is voting really haram?

[Misbah0411]

it's unfortunate to see that almost all the Muslim countries are ruled by kings and dictators and they're reluctant to give the right to their people to elect their rulers. I see a strategic planning behind this campaign against democracy and islamization of democracy. some scholars who are spreading this hatred on internet appear to be the part of this planning..

what was the fault of Mr mursi? Was he not determined to implement shariah laws in Egypt..?

crux of this matter is that islamization of democracy in Egypt rang the bell for the kings and dictators.

This is why the kuffar use a double standard and are the biggest hypocrites when they talk about "freedom and Democracy" and giving the people the right to vote. Algeria had elections in the 90's and the people voted for Shariah and also in Egypt just a few years ago with Morsi coming into power only for disbelievers hating the decision of the people and turning a blind eye when the military took over by force the "will of the People". Where was the outrage from the U.S.? Nothing. Like I said before, the disbelievers hate Islam and will undermine it covertly and fight it overtly.

 

[Misbah0411]

@misbah 0411

So you think it is kufr..?

And the magnitude of your fatwa applied on a large number of Muslims.

All the muslim countries are the members of UN and you know every member is given the power of voting, moreover. All the laws are man made...?

Do you think Saudi Arab is also involved in kufr...?

One of the nullifiers of Islam is: Supporting and assisting the disbelievers against the Muslims. The proof for this is Allah's statement:

51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). Surah Maidah

 

[Bhabha]

If you say that voting is Kufr, because it is for "Kufrs", then please refrain from paying TAXES as well to these governments because you are actually supporting the Kufr things they do. Moreover, please refrain from asking for financial help, going to their universities, etc. etc. etc. Honestly, it just gets keeping more and more ridiculous, are we actually becoming the highly intolerant identity that Western countries are DRAWING about Muslims? If you say to someone for long enough that they are "this" and "that", then eventually that person will start to think they are this... and they are that...

 

[Bhabha]

Caliphs were not necessarily elected on the basis of a democratic general opinion.
There however were Shura councils involved that reached a consensus on the who the Caliph would be.

The current system of "democratic voting" is not the only system of voting, reaching consensus is similar. I believe the question was asked as to whether "voting" and thus the general question of voting is haram.


I am actually kind of disgusted people continue to create "haram" and "halal" and haraming EVERYTHYING they can find -_-;
*not meant to snap at you*

Why don't people just live in an IGLOO and stop using the internet, it was made by KUFRS.

 

[Cpt.America]

There isn't enough Muslims to change the forms of governments in Western Countries. Secondly, how many who call themselves Muslims would even vote to establish Shariah where they live. From the commentators on this forum, it is likely discouraging.

At the same time, Muslims have to follow sharia, but nonmuslims do not. If we live in a nonmuslim nation we cannot impose sharia on a nonmuslim. But Allah's law is the perfect law and this must be every Muslim's belief. As such we have to support those aspects or trends in government which are in line with or do not contradict with Islamic rules and values, and denounce those that do.

That being said, it is not our business to make a nonmuslim nation follow Islamic law, but we should make it our business to spread Islam so that nonmuslim nation, if Allah wills, is no longer nonmuslim, and thereafter will follow Allah's laws.

In the matter of a Muslim state however, this shouldn't even be a question. There is no excuse for anti-Islamic policy in a Muslim country.

 

[Cpt.America]

The current system of "democratic voting" is not the only system of voting, reaching consensus is similar. I believe the question was asked as to whether "voting" and thus the general question of voting is haram.


I am actually kind of disgusted people continue to create "haram" and "halal" and haraming EVERYTHYING they can find -_-;
*not meant to snap at you*

Why don't people just live in an IGLOO and stop using the internet, it was made by KUFRS.

I understand, I was just clarifying that people have different perceptions of what 'voting' means due to associated connotation (in case anyone's missed it)
Its become a bit of a buzz word, and it seems that people like to argue about it instead of constructively explaining their positions with evidences. Which is unfortunate. We all would like to be educated and corrected if we are in error.

Anyway,
Ultimately there are bigger issues to worry about in the Ummah right now anyway, and we should consult a scholar on these matters of Fiqh.

