On the contrary. It is love that makes real fatherhood and real sonship. Once this is cleared up, you would be amazed the implications of this on the history of mankind, not to say the history of religions...
Is the bible the word of God
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On the contrary. It is love that makes real fatherhood and real sonship. Once this is cleared up, you would be amazed the implications of this on the history of mankind, not to say the history of religions...
Ramadhan
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Here's what prof. Bart Ehrman said:
At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.
Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian.
"Christianity has never been about the Bible being the inerrant word of God," Ehrman says. "Christianity is about the belief in Christ."
Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.
prof. Ehrman also said this:
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html
At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.
Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian.
"Christianity has never been about the Bible being the inerrant word of God," Ehrman says. "Christianity is about the belief in Christ."
Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.
prof. Ehrman also said this:
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html
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According to the Church, the Gospel is and has always been Jesus himself.
Now, men have used technology to present his portrait. It becomes called 'the Gospel according' to whoever is presenting. Early Christians used the only media technology which was most useful: scrools and writting. When the Codex was invented, the Bible came along. Today, there are more technologies which Christians can use as medium to present their views of him or share their inspirations.
But the Gospel is not a book, or books, or a great CD or DVD, but a person: Jesus.
One who accounters Jesus accounters the Gospel.
Since the Gospel is a person, it can not be contained/preserved properly by a book or any other man made thing. It can only be contained in the conscience and the heart.
One who knows the Gospel in its purity, this one heard it in his conscience and received it in his heart. The Bible will be unsealed for him.
God is most just then, for He has given everyone a heart and a conscience. God makes sure everyone has both.
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So, we agree that the Bible is not the Word of God. It seems that we only disagree over what Jesus as Word of God really means. We Muslims believe that Jesus came into being merely by Allah (swt) saying 'Be!' and he was created. Jesus was the physical manifestation of that creative word proceeding from Allah (swt). In contrast John 1:1 says that the Word, meaning Jesus, was God.
Earlier you wrote, "Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album." From this I understand that the Gospel can only be passed from a rightly guided person to another. I agree that one doesn't arrive at an understanding of the Christian faith by reading the Bible, but rather first has faith and then with this faith as a foundation the words in the Bible can be interpreted according to that faith. I came to my Christian faith as a pre-teenager through listening to Sunday school teachers and preachers. It wasn't until college that I did much if any independent Bible study. The problem with all of this is relying upon someone to guide to the true faith as opposed to some corruption thereof.
Ramadhan
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In Explosive New Book FORGED, Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman Exposes Deceptive and Misleading Forgeries in the New Testament
According to leading biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, many of his contemporaries have it wrong when it comes to the Bible. Instead of calling biblical forgeries what they are—lies—they often fall back on safer scholarly terms, stopping just short of the word “forgery.”
In Forged, Ehrman reveals:
More here
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13/half-of-new-testament-forged-bible-scholar-says/
Ehrman doesn’t confine his critique to Paul’s letters. He challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. He says that none were written by Jesus' disciplies, citing two reasons.
He says none of the earliest gospels revealed the names of its authors, and that their current names were later added by scribes.
Ehrman also says that two of Jesus’ original disciples, John and Peter, could not have written the books attributed to them in the New Testament because they were illiterate.
“According to Acts 4:13, both Peter and his companion John, also a fisherman, were agrammatoi, a Greek word that literally means ‘unlettered,’ that is, ‘illiterate,’ ’’ he writes.
According to leading biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, many of his contemporaries have it wrong when it comes to the Bible. Instead of calling biblical forgeries what they are—lies—they often fall back on safer scholarly terms, stopping just short of the word “forgery.”
In Forged, Ehrman reveals:
- The Apostle Peter was illiterate, and therefore could not have written two letters (1 & 2 Peter) credited to him in the Bible.
- Six of the Pauline letters in the New Testament are forgeries.
- The First Book of Timothy, known to be a forgery, is still used today to oppress women, and provides the Scriptural basis for the Roman Catholic Church’s refusal to ordain female priests.
More here
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13/half-of-new-testament-forged-bible-scholar-says/
Ehrman doesn’t confine his critique to Paul’s letters. He challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. He says that none were written by Jesus' disciplies, citing two reasons.
He says none of the earliest gospels revealed the names of its authors, and that their current names were later added by scribes.
Ehrman also says that two of Jesus’ original disciples, John and Peter, could not have written the books attributed to them in the New Testament because they were illiterate.
“According to Acts 4:13, both Peter and his companion John, also a fisherman, were agrammatoi, a Greek word that literally means ‘unlettered,’ that is, ‘illiterate,’ ’’ he writes.
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Well, how does God say 'Be'? Does He has a mouth, and a voice, or....how does he do that exactly? Do you know?
Brother Amigo Must realize that Allah's (swt) Power is Beyond imagination
Allah (swt) has created human in 4 Forms
1. Adam from Mud
2. Eve from Adam
3. Me, you and Us from parents
4. Jesus without father
If Jesus is God because he dont have a father, Adam & Eve deserves the crowne more than him.
However, I see that Brother Amigo needs time to breath so he can realize what we are saying, Brother Amigo, you must be realistic and be logical.
