If Islam is the right path, why have muslims been killing each other for 1400 years?

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IbnAbdulHakim said:
Indeed !

i dnt see why further explenation is required...
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Because what a "true Muslim" is to you might be different to what a "true Muslim" is to Woodrow. Sufism for example - you might consider them proper Muslims whereas another person might not - and indeed, might even condemn them as heretical. I'm pretty certain that it's heavily debated in academic circles...
 
Encolpius said:
Because what a "true Muslim" is to you might be different to what a "true Muslim" is to Woodrow. Sufism for example - you might consider them proper Muslims whereas another person might not - and indeed, might even condemn them as heretical. I'm pretty certain that it's heavily debated in academic circles...
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lol a true muslim lives according to the way of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and the rightly guided caliphs.

its that simple :)
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
lol a true muslim lives according to the way of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and the rightly guided caliphs.

its that simple :)
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Yes, but do all the different sects, divisions, and suchlike all fit in that? The ones that you think do so, grosso modo, might be different from the ones that another does. Also, there's the question of interpretations as to how important which aspects of the "way of the Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs" are in comparison to others...

So you see, it's still a question of opinion and doctrine.
 
Encolpius said:
Yes, but do all the different sects, divisions, and suchlike all fit in that? The ones that you think do so, grosso modo, might be different from the ones that another does. Also, there's the question of interpretations as to how important which aspects of the "way of the Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs" are in comparison to others...

So you see, it's still a question of opinion and doctrine.
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The reason why sectarianism mushroomed in the first place is because - they started to think differently!

In Islam... true Islam and True Muslims... it is not permissible or accpetable to be thinking differently from the original context. There is only one way of everything. Like:

One God.
One Quran,
One Ummah,
One Religion - Islam

Sectarianism is a result of Innovation... ever noticed why all the religions and sect of the world have a heirarchy of humans in their organizational structure? Except the original religion established by God himself which is ISLAM. We have no priests, no pastors, no POPES, no Bishops, no Cardinals, No Deacons.

Equality of humanity can only be seen in Islam. Wether you're the Minister of Political Affairs or the GM of a company, you all fall in one line in the Mosque. whether you're merely a garbage collector or Janitor - you can be Imam.

Anyone can become Imam no matter what his position in the society... if he knows more Chapters in the Qur'an by heart and has strong Iman and Deen inside his heart and soul... everyone will place him in front - no need for votation.

The sects who call themselves Muslims are far astray from the real Islam... If you make an investigation to their practices... you will find - they all have Church Heirarchy and they are all contributing money to the top of their pyramid structure. And they are all relying for intercession... this is already a form of SHIRK.

Allah says: No one can carry another mans' burden. MEaning... No one can die for another Mans sins, nor is there anyone who can Pay for your sins through intercession or whatever form. You sins is your personal debt to the creator... and it is payable even after life.
 
believer said:
The reason why sectarianism mushroomed in the first place is because - they started to think differently!

In Islam... true Islam and True Muslims... it is not permissible or accpetable to be thinking differently from the original context. There is only one way of everything. Like:

One God.
One Quran,
One Ummah,
One Religion - Islam

Sectarianism is a result of Innovation... ever noticed why all the religions and sect of the world have a heirarchy of humans in their organizational structure? Except the original religion established by God himself which is ISLAM. We have no priests, no pastors, no POPES, no Bishops, no Cardinals, No Deacons.

Equality of humanity can only be seen in Islam. Wether you're the Minister of Political Affairs or the GM of a company, you all fall in one line in the Mosque. whether you're merely a garbage collector or Janitor - you can be Imam.

Anyone can become Imam no matter what his position in the society... if he knows more Chapters in the Qur'an by heart and has strong Iman and Deen inside his heart and soul... everyone will place him in front - no need for votation.

The sects who call themselves Muslims are far astray from the real Islam... If you make an investigation to their practices... you will find - they all have Church Heirarchy and they are all contributing money to the top of their pyramid structure. And they are all relying for intercession... this is already a form of SHIRK.

Allah says: No one can carry another mans' burden. MEaning... No one can die for another Mans sins, nor is there anyone who can Pay for your sins through intercession or whatever form. You sins is your personal debt to the creator... and it is payable even after life.
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So go on then. How many of the 1.3 billion or so individuals who identify as Muslim in today's world are, in fact, true Muslims according to that definition, and why do you think that many?
 
How does one know what is anyones heart? no amount of trolling is going to confirm or deny that fact
 
Encolpius said:
So go on then. How many of the 1.3 billion or so individuals who identify as Muslim in today's world are, in fact, true Muslims according to that definition, and why do you think that many?
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For your first question... the answer would be - I have no idea? Mathematics and statistics is not one of my strong areas.... moreover, it's not the robe that makes the monk. In other words... being identified as a Muslim in the eyes of men - is no concern of mine. To be Identified as a Muslim in the eyes of God is more important.