 

[Bhabha]

I understand, I was just clarifying that people have different perceptions of what 'voting' means due to associated connotation (in case anyone's missed it)
Its become a bit of a buzz word, and it seems that people like to argue about it instead of constructively explaining their positions with evidences. Which is unfortunate. We all would like to be educated and corrected if we are in error.

Anyway,
Ultimately there are bigger issues to worry about in the Ummah right now anyway, and we should consult a scholar on these matters of Fiqh.

Also... I totally apologized if I sounded like I was a snapping turtle @_@

For clarifications,

Voting that is being seen in current "democratic" practices (though democracy is not really implemented.... anyhow) is not the only kind of voting.

People "vote" to come and reach a consensus, for example polls in order to see what the majority of people are thinking about in the population, classify as actual votes, "voting" to reach a consensus, it is just seeing and understanding what the general majority has to say about something and it differs from place to place. For example, in Canada we vote based on what the smaller candidates are near our electoral district, our voting AFFECTS us indirectly AND directly, because even if we do not vote, we are indirectly complicit in having allowed the larger candidate to bring it a bigger pool of voters.

So, abstaining from voting is actually voting as well.

Let's say...

Candidate 1 wants to legalize marijuana
Candidate 2 wants to legalize homosexual marriage
Candidate 3 wants to increase military budgets

You don't vote at all.

Candidate 1 received 20 votes
Candidate 2 received 25 votes
Candidate 3 received 30 votes

15 people decided not to vote....

Candidate 3 received the most vote and as such will implement increases in military budgets.... which end up directly affecting people in MUSLIM countries (this is how it's been playing out....)

You and the 14 people could have voted... and chosen a lesser alternative

For example if you and 14 people,

Candidate 1 received 35 votes
Candidate 2 received 25
Candidate 3 received 30....

Legalization of marijuana, (now let's be pragmatic) what does the legalization of Marijuana do? It's not just about "smoking" weed.... let's refrain from just think about this, it is about other products that have nothing to do with "smoking it", which become legalized as well. For example.. hemp paper, less destructive in terms of its production, better suited for actual disintegrating into the earth once it's been thrown in the garbage and SUSTAINABLE. What other things? Oh, the decrease in crime rates, smuggling and the "drug" war, that has been a giant producer in profiling and racializing people who are suspected of harboring drugs... I might go on a tangent here, but I hope that the point is being made.

Should the Muslim community choose not to vote, because it's "haram", does it not also make sense that any individuals who refrained from voting also refrain from getting benefits that come from a government that is Kufr as well? Simply because voting is "haram?" Also, just because you choose not to vote, does not mean that the choice you made (i.e not voting) will not have an impact on the outcomes of that voting in the first place. Sure, I might not vote, but if I didn't vote and someone gets elected that is HORRIBLE, it is on me, for having allowed that possibility to begin with, therefore in abstaining from voting, I made it possible for an individual to get into power.

 

[Misbah0411]

And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)

 

[Bhabha]

And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)

You clearly have no knowledge of how actual politics works, Obama has nothing to do with the fight against Muslims and Islam, as this has been a long standing problem between the West and Muslims before the creation of the United States in the first place. Just because you call something "modernist deviancy" does not add legitimacy in the words you are also spouting, because you are using modernist words in the first place. Before Obama came into power, these missiles and "precision" weapons had already been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. So to blame it all on Obama is a little counter intuitive.

Secondly, it is like when you donate to an organization. I see a LOT of Muslim organizations asking for donations, but where does that money go? Is it my problem to be preoccupied as to whether they are using this money for self gain? Or for things that are beneficial to the Muslim community? Do not tell me that ALL Muslim organizations actually help Muslims, I have yet to see a single one that actually offered me, a Muslim a helping hand when I asked in times of need. However, it is not our problem what happens after we donate or what happens after we vote, but that we voted with the intention of ameliorating things and not making them worse. What are you going to do as a Muslim in countries like this? Oh wait, also in countries that are Muslim as well. Most, if not all countries engaging in voting practices because not all countries are ruled by a benevolent King who wants the best for their kingdom. That's the reality, is that people want to have a choice and to be involved in putting OR removing someone who is managing their tax money and affecting their daily lives, whether it is the municipal construction of a park in your vicinity or whether it is someone increasing the budget for arms. The reality is that, if you are working in this country, you are paying de facto tax money that goes into the hands of people who are put in place to run and make decisions based on that money. You are responsible for their actions in a way, whether you like it or not, because you pay them to function. Unless of course you don't pay taxes and live off welfare checks, then you are also receiving money from a government you have decided isn't good enough to receive your political decision, but who is good enough to provide you with maintenance. Eitherway, you are in the West and even if you go to the non-West, it's a similar situation. In Saudi, unless you are a Saudi citizen you are not helped by the government and it is a Muslim country, the keeper of Mecca. Similar in other countries.

