Islam and Apostasy

[wilberhum]

Syed Nizam
There are no such things like a PERFECT plans, the best there are only PERFECT intentions. I like that! Kind of sorry that you don’t want to debate. I find it an interesting and informative process. But surly it is not every one’s desire to engage.
Wishing you the best,
Wilber

 

[Syed Nizam]

Islamic Kuri, honestly do u ever think that ur statement should ever be considered as being Islamic? I do believe that the question whether the Apostates should be put to death have been answered in the previous message in this thread. However, just for a matter of thought, please consider this:

1. The Prophet (pbuh) have NEVER EVER put any Apostates to death in his life time. Surely, he has all the power in his hands if he surely believes in that kind of judgement. So, why dont he?

2. There are even various verses in the Quran which clearly stated that all of us should not ever asked for speedy doom for the Apostates.

046.035
Therefore patiently persevere, as did (all) messengers of inflexible purpose; and be in no haste about the (Unbelievers). On the Day that they see the (Punishment) promised them, (it will be) as if they had not tarried more than an hour in a single day. (Thine but) to proclaim the Message: but shall any be destroyed except those who transgress?

074.011
Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!-

003.085
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

003.086
How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

003.087
Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind;-

003.088
In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

003.089
Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

But, SURELY the MOST COMPELLING revelations is REVEALED in the following verse:

003.090
But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

003.091
As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.

How could the Verse 003.090 be possible if the punishment of those Apostates are a certain death? Those who rejects faith, then repented, then goes on rejecting the faith for the second time? I think I do have to the earlier posts in this Thread that death sentences for Apostates is only permissible within some limit only if some preconditions existed (such if they poses a threat to the ummah in general etc.).

I do believe when the prophet reminds us in his last summons on the reference to the Quran & As-Sunnah should be made precedence above all.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Wilber,
This isn't for me, but it contains relevant points. If you want to reply to my present post, please do so after replying to the previous one.

When I talk about an Islamic State, I’m talking about countries that conceder themselves Islamic and the world at large conceders them Islamic.

Muslims are all agreed that there is no state in the world that can be described truly as an Islamic state, because we know that the Islamic state is a khilafa. I already said this in my last post.

I’m not talking about some mythological state that does not and did not exist.

As I already told you the Islamic state has existed for centuries; it was after the Muslim lands were ravaged and destroyed by invading forces that the Muslim world fell into chaos and disarray.
The practices of Muslims cannot be taken as evidence against Islam unless it can objectively be demonstrated that they are founded upon Islamic teachings.
Also, every country has problems and none is perfect. It is inherently fallacious to take these problems as evidence against the specific religion or ideology behind the state. If you say that country X forbids murder can I say, "Well I don't want to talk about your mythological ideals. I want to talk about reality - the reality is murders still are committed in the country!" The comment has no relevance.

This thread is about Islamic law and what Islam says. It is not 'mythyological', it is our religion. I see that many Non-muslims like yourself have a very difficult time comprehending the plain and simple fact that we follow Islam as it was revealed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, not how this Muslim acts or that Muslim acts. If you have a problem with a specific country you can discuss that elsewhere. From your posts in this thread I am assuming you have a problem with Islamic law and how an Islamic state is to be run. If not then please be clear - Is your objection against Islam or the malpractice of some Muslims ?

When I talk about the excessive taxes laved or any other item that I conceder discriminatory, I’m talking about what was practiced, not what is prescribed.

I quoted for you the ruling of a leading Muslim Judge in the eleventh century, speaking on what was being practiced in his time. He was the judge and he was giving the rulings, and the ruling was that the taxes were to be negotiated with the non-muslim minorities. Now if you are so closeminded that you can't accept that this was the reality of the Islamic state in that period, that's your problem. But here we have explicit historical evidence which debunks your claims that non-muslim minorities have always been oppressively taxed in the Muslim state.

When I talk about Suria Law, I’m talking about how it is implemented and used

Then you have absolutely no understanding of Shari'ah law. Shari'ah law is based on what is in the Qur'an and Sunnah BY DEFINITION. if you are talking about the laws of a particular country, then by definition you are NOT talking about Shari'ah law. I strongly suggets you learn the definitions of the terms before you use them.

So if you want to talk about the “Real World” and not “Fantasy Land”, I would enjoy the challenge.

Please keep your insults to yourself. This forum is for respectful dialogue; your comments about Islamic law being 'fantasy land' are unwanted, unncessary and unproductive.

