does not exist.

I firmly believe in the existence and truth of Allah(swt). But, I can not expect somebody to prove he does not exist. The challange is for me to offer proof that He does exist. I am satisfied that I have seen sufficient evidence to convince me. But, I do know I have to accept the fact that others will view that simply as evidence and not as proof.

No person is capable of offering me proof that Allah(swt) does not exist. There is no point in my even asking such a question. My goal is better directed to establish a common means of communication and establish mutually acceptable standards of validation of proof. This comes down to being an individual task for me and strictly one to one contact, generalities are very limited.

 

[barney]

The first question that came to mind was "why would a person do that and with what purpose?". From experience I know that man is driven by ambition and power. :

And Religion is the most powerful route to wealth and power. Bar none.

Imagine, one day your sitting on a hillside minding some sheep....6 months later you have tens of thousands of adoring ...actually more than adoring, more like fanatical, followers. They flatter you, call you the best of men, throw gifts at you, you can order deaths with a wave of a hand, your feet get oiled. Theres nothing not to like about it...except the utter Immorality.

 

[Woodrow]

And Religion is the most powerful route to wealth and power. Bar none.

Imagine, one day your sitting on a hillside minding some sheep....6 months later you have tens of thousands of adoring ...actually more than adoring, more like fanatical, followers. They flatter you, call you the best of men, throw gifts at you, you can order deaths with a wave of a hand, your feet get oiled. Theres nothing not to like about it...except the utter Immorality.

Somehow that does not sound very religious to me.
I believe that form of "Religion" is being replaced by rap singers and TV celebrities.

actually what you describe does not sound all that good.

"throw gifts at you," sounds like something an angry immature young wife would do, cause her husband said something she didn't like.


"your feet get oiled." That happens to oil field workers often. They complain about the difficulty in getting it off.

 

[Gator]

OK I am still not convinced by the answes presented by the atheist. The following reasons explain why I am still not convinced:

Final Result = NOT CONVINCED YET, please continue though Im still young you just might change me.:happy:

I thought the purpose of this thread was to get a better picture of some of the people you share the planet with, rather than bait them to try and "convert" you.

I'm glad your a muslim. Stay a muslim.

Take it easy and adios.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


lol thats funny woodrow



One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that many of the Prophets of Allaah were living perfectly normal, and even easy lifestyles before they received the message. They were usually from the most noble tribes of their people, therefore they would have a great deal amount of honor and respect from the people.


Yet when Allaah sent them revelation, there own tribes/clans and people started to oppose them. They started insulting them, so their honor was lost. They never had the wealth from their own tribes [although they would have easy access to it before], there followers would usually be poor people and the down-trodden.


To stop the call; the disbelievers would try to bribe the Prophet and his followers - 'we will give you kingdom, wealth, women, honor, and all that you desire. But just give up your religion and follow the ways of our forefathers instead.' But the Prophets refused, knowing that this wasn't their purpose.


So the Prophet would live a poor life, he never had much honor among his own people, and the believers would be humble while the disbelievers would oppose them and even torture many. Yet they remained constant and firm upon the truth.



This is even a stronger proof that the Prophets never desired this world, they never desired all the worldly things that people were after. They sacrificed their lives, wealth, honor, and everything they had for Allaah.

Yet what did they call to? To worship Allaah Alone. To establish the prayer, to enjoin the family ties, to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. To help the needy, to unite mankind in good, and in return for this - Allaah would grant those who believe and do good Paradise. And He will punish the rebellious.

Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they.

For those who believe and do righteous deeds are Gardens as hospitable homes, for their (good) deeds.


As to those who are rebellious and wicked, their abode will be the Fire: every time they wish to get away therefrom, they will be forced thereinto, and it will be said to them: "Taste ye the Penalty of the Fire, the which ye used to deny.


And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return.

And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns away therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) Retribution.


[Qur'an 32: 18-22]
​

 

[Woodrow]

:salamext:


lol thats funny woodrow

Shukran for understanding the humor. But, like many of my posts, it also has a serious side. Religion is not based upon material gain. When the values of the material world control any religion, it ceases to be worship and does become an industry. Sadly, such industries do exist, but their rewards are only short term.

Your post, is very much to the point and does show the differences between a true religion and a self fulfilling industry.

 

[guyabano]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?
I guess, this would end up in a massacre, and this all in the name of (a) God.

And suppose that God should bring peace on earth. What a dilemma !

 

[Trumble]

The ideology which is well known today is 'the survival of the fittest' - it's all about 'being an animal' and therefore harming others, while the shedding of blood is cheap. The World Wars which took place in the 20th century are a great example of this [since it wasn't a religious aim, rather an aim opposing religion], and how millions of people got killed, and all it was, was a challenge over power and authority among the world leaders.