So what are you going to do? Sit at home.... and do nothing to ameliorate a situation? To change policies, even if just the wording?

 

[Serinity]

so how would we safely establish Shariah Law? I mean, USA and Russia are bombing Syria, and preventing nations from having Shariah Law.

They say they come with peace, but they kill people in order to bring their democracy which is cancer.

 

[Bhabha]

so how would we safely establish Shariah Law? I mean, USA and Russia are bombing Syria, and preventing nations from having Shariah Law.

They say they come with peace, but they kill people in order to bring their democracy which is cancer.

It isn't democracy that is the cancer. The USA and Russia are bombing Syria because there is an increasing view of intolerance against Muslims that is spiraling like antisemitism spiraled in Europe and erupted in World War II.... this is the cycle, and remember that nothing happens that Allah has not willed it to happen already. We will see increasing problems between countries, because history repeats itself, over and over, or when another "community" pops up and is constructed as threatening in the eyes of the Christian West... however, I do not see another community being constructed as threatening at the moment.

It is not about establishing Sharia law, it is about establishing policies that ALL Muslims in these countries to be governed autonomously, to modify the direction that policies are taking shape and to diminish the xenophobic mentality that cripples relationships between communities. We forget that other communities were also viewed in the same light in Europe for CENTURIES, such as the Jewish communities, the Roma people and the Irish, where the Roma continued to be viewed but are working towards leveling the playing field in terms of politics. If we allow politicians to play with words that feed of Islamophobia because we do not want to participate in politics, we are allowing this cycle to continue.

I also think that Muslims need to remind people who were also victimized by European policies of the atrocities that took shape, such as violent pogroms against the Jewish communities because of increased intolerance... We need to remind people who were colonized, such as South Americans, about the atrocities that happened and continue to happen. Muslims need to unite first, before they attempt to implement ANYTHING worthy of change, but Muslim division is rampant in our communities... from people who are labeled "modernist" to "extremists" to "shia" to "sunni" to etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. If we have a crippled community, it will be easier to divide and conquer. But if the community is strong and united based on similarities as opposed to differences, it will be difficult to overcome this.

 

[Serinity]

It isn't democracy that is the cancer. The USA and Russia are bombing Syria because there is an increasing view of intolerance against Muslims that is spiraling like antisemitism spiraled in Europe and erupted in World War II.... this is the cycle, and remember that nothing happens that Allah has not willed it to happen already. We will see increasing problems between countries, because history repeats itself, over and over, or when another "community" pops up and is constructed as threatening in the eyes of the Christian West... however, I do not see another community being constructed as threatening at the moment.

It is not about establishing Sharia law, it is about establishing policies that ALL Muslims in these countries to be governed autonomously, to modify the direction that policies are taking shape and to diminish the xenophobic mentality that cripples relationships between communities. We forget that other communities were also viewed in the same light in Europe for CENTURIES, such as the Jewish communities, the Roma people and the Irish, where the Roma continued to be viewed but are working towards leveling the playing field in terms of politics. If we allow politicians to play with words that feed of Islamophobia because we do not want to participate in politics, we are allowing this cycle to continue.

So spreading policies that are Islamic as much as possible, in which will end with the whole Shariah Law being implemented?

 

[Bhabha]

So spreading policies that are Islamic as much as possible, in which will end with the whole Shariah Law being implemented?

What would be the final purpose of imposing Sharia? Would it be to ameliorate the relationship between communities or would it be for the purposes of imposing religious rulings on people who do not follow Islam? Because we have no right to impose religious rulings on ANYONE, this would be taking the same path that the Roman empire took through inquisitions.