I'd rather think there are many; and remain hoping that its true... than being convinced that there's only a few and frown about it.

I do pray you could change your religion from pagan to something else... like ...lim? :D

May Allah bless you and your family and guide you further in your journey towards Islam.

Ameen Bro!
 
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NoName55 said:
How does one know what is anyones heart? no amount of trolling is going to confirm or deny that fact
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The answer is - No. No one can know what is in another persons heart... It is only Allah who knows what is in our breasts...

Moreover, it is not the job of a Muslim to babysit non-muslims... but it is our obligation to Allah to share the Message of Islam... i.e., the promise of Paradise and the Warning of Hell... and the truth! which is:

THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT ALLAH! and HE IS THE ONLY ONE WORHTY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP! HE HAS NO PARTNERS! HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN NOR HAVE HE BEGOTTEN ANYONE! HIS THRONE EXCEEDS THE BOUNDERIES OF THE UNLIMITED UNIVERSE! and HE IS MOST GRACIOUS and MOST MERCIFUL!
ONLY HE HAS THE POWER TO GIVE LIFE, GIVE DEATH, AND GIVE LIFE AGAIN.

This is the only message which all the prophets in the olden days has been reitterating into the minds and hearts of humanity... and somehow - it's not sticking too well... That's why we need to help spread the message.

May Allah guide and bless us always!
 
believer said:
For your first question... the answer would be - I have no idea? Mathematics and statistics is not one of my strong areas.... moreover, it's not the robe that makes the monk. In other words... being identified as a Muslim in the eyes of men - is no concern of mine. To be Identified as a Muslim in the eyes of God is more important.

I'd rather think there are many and hope that its true... than being convinced that it only a few and frown about it.

I do pray you could change your religion from pagan to something else... like ...lim? :D

May Allah bless you and your family and guide you further in your journey towards Islam.

Ameen Bro!
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Now you say, "it is not permissible or accpetable to be thinking differently from the original context," but there are still debates, from what I've gathered, in Islamic academic circles about what the original context is. There's the different schools of fiqh for one, some of which mandate certain conduct yet others class it as merely recommended. And both sides in this are based on pulling quotes from the Qur'an and the Hadiths and using those to prop up the argument one way or another. And, of course, there's the Sunni/Shia split which occurred literally moments after the Prophet's funeral. Are both Sunni and Shia Muslims "true" Muslims or what? And why might you make that distinction? Just because a person interprets the less certain aspects of God's Word in a different way (albeit with equal justification to back it up) doesn't mean that they're all infidels...

And back onto topic proper, you say that only God can decide what's a "true" Muslim but isn't that what you've been trying to do by saying that no "true" Muslim would kill another, much like no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This is the point I've been aiming at for most of this exchange.
 
believer said:
The answer is - No. No one can know what is in another persons heart... It is only Allah who knows what is in our breasts...

Moreover, it is not the job of a Muslim to babysit non-muslims... but it is our obligation to Allah to share the Message of Islam... i.e., the promise of Paradise and the Warning of Hell... and the truth! which is:

THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT ALLAH! and HE IS THE ONLY ONE WORHTY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP! HE HAS NO PARTNERS! HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN NOR HAVE HE BEGOTTEN ANYONE! HIS THRONE EXCEEDS THE BOUNDERIES OF THE UNLIMITED UNIVERSE! and HE IS MOST GRACIOUS and MOST MERCIFUL!
ONLY HE HAS THE POWER TO GIVE LIFE, GIVE DEATH, AND GIVE LIFE AGAIN.

This is the only message which all the prophets in the olden days has been reitterating into the minds and hearts of humanity... and somehow - it's not sticking too well... That's why we need to help spread the message.

May Allah guide and bless us always!
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Masha'Allah!
 
Encolpius said:
How many of the 1.3 billion or so individuals who identify as Muslim in today's world are, in fact, true Muslims according to that definition, and why do you think that many
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We can get a rough estimate through a hadith of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in which he said that only 1 out of every 1000 people that have ever lived will not touch hellfire.
 
no you can't! because some (or many) of 999 will not reside in hellfire for eternity

anyway must provide references for any claims as required by site rules!
 
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A true Muslim would never have to touch hellfire, so yes you can make a rough estimate.

If we assume that Muslims today are on the same level as those living at the times of the prophets (pbut), then roughly 1 out of 250 of today's Muslims is a true Muslim. However, we don't know if today's Muslims are on the same, better, or worse level than the ones who came before, so it's quite possible that the number is way off.

Personally, I don't think that there is more than 1 out of every 50,000 people living today that will not touch hellfire.
 
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so there are 100% perfect people somewhere? like for example shias and their imams?

again provide references!
 
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A reference to what, exactly?
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from where you derive your ruling? name of book (not alkafi and/or similar) and page number, or name of a living scholar (not Lahnatulahs)
 
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It's a hadith that I've heard many times, but I don't know its exact number and page. Is there an easy to seach online source for hadiths?
 
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