Immigrants / refugees

[sister herb]

This is not the case. Europe has not always been multicultural. The peoples of Europe were relatively homogenous, just as they were in Asian countries.

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.

I wonder how far to the history we have to go that "Europe isn´t multicultural". Maybe to the time of the Neanderthals and mammoths.

If I think for example my country, Finland in the North Europe; well, for the centuries here people have spoken very different kind of languages (Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Romani and Sami - languages witch are not even relative together), they have came from very different backgrounds and have had different religious. I believe that same have been the main situation also in the other parts of the Europe too.

I could call this quite multicultural.

 

[Gale]

I wonder how far to the history we have to go that "Europe isn´t multicultural". Maybe to the time of the Neanderthals and mammoths.

If I think for example my country, Finland in the North Europe; well, for the centuries here people have spoken very different kind of languages (Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Romani and Sami - languages witch are not even relative together), they have came from very different backgrounds and have had different religious. I believe that same have been the main situation also in the other parts of the Europe too.

I could call this quite multicultural.

That is not multiculturalism but simple geography. Swedes, Russians and Sami are all native peoples of countries that border Finland. In Finland itself the Finnish ethnic group comprises the majority of the population and the Finnish language predominates.

The historic religious affiliation of Finns has been either Lutheranism or Orthodoxy (in smaller numbers). Finland is hardly a multicultural melting pot when the majority of its population consist of ethnic Finns who speak Finnish and have a background in the Lutheran faith. I know there are Tatars, Sami and others but they are in small numbers and again, they are native to Northern Europe and Eurasia.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.

Greetings Gale,


Mmm… (smile) We are all immigrants, sooner or later. Human beings have been migrating and mixing since the beginning of recorded history (and well before, indeed). (smile) And this has brought richness and flavour to our lives. (twinkle) Though we tend to resist it at first.

Here in Canada, many of us (like myself) are recent immigrants. We also have people whose ancestors arrived tens or hundreds or many thousands of years ago. (smile) And we are mixing and creating a society that can include everyone, while honouring people's wishes to hold onto some part of their identity they hold dear. (smile) Is everything perfect? Of course not! We are human, and thus imperfect. But we generally believe that we can and should work on building something together for everyone.

(smile) And all in all, I feel, things are working out pretty well.


May God, the Creator of us all, Help us to see the commonalities and savour the differences.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

Greetings again Johnny,


Mmm… (gently) I'd say the "consensus" you're talking about is actually what you believe and what you want to justify to yourself and try to convince other people of.

Refugees fleeing war are exactly the sort of people you'd expect to risk their and their children's lives to get somewhere safer. Why on earth would someone who is in a safe and stable place take their babies and children and pay large sums of money to risk drownings, beatings by boarder guards, racist hecklings, trudging in the rain across unknown countrysides, suffocating in trucks …?

The fact that pregnant women and parents of children are risking their lives and the lives of their little ones speaks to me of the desperation of these people to find sanctuary. Refugee camps are not a safe and stable place to be. They are holding pens where lives are in stasis. These are not places anyone would want their children to grow up in. They are not places where you can build a life.

Do refugees hope to build better lives for their children? Of course they do! And from what Canada has experienced of refugees, they tend to make excellent citizens who work hard and contribute to their host society. And their children tend to become integrated and productive members of society. Why? Because they tend to be brave and grateful people who want a better life for their children.

I had neighbours who were Hungarian refugees. I had friends growing up who were refugees from Vietnam, from Central America, from Iran. My children (who had a refugee father) are friends with the children of refugees from Somalia. All these people came from very diverse places, but they all have become part of the Canadian mosaic. (smile) In all their beauty and human failings.

(gently) I understand that you are uncomfortable with your neighbours in the UK that you don't know very well. But as Sister Herb has suggested, perhaps you could take steps to get to know them better? We fear what we do not know. But when we deal with our fear, we can open such doors of freedom and wonder…! (smile) as Eric H has… walking the dark streets at night to grasp the hands of broken strangers.


May God, the Almighty, Bolster our courage and Help us to take steps into the dark unknowns in our lives… and into the brightness of His Pure Light.

 

[sister herb]

That is not multiculturalism but simple geography. Swedes, Russians and Sami are all native peoples of countries that border Finland. In Finland itself the Finnish ethnic group comprises the majority of the population and the Finnish language predominates.

Actually this is not true. Only Sami people are native in Finland. We all others are immigrants - also we who now call ourselves as Finnish and Europeans. Scientists do not all agree with each other from where we originally are coming from. ;D

Oops, also Sami people have came to here from somewhere... Ok, let´s agree that they were here at the first. We others are then immigrants.