Kind of sorry that you don’t want to debate. I find it an interesting and informative process.

It is only such when both sides are willing to learn and correct their views. You are not an expert on Islamic law so you should be willing to law the truth and rationality behind the law rather than advancing your own negative and misinformed percpetion about Islam.

Regards

 

[j4763]

How can someone who leaves Islam be put to death, how does the prosecutor know that the person will not come back to Islam a few years later?

 

[Syed Nizam]

Yes Allah knows. But how do u know that they WILL come back to Islam? U dont!

074.011
Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!-

That is the saying of Allah, Islamic Kuri. So, can we please DONT play God here?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi j4763,
Thanks for your post.

How can someone who leaves Islam be put to death, how does the prosecutor know that the person will not come back to Islam a few years later?

You are correct; I've explained this issue in the first post in the thread - no one is immediately executed for changing their religious beliefs. Please read the first post in the thread and then if something is still unclear, feel free to ask.

Regards

 

[wilberhum]

Ansar Al-‘Adi
If no Islamic State exists, what is the point of any discussion?
As I already told you the Islamic state has existed for centuries. Would you provide a time frame?
If you have a problem with the term “mythological', how about “historical”? Again, I would need a time frame.
I am assuming you have a problem with Islamic law and how an Islamic state is to be run.I have no problems if we are talking about laws in a nonexistent place. There you can make any law you want and no one will be affected.
Then you have absolutely no understanding of Shari'ah law. Of course I don’t. As I said “I’m talking about how it is implemented and used”. So I would assume that no place in the world does Shari'ah law exist in its proper form. If so, then there is no discussion because the answer to every question is “They got the law wrong
“So if you want to talk about the “Real World” and not “Fantasy Land”, I would enjoy the challenge.” An Insult? I address what exists and you address what doesn’t exist. I feel insulted, deceived. You play with the rules of the game, then say you loose.
It is only such when both sides are willing to learn and correct their views. But then one needs to know what is being discussed before one can learn. If I think you are teaching me French when it is really German, what learning do you think will take place?

The actuality of the situation is I’m discussing practice and you are discussing theory. I have neither the knowledge nor desire to discuss theory. If you want to discuss what is practiced, I’m interested. I assume that you are not. So unless I here differently, I will assume that our dialog is done.

But before we drop the debate, more that anything else I really would love to have an example of one of your “Rational proofs". I experienced someone else that used that term. Repeated requests for a definition or example from multiple people were always left unanswered. So I would truly appreciate and example.
Will you provide me with one?
Wilber

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Wilber,

Ansar Al-‘Adi
If no Islamic State exists, what is the point of any discussion?

The point of discussion is to discuss what Islam teaches with regard to apostasy and what an Islamic state should implement. Your comment is like saying to someone who has a design for a new invention, "Well if none of them exist, what is the point of discussin your design?" It is a non-sequitor logical fallacy. The reason we should discuss these issues is to spread the true understanding of what Islam teaches, educate people to clear their misconceptions about Islamic law, and implement Islamic law more accurately in our Muslim countries. Wanting to only discuss what is being practiced is illogical because no one is perfect; everyone makes mistakes but that doesn't mean that we should reject the system they are trying to follow entirely.

As I already told you the Islamic state has existed for centuries. Would you provide a time frame?

Sure. The Islamic state has existed since the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh until around the 16th century - this isn't to say that all the Muslim countries throughout that period were perfect; obviously the best was the state during the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the four rightly guided khalifa's, but after that they always had there good points and their bad points.

If you have a problem with the term “mythological', how about “historical”?

Mythological implies that it is a figment of one's imagination. Historical means that it has existed, so obviously I would prefer the latter.

I am assuming you have a problem with Islamic law and how an Islamic state is to be run.I have no problems if we are talking about laws in a nonexistent place. There you can make any law you want and no one will be affected.

But if someone made a law that said theft is legal, I would object to the law in theory and in practice.

Then you have absolutely no understanding of Shari'ah law. Of course I don’t.

Then you shouldn't use the term to mean something that it doesn't mean.

So I would assume that no place in the world does Shari'ah law exist in its proper form.

In its complete form. In many places some aspects are being implemented others are not. There is obviously a lot of room for improvement.

I address what exists and you address what doesn’t exist.

Islamic law exists; it is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

The actuality of the situation is I’m discussing practice and you are discussing theory.