And this was by a group of people who were anti-religious, following Darwinism, 'the survival of the fittest' ideology.

Darwinism is not an 'ideology' to be followed or not, it is an explanation for why certain things in the world are as they are. "Survival of the fittest" as a political concept has been around as long as mankind and has nothing to do with "Darwinism". It is true that both Germans and Japanese considered others racially inferior, but so had countless other conquerors throughout history... not infrequently for religious reasons.

Both wars came about for much the same reasons as just about every earlier war (including most of the 'religious' ones, particularly the crusades). WW1 was the result of a mixture of assorted gripes that existed between the most powerful European nations at the time, and was actually sparked off by a political assassination by a Serbian nationalist. WW2 was rather more 'traditional', in that countries who thought they needed more land and resources set out to acquire them from others by force.. just as the Assyrians had, the Romans had, the Mongols had, and many others had, before them. The reason the 20th century conflicts were so devastating was simply that we had devised ever more efficient and ingenious ways of slaughtering each other, and the nature of war had changed so that civilians were also targets. Had WW3 been fought, with atomic weapons, the carnage would have been far worse no matter what happened to start it.

One statistic you missed, incidently, was that while 10 million died in WW1, another 18 million died shortly afterwards as the result, not of war, but of a flu epidemic. You see what I mean about 'the problem of evil'? How could a benevolent, omnipotent God allow people to suffer like that for four years and then kill them off with flu?!

 

[- Qatada -]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?

Do you believe that God dies? If you disagree, then that removes Christianity and Hinduism off the shelf. It also removes the Egyptian Pharoah 'gods' off the shelf too since they too die [obviously because they're humans.]

Do you believe that God has children and a wife, and a whole family? Do you think that He is only limited to having one ability? I.e. he can only cause thunder, while another god is god of the sea and therefore is limited to controlling the sea etc? Do you think that God is limited to certain aspects only, while others share the duties upon with other 'gods'? If you disagree, then you disagree with the Greek gods. Aswell as the Aztecs.


Do you think that God has human attributes? If so - then he isn't God. Since God is only God because He isn't human and limited.



If someone said that God can do anything and therefore be a flying 'kettle in space' [as some have said.] Is that believable. No.


Do you agree that God only does what befits His Majesty? This is Islaam. Is it believable that it is our Creator and Sustainer who alone grants us all we have in life? Creating a system where mankind and others can survive for many milleniums if not millions of years? If He has created and sustained us throughout, isn't it believable that He would send us guidance for what He has given us? And therefore we are required to submit to Him. Yes, It is believable.


Allaah is the Lord of the Worlds.

He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.


[Qur'an 59: 23-4]​

 

[- Qatada -]

One statistic you missed, incidently, was that while 10 million died in WW1, another 18 million died shortly afterwards as the result, not of war, but of a flu epidemic.

That's amazing.

You see what I mean about 'the problem of evil'? How could a benevolent, omnipotent God allow people to suffer like that for four years and then kill them off with flu?!

Allaah is the Wise, All Knowing. So i can carry on bringing theories trying to explain why it happened, however only Allaah knows the true reason behind this.

What i will say though is that even if something doesn't seem pleasing to us at one time in history, there may be a great deal of good through it in the future which we may be unaware of. So it may seem evil at one time, yet it is for a greater good in the future. What good you ask? I simply don't know, since it's Allaah who is the Wise, All Knowing.





Regards.

 

[Woodrow]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?
I guess, this would end up in a massacre, and this all in the name of (a) God.

And suppose that God should bring peace on earth. What a dilemma !

I believe you have just given strong evidence that only ONE God(swt) can exist. The scenario you just described would be the daily occurrence if there were more than one.

There probably are other creatures more powerfull than humans and perhaps to some humans they may be viewed as gods. But they are not God(swt).

I believe the only likely scenarios are there is either one God(swt) or no god.
I personally believe in the existance of ONE God(swt).

 

[guyabano]

@Quatada and Woodrow ! I accept these arguments, and may you find what you are looking for.

Me, I'm still on the quest. My wife is also digging on me every day to accept God, but what can I say, I'm already old fart (40)

 

[Woodrow]

@Quatada and Woodrow ! I accept these arguments, and may you find what you are looking for.

Me, I'm still on the quest. My wife is also digging on me every day to accept God, but what can I say, I'm already old fart (40)

For myself the quest is over, it is now just a desire to remain on the path. I have found what I was looking for.

May your journey in searching be short and bring you much happiness and rewards. It really is a quest each of us has to walk alone. We can only use the words of others as temporary landmarks to help us each decide if we are on the path to our desired goal.

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks guyabano May Allaah guide you and us all to what pleases Him, ameen.




Peace.