Also Christianity isn´t native religion in Finland. Its a religion of the Swedish occupiers.

We can go back to the historical times and find how many of those people, whose we now call themselves as "pure Europeans" have moved to the Europe - so their origin too is something else than "European". We also can remember how big part of the other religions and cultures have had (and still has) to the "European culture" like muslims in the Spain or think about the political and cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire to the Europe and so on.

But now back to the topic please. We are not talking here if Europe is multicultural or what ever it is. We are also talking about refugees and our responsibility to take care of the people whose need help and shelter.

Isn´t it a part of the faith of the Christians to help your fellowmen whose are in need, if I have understood it right? Not try to find excuses like "Europe isn´t multicultural" and by them try to keep those people need help outside.

 

[Gale]

Mmm… (smile) We are all immigrants, sooner or later. Human beings have been migrating and mixing since the beginning of recorded history (and well before, indeed). (smile) And this has brought richness and flavour to our lives. (twinkle) Though we tend to resist it at first.

Of course, there is no denying that we were all immigrants at some point. Our ancestors all entered certain lands thousands of years ago.

However, everyone and I mean everyone has a piece of this earth on which their ancestors have lived for at least a thousand years or so. It does not matter whether a person is a Sindhi in Pakistan or a Flemish speaker in Belgium. I can guarantee you that their ancestry in those lands will go back several generations. If this was not so then why do we have different languages and why do people look a certain way in different countries? There is absolutely nothing wrong with ackowledging the diversity of mankind, providing it is done in a positive manner.

Here in Canada, many of us (like myself) are recent immigrants. We also have people whose ancestors arrived tens or hundreds or many thousands of years ago. (smile) And we are mixing and creating a society that can include everyone, while honouring people's wishes to hold onto some part of their identity they hold dear. (smile) Is everything perfect? Of course not! We are human, and thus imperfect. But we generally believe that we can and should work on building something together for everyone.

Indeed the majority of those in Canada are recent immigrants. The native peoples of North America were unjustly deprived of their rightful homelands.

I fail to see why rejecting the notion of a melting pot society entails being unable to accomodate everyone. A society can still have immigrants while not losing its identity. I'm not opposed to immigration but there is a worry that the native peoples of Europe will become a minority in their ancestral lands.

Actually this is not true. Only Sami people are native in Finland. We all others are immigrants - also we who now call ourselves as Finnish and Europeans. Scientists do not all agree with each other from where we originally are coming from. ;D

What? The Finnish speaking Finns in Finland are not natives to their own country? ^o)

When did the Finns reach Finland and where did they come from? Somehow I doubt it was in recent times and I'm sure it was well before even the Middle Ages. To say the Finns are not native to their own country is unfair to them.

Also Christianity isn´t native religion in Finland. Its a religion of the Swedish occupiers.

And Islam outside Arabia is also the religion of the conquering Arabs?

We can go back to the historical times and find how many of those people, whose we now call themselves as "pure Europeans" have moved to the Europe - so their origin too is something else than "European". We also can remember how big part of the other religions and cultures have had (and still has) to the "European culture" like muslims in the Spain or think about the political and cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire to the Europe and so on.

The majority of those in Europe, just as in Asia have been there for at minimum since the year 500 AD.

I don't deny that Muslims influenced Spain or the Balkans. However we must remember that those lands expelled Muslim invasions by force.

But now back to the topic please. We are not talking here if Europe is multicultural or what ever it is. We are also talking about refugees and our responsibility to take care of the people whose need help and shelter.

Isn´t it a part of the faith of the Christians to help your fellowmen whose are in need, if I have understood it right? Not try to find excuses like "Europe isn´t multicultural" and by them try to keep those people need help outside.

Yes and I think the refugees should be admitted to Europe in as large a number as is possible. I simply worry that it will create problems in the distant future.

 

[sister herb]

All international migrations have caused more or less problems during the history but without them our world would to be very different than its today as well our nations and our history books might be a lot of thinner. If you compare for example what kind of problems Europeans invasions to the America, Australia or to the South Africa caused to its original inhabitans... and now we don´t see it would be possible to resettle all European immigrants back to the good old Europe, right?

But this is one crisis now, and maybe we shouldn´t compare it to the historical migrations. But anyways, the world has always being as a highway where different people have walked back and forth, where different kind of cultures have mixed together. Maybe we just have to be ready to that.

Hmm... Maybe not so clear sentence but I am tired and my brain do not form clear ideas in a foreign language. Good night.

 

[Scimitar]

Hi Johnny,

nice to read you, and your concerns...

...have you tried talking to refugees? we can't really answer for them, sorry.