The title of this thread is Islam and Apostasy. I hope you can appreciate the difference between that and 'Afghanistan and Apostasy' or 'Sudan and Apostasy' or 'Malaysia and Apostasy' or 'Kuwait and Apostasy'. We are discussing Islam here.

But before we drop the debate, more that anything else I really would love to have an example of one of your “Rational proofs". I experienced someone else that used that term. Repeated requests for a definition or example from multiple people were always left unanswered. So I would truly appreciate and example.
Will you provide me with one?

I already did in this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/276392-post91.html

Regards

 

[wilberhum]

Ansar Al-‘Adi
Wanting to only discuss what is being practiced is illogical because no one is perfect;
Now I think it is illogical dismiss what is be practiced.
Obviously the best was the state during the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the four rightly guided khalifa's,
I will do some research on that. That will obviously take some time, but I will be back. Either with an apology or with some unpleasant facts.
But if someone made a law that said theft is legal, I would object to the law in theory and in practice.
But what difference would it make if no government in the world recognized the law?
Then you shouldn't use the term to mean something that it doesn't mean. (Shari'ah law)
Please point out where I incorrectly used the term.
I must apologize; I missed your response about “Rational proofs”.
Since the answer is a pointer to another post that points to another post, it will take some time to digest. But as Arnold says “Ill be back”.
Wilber

 

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, I am not sure if this has been addressed before or not.

What about the person who converted away from Islam to a different faith (Or no faith at all), who moves away to a non-Muslim area.
Are they still subject to the Islamic penalty for apostasy?

A second question, just who is allowed to carry out the punishment? Who isn’t allowed to carry out the punishment?


Ansar Al-‘Adl, I understand you are presenting your posts in light of what Islam teaches and not trying to address the state of Islam as it exists today.

That being said, is it still fair to punish folks who have never had the chance to fairly judge their choice in a faith before they chose?

Are there any provisions in Islamic teachings that allow any allowances to be made for such a case?

Say a child grows to the age of 17 and publicly makes a commitment and swears his allegiance to Islam. The child has never been more than a 100 miles from home. The country he lives in is Afghanistan and in his area there is no one to teach about what the Bible states.

Sometime later the young man meets some American soldiers and they invite him to study with them. The young man agrees to study with them.

Then, perhaps, the, now 18 year old, man decides he agrees more with the teachings of the Bible than the Qur’an and converts.

The message that really influenced the young man’s decision was the answer he received from the Christian soldier/teacher “Yes, when the Bible state’s that if you reject Jesus as Lord, you, young man, are condemned to Hell”.

Does the young man have to die if he doesn’t reject his new found faith in what the Bible teaches?

What of the one who converted the young man, is he to be punished? If yes, then what is the prescribed punishment?

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[syilla]

have you read the 1st thread... i think it can explain to some of your questions.

 

[glo]

Hi all

I have tried to read this entire thread as best I can.

I understand (I think!) what it says in the Qu'ran about apostates and death penalty.
Personally, I am appalled and deeply distressed about it! What kind of religion has to prevent it's followers from ever leaving by threatening them with death?? :heated:
(There is no need to answer that question. It is purely rhetorical.)

For now there is just one question that seems to remain unanswered in this thread (or perhaps have missed it).

I live in the UK, where the secular law clearly forbids the death penalty (as somebody has mentioned before)
So, if a Muslim living in the UK apostates, what happens then???

Do any of you know anybody like that? What happened to them after they apostated?
I would love to know - for my peace of mind!

Just as I was gettin to respect Islam for it's peaceful and caring attitude, I come across this issue ...
I am so sad!:'(

 

[aamirsaab]

...I live in the UK, where the secular law clearly forbids the death penalty (as somebody has mentioned before)
So, if a Muslim living in the UK apostates, what happens then???

Then his sentence is determined by the law of the land on which he lives. In the case you provided the person would be commiting no crime. However, certain "muslims" like to take matters into their own hands by trying to implement sharia law (not that sharia law is bad, no, just when it's not the law of the land and people try to enforce it on others)

Just as I was gettin to respect Islam for it's peaceful and caring attitude, I come across this issue ...
I am so sad!:'(

Care for an explanation?

 

[glo]

Care for an explanation?