The Shariah laws that were imposed throughout the Islamic empires allowed communities to have their own autonomous rulings, but worked to implement an overarching design, for example it did not implement on women that the wearing of the hijab was compulsory, but that the behavior of people in public spaces would not be one that would go against Islamic teachings in order that the public sphere would be one where all religions felt safe and comfortable. Proper behavior between man and woman for example does NOT go against the teachings of other religions. To demand that ALL women of all religions wear hijab is to impose a view that is more internal to that person, such as also asking women to remove their hijab. However, if there was a consensus on clothing that would be appropriate for all to wear and would not cause someone else to feel uncomfortable, this is important, for example making the wearing of short shorts not allowed in public spaces, or kissing in public spaces, or holding hands with someone that is not your spouse. The same thing could be made of talking about each others religions, to maintain a level of harmony, neither Muslim, nor Christian, nor Jew, nor Hindu should discuss the religion of others in a derogatory way, as this would cause tensions.

Like these kind of rulings, for example could be slowly implemented to mediate the relationships between people. For example, as a Muslim political leader in a community, they could work towards increasing prayer spaces for ALL religions, whether it be Muslims, Christians, Catholics. So that those who are not Muslim can see that even a Muslim can watch for their best interest and protect their right to religious freedom. As a Muslim political leader, increase for example financial help to both Halal and Kosher restaurants and regions that perhaps designate regions that could be free from alcohol in order to allow for a safe environment. As a Muslim leader, perhaps also work towards modifying bathroom spaces that could implement nifty showers for people to be in whudu, it would be beneficial to ALL people who would want to clean themselves after going to the restrooms. To encourage cleanliness.

Policies need to start soft, small and work towards making spaces of communication, NOT be directed towards managing the life of people, but towards managing the communication and relationships so that society could be fruitful and not resentful.

 

[Misbah0411]

You clearly have no knowledge of how actual politics works, Obama has nothing to do with the fight against Muslims and Islam, as this has been a long standing problem between the West and Muslims before the creation of the United States in the first place. Just because you call something "modernist deviancy" does not add legitimacy in the words you are also spouting, because you are using modernist words in the first place. Before Obama came into power, these missiles and "precision" weapons had already been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. So to blame it all on Obama is a little counter intuitive.

I know exactly how politics works. And Obama is just one of the continuing line of Presidents who fight Islam and Muslims. Bush before him also. It is his policy to continue the war. What's the matter I offended you because of your love for Obama? I gave you in my first post in this discussion how the greatest generation of Muslims selected their leader. You came out and said that voting is permissible and saying differently is "bidah". In another thread you said that women cannot be religious leaders but can be political leaders. Where is your evidence? I find it hard that you want to do a thesis for a doctoral degree with evidences but talk through your whims and desires when it comes to Islam. Produce your proof if you speak the truth.

 

[Misbah0411]

What would be the final purpose of imposing Sharia? Would it be to ameliorate the relationship between communities or would it be for the purposes of imposing religious rulings on people who do not follow Islam? Because we have no right to impose religious rulings on ANYONE, this would be taking the same path that the Roman empire took through inquisitions.

So are you saying there is no purpose to implementing Shariah Law in this day and age?

 

[Zafran]

So are you saying there is no purpose to implementing Shariah Law in this day and age?

Like Isis?

 

[Zafran]

And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)

You shouldn't be living in the US in the first place - If you hate it so much you need to leave.

 

[Misbah0411]

Like Isis?

No like what all Muslims should be striving to establish. Are you also like those who say Shariah isn't necessary anymore?

 

[Misbah0411]

You shouldn't be living in the US in the first place - If you hate it so much you need to leave.

I was born here and am a revert. Where would I go? Why do you love Dar ul Kufr so much? Did your parents make hijrah to that land?

 

[Zafran]

I was born here and am a revert. Where would I go? Why do you love Dar ul Kufr so much? Did your parents make hijrah to that land?

You claim to live in "dar al kufr" - so if you find yourself in Dar al Kufr where is Dal al Salam? Isnt that where your meant to make Hijra to?