Scimi

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Hi Johnny,
nice to read you, and youur concerns...
...have you tried talking to refugees? we can't really answer for them, sorry.
Scimi

Yes, others have suggested that and so I did. The first few ignored me just walking past me. But I eventually spoke to a couple from Somalia with a child. He told me (the woman never spoke) that conditions in Somalia were bad, poor, dangerous and that they wanted a better life for themselves and their family. I asked them why they made no attempt to integrate by dressing as we do and they said that their religion decrees tat they must not integrate and that regard must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims. Were they wrong?

 

[Scimitar]

You were wrong to impose dress codes on them... don't you know? Diversity.

Try again.

This time, try not to offend anothers choices like a bigot.

Scimi

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

You were wrong to impose dress codes on them... don't you know? Diversity.
Try again.
This time, try not to offend anothers choices like a bigot.
Scimi

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

 

[sister herb]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

No they weren´t wrong but you was when you decided to ask something like this.

 

[Scimitar]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

Are you seriously attempting to justify your bigotry?

I see you.

Scimi

 

[M.I.A.]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

should have asked them who they were fleeing from, taken it from there.

come on johnny! what do you want from them.


....on a lighter note, my daughters just been learning about l.s. lowry

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

 

[M.I.A.]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

i know the irony is even worse... im sure the last thing you want to say is that they all look the same.


:l

 

[M.I.A.]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

i know the irony is even worse... im sure the last thing you want to say is that they all look the same.


on a side note, two jewish communities have more chance of dressing similarly than two muslim communities.

pot... meet kettle.


:l


the nerve of this one guy.. seriously. i dont know who he is but seriously.



on another side note, attend friday prayer and you will probably see some integration.



although they wear different hats in england. fair play to em really thats like getting dressed for work every day.. effort.




...when ya bin on the forum too long

 

[sister herb]

Does the integrating only means that they have to wear similar clothes like an typical, average European? I see this is a big problem as its very difficult to find how "a typical average European" really wears. Do you want this because then they wouldn´t be so conspicuous on the streets? I am not sure what this to do with the integration. In my country has also had discussions about this matter but in here most of the people means by this word that they have to learn the language and understand the values of the country. It doesn´t mean they have to change similar like we Finnish are or forget their own background or roots of own habits, but they like we too, need to learn to respect each other´s ways of life and religions. Is it bad for the integration if muslims for example keep their old habits and don´t eat ham? Eating ham is quite European habit too (well Jews don´t eat it and they too have strong own habits but we in Europe can´t say anything against Jews or we will be called as the anti-semitics and racists, but about Muslims and their habits we can say what ever - its only the freedom of the speech).

By the way, I have seen that many ladies here like some the African style dresses like Somalian or Congolese. Maybe it will be the next fashion in the Europe. ;D

If not, maybe we Europeans will need some kind of European uniform which all in Europe have to use - like in the Mao´s China.

 

[Scimitar]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

Yeah and Muslim "foreigners" also helped to rebuild your country post world war two draft... your point is moot.

I can see how bigoted you really are.

You don't hav an intellectual premise upon which you can rely here.

Just admit it - you don't like the idea of "foreigners".

Scimi

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Greetings Johnny,


(smile) In a way I agree that newcomers may dress inappropriately when they first arrive in their new home. (laugh) Canadian winters aren't quite the same as tropical rainy seasons, for instance!

(smile) But, you know, I question whether the modern fashions are really quite location-appropriate, either. For instance, is it really sensible for very pale-skinned people to wear little clothing in the North's brief summertime? The skin cancer rates would suggest otherwise…

I've also noticed that generally, over time, people do often adapt their clothing to what is considered the norm in their society. Everyone? No. But many. But of course, there are always some who like to be a bit different. Some people like to wear abayas. Some like goth. Some like fancy suits. (smile) Etc. But is this a bad thing?

(smile) I've tried quite a lot of different clothing styles over time. From a traditional sari, to a flowing african batik outfit, to abayas, to shalwa kameez, to Caucasian-style skirts and tops (mmm… Caucasians from the Caucasus, that is), to skiing snow pants and coats… (smile) as well as various combinations of jeans and tunics and sweaters… Right now, I've found ways to layer shorter dresses over long skirts and long-sleeved T-shirts. And you know what? It's all rather fun!

Here in Canada, we generally don't feel great issues over what people wear. What we really value is that people get along and respect one another. Having superficial differences is not a terrible thing, it's actually quite nice. As MIA rather amusingly pointed out, it's not very enjoyable if everyone is exactly the same.


(smile) May God, the One who Created us all, Open our eyes to the beauty and learning opportunities of difference.