I should probably not answer right now, because I feel really emotionally about this at the moment, and my reply may not be too rational! :X

It's just that threatening believers with death, should they ever wish to leave the faith, seems such a cruel thing to do!
If a Christian friend left the faith (or should I say 'when', because it does
happen), I would help him/her, pray for him/her and love him/her all the more!

I won't say any more on this, until I feel I can rationally deal with this.

But you haven't really anwered my question:
Sharia? What's that? Does that mean other Musim believers may take it upon themselves to kill the apostate anyway, against British law?

What if the person's life is spared? Are they cast out of the Muslim community? Divorced? Separated from their children?
:-\

 

[------]

Sharia? What's that?

The Islamic Law.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Wilber,

Now I think it is illogical dismiss what is be practiced.

I am not dismissing it, I am saying it is wrong and needs to be corrected so that it is in accordance with Islamic teachings.

Obviously the best was the state during the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the four rightly guided khalifa's,
I will do some research on that. That will obviously take some time, but I will be back. Either with an apology or with some unpleasant facts.

To help you with your research, I will provide you with some references.
There is some good introuctory material on the Prophet's life here:
Muhammad: The Man & the Message
And more detailed accounts here:
The Islamtoday.Com English section supervised by Sheikh Salman Al-Oadah
The Islamtoday.Com English section supervised by Sheikh Salman Al-Oadah

After reading the material on the websites, I would recommend that you take a look at the resources I have listed here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/education-issues/13373-studying-islam-list-resources.html

But if someone made a law that said theft is legal, I would object to the law in theory and in practice.
But what difference would it make if no government in the world recognized the law?

If they had not implemented it but there was a desire to implement it.

Then you shouldn't use the term to mean something that it doesn't mean. (Shari'ah law)
Please point out where I incorrectly used the term.

You said

When I talk about Suria Law, I’m talking about how it is implemented and used​

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nimrod,
Thank you for your post.

Ansar Al-‘Adl, I am not sure if this has been addressed before or not.

What about the person who converted away from Islam to a different faith (Or no faith at all), who moves away to a non-Muslim area.
Are they still subject to the Islamic penalty for apostasy?

I mentioned in the first post in this thread, that someone who leaves the country will not be hunted down by the Islamic state; he is not disturbing their society so he is of no significance to them. The Islamic state is only concerned with the protection of the society.

A second question, just who is allowed to carry out the punishment? Who isn’t allowed to carry out the punishment?

Only the Islamic state, i.e. the government, is allowed to carry out the punishment. All legal procedures must be directed by the state, no one can take matters into their own hands.

Ansar Al-‘Adl, I understand you are presenting your posts in light of what Islam teaches and not trying to address the state of Islam as it exists today.

That being said, is it still fair to punish folks who have never had the chance to fairly judge their choice in a faith before they chose?

Again, keep in mind the issue of causing harm to society, because that is when the Islamic state takes action. And then on the topic of those who leave Islam because of their doubts or confusion, they are given the opportunity to have their misunderstandings clarified and explained to them. They have the opprtunity to learn and find out which is the true path. Punishment would only happen if they are causing problems to society.

What of the one who converted the young man, is he to be punished? If yes, then what is the prescribed punishment?

There is no prescribed punishment for such actions, in Islamic law. The issue is discretionary.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello glo,
There seems to be a misunderstanding, so I suggest you re-read the first post in this thread. The Islamic state is only concerned with the protection of the society, so someone who is not causing a disturbance to the society is not subject to state actions. And the punishments can only be implemented by the state.

 

[glo]

Hello glo,
There seems to be a misunderstanding, so I suggest you re-read the first post in this thread. The Islamic state is only concerned with the protection of the society, so someone who is not causing a disturbance to the society is not subject to state actions. And the punishments can only be implemented by the state.

Thank you.

That is not what people in my 'leaving the faith' thread have said!!
Clearly there are at least some people here who whole-hearted subscribe to the death penalty idea>
(I don't know how to create a link to it. It is in the basics of Islam folder)

I am still waiting to hear what reaction somebody who does apostate in the UK can expect from their Muslim community??!
I wonder why there are no replies?
Is it just a quiet day in the forum?
Or does apostasy in the UK not happen??? (I find that hard to believe)
Or do people not know what happens?
Or do people not want to say?

 

[snakelegs]

Just as I was gettin to respect Islam for it's peaceful and caring attitude, I come across this issue ...
I am so sad!:'(

i would urge you not to judge islam by the dominant thinking on this forum.