Allah (swt) has created human in 4 Forms
1. Adam from Mud
2. Eve from Adam
3. Me, you and Us from parents
4. Jesus without father
If Jesus is God because he dont have a father, Adam & Eve deserves the crowne more than him.
However, I see that Brother Amigo needs time to breath so he can realize what we are saying, Brother Amigo, you must be realistic and be logical.
'Relying to someone' can mean anything you want and anything you don't want.
The truth is, humans are always relying on someone on whatever they are doing.
What most important is to rely on someone in truth.
No, I don't know the method and means for Allah's (swt) speech. He knows everything about me and will recreate me down to my unique fingertips, but I know so very little of His majestic and glorious Being except for the descriptive '99 Names of Allah' and what the Quran says regarding His nature as in 2:255 and surah Al-Ikhlas.
I haven't read this book, but I have read Prof. Ehrman's book "The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew". My opinion is that he is a great source on the authentic history of the Bible.
Yes, we rely upon others for the source for our respective religions. You ultimately rely upon the veracity and truthfullness of Paul when he claims in Galatians that the Gospel he preached was a direct revelation from God. Likewise, I rely upon Muhammad (saaws) that he spoke the truth and that what he transmitted and was recorded as the Quran was literally the Word of Allah (swt) and that it has been preserved intact for over 1400 years. I also rely upon the recorded hadith and sunnah of Muhammad as the interpretation and application of the Quran to daily life and worship of our Creator.
I asked because you wrote as if you knew.
Christians know, either potentially, or actually, because it is in the seed of the Christian Faith to know. The Word of God if perfect, since it is perfect it is complete, since it is complete, it contains all there is to know. Therefore, there is no answer that can not be answered in Christianity. It is usually only a matter of time for the individual, for man grow up, and he understands as he grow.
We believe the the Word of God is a person, the truth in its fullness and completeness is a person. In conversation with him, any question can be answered. And conversation is proportionate to the degree of respect and friendship. For those whose hearts dwel in love and love is all they are interested about, this is clear.
But for those who are interested in winning arguments, Bible verses are like casino cards to them. So it is not a surprise that the Word of God would be reduced to papers. Things that they can manipulate for thier own games. Like in casinos, the apparent gains are only a symbol of the loss of value they are growing.
Life is in love, and love happens between persons.
Ramadhan
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As a catholic, I suppose you rely on popes and priests as people in truth to tell you what truth is.
Not sure if you are aware that many of your men on truth are paedophiles, rapists, gluttons, thieves, corruptors, liars, etc.
Just google: bad popes and priests
Meanwhile, muslims have literal and inerrant words of God in the Qur'an as the truth.
Ramadhan
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Before we get sidetracked, let's compile what christians say about bible:
In short, christians are saying that bible (and gospel) is not word of God, and in fact, nothing, and not necessary at all.
Who are we to argue with them?
In short, christians are saying that bible (and gospel) is not word of God, and in fact, nothing, and not necessary at all.
Who are we to argue with them?
Here is a quote from the Catechism which gives a relative introduction on how it works:
A short quote considering what is on the page where I took it from, for I do not wish to blind anyone with too much light. Not that people don't do it themselves already by abusing the Bible like Paul used to abuse Sacred Scripture, consuming it only to get what he needed to feed his hate for the Church. At the end, it was indicated to him, that his eyes are blinded with too much light of the Word of God and he needed the Church to heal his eyes and make his eyes see properly. The Church is a mother, she knows how to feed her offspring and would never give them meat while they don't have teeth yet, for this would turn food into poison and kill them instead of saving them. She feeds them well, the fact that some turn out to be ungrateful and do evil does not remove the good ones from the blessedness they live in.
However, if a calm conscience tells someone that their eyes are strong enough for elaborations of that quote, they may click here. At the end, it shows connection with 'religious matters'.
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Grace Seeker
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Which makes it all the more sad that so few are actually guided by it rather than the centuries of tradition that overlay it. "Though a majority of the followers of Sunni and Shiite sects show apparent respect to the physical papers where the 114 chapters of the Quran is recorded or listen to its recitation with utmost respect, for centuries they have adapted sectarian teachings contradictory to the Quran. They read it without understanding; they listen to it without hearing. Even if they understand its message, they prefer following the teachings of their scholars or hearsay narratives falsely attributed to Muhammad." (source: The Quran: A Reformist Translation, Edip Yuksel)
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Edip the reformist really understands the Muslim mind!
Ramadhan
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So to summarize what Amigo the christian has said in this thread (and to emphasize what Prof. Bart Ehrman concluded from his extensive research):
As a christian, you don't have to believe in bible and you have to reject it as the word of god (because as amigo said, the word of god is jesus pbuh, not the bible). As a christian all you have to do is to believe that jesus is god who let himself killed to be able to forgive human sins, and anything else is inconsequential.
As a christian, you don't have to believe in bible and you have to reject it as the word of god (because as amigo said, the word of god is jesus pbuh, not the bible). As a christian all you have to do is to believe that jesus is god who let himself killed to be able to forgive human sins, and anything else is inconsequential.
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I edited this video about a year ago, it's someone who went through all these questions.
You can find the full vid here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY
You can find the full vid here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY
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