Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[جوري]

I agree with you about the Athanasian Creed (might not actually have been proposed by Athanasius) and the Council of Nicea.

But you can't blame Paul for promoting the trinity doctrine. He had nothing to do with it.

I can blame him for plenty, including how the alleged 'NT' doesn't reconcile at all with the so-called 'OT' aren't they both released to the world courtesy of the same god?

 

[Hugo]

By correcting ,the Quraan is correcting the misconceptions, actually you are wrong there so i disagree, the Quraan never accepted Abraham (pbuh) married his sister, nor Lott and his daughters, the Quraan spoke of what really happened . How could a prophet could do such things? In truth your actually saying God cannot even send perfect message to guide people to him, but rather confuse people.

But where does it say that God can only use perfect people as prophets so ANYONE who is perfect is also a prophet? If we go along this road then we end up saying that God can only use perfect people and that does not seem to make sense given the fall;en world we live in.

 

[Hugo]

The Quran says that incest is forbidden, theres no way prophets of god would go against that even by accident

But explain why - you cannot prove or demonstrate something by just saying it can you? In this case you also have to explain why the Bible compilers added these incidents if they are not true, surely doing so can only make your holy book look unholy? I don't know where this doctrine of perfect prophets comes from, who invented it?

 

[Zafran]

The title of Surah 9 (or one of the titles) translates as "immunity". This refers to immunity from having to keep peace treaties that existed between Muhammed and the various Arab tribes. If there had been a breach of a treaty on the part of those tribes then there would have been no need to claim such immunity. Muhammed's men did exactly as they were instructed to do in Surah 9:5. They gave the pagans a waiting period to consider their course of action. Then they went out and invited the pagans to embrace Islam. If the pagans refused then they were threatened. And if they still refused then they were attacked. Did you think that all of Arabia converted to Islam as a result of peaceful preaching?

First of all your either ignorant or not telling the entire truth on purpose. The prophet pbuh when he got his messege was persectued for 13 years in mecca, there was no fighting in this period - you do know this as this basic history. There were 3 skirmish that took place Badr being the famous one after he migrated to medina. Surah 9 has a context read the entire passage rather focusing on just one verse, thats like me focusing on one verse in the bible - its a total misrepresentation just as you misrepresented the Soloman pbuh story. The treaties were with the pagan arabs and the Jews and guess what they broke the treaties against the muslims when they were in medina. The pagan arabs were far more in number so they wanted exterminate the minority muslim population - but they lost and even then when the prophet came to Mecca he forgave everyone but the idols had to go.

You make it sound like the muslims were

1 - a majority.
2 - never persecuted by the majoirty of pagan arabs who boycotted, tortured and killed the minority muslims for 13 years so much so that prophet had to migrate away from Mecca to medina.
3 - totally ignore the fact that the treaties were brokern by the pagan arabs.

Last but not leaset the surat is al Tauba - any muslim knows what the word Tauba means its The Repentence.

Talk about lying or being plain ignorant.

 

[Hugo]

The only one deluded here is you, you and your fellow Christians. You continuously delude yourself into believing a man died for your sins, no one died for your sins - trust me you will held accountable for every single one of your actions - you're not gonna get away with anything on the Day.

I prefer to trust God and his word. I say again all you have is one man who claimed he hear God's last message but there were no other witnesses and if we exclude historical Islamic incidents its very very hard not to conclude everything else is copied from other earlier books - I have no reason at all to trust that story? So 'trust me' YOU will be held accountable because you have rejected the authentic Biblical witness.

God Al-Mighty the drama you find amongst christians, go on tell us how it afflicts you. Sin does not exist in christianity because your mangod is so Just that he's already forgiven your sins before you even commit them. We don't claim self-righteousness, like I said we're far from perfect, we don't even know for certain wether we'll even enter heaven. Self-righteousness to me is when you claim you're already 'saved', you've got your ticket to heaven and have nothing to worry about. Self-righteousness is when you claim that 'god' has spoken to you and performed miracles on you.

Let us be clear here, you are the one claiming Muslims are better than everyone else indeed that is what the Qu'ran says but I cannot see it in daily life and the Bible expressly says how all of us fall far short of God's standard. One can hardly go to God as a Christian does and confess you sins daily and at the same time be self-righteousness - but I guess from your definition (see my italics) Mohammed was self-righteous?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

But where does it say that God can only use perfect people as prophets so ANYONE who is perfect is also a prophet? If we go along this road then we end up saying that God can only use perfect people and that does not seem to make sense given the fall;en world we live in.

Well there are many examples regarding that

As a muslim i would say this world is created perfect, the sky is perfect, as humans we sleep, we eat, the way the brain works is perfect, day turns to night, night turns to day, how perfect is that? If you look at the character of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) it is perfect! Thats if you study every part of his life rather than just go with the lies such as "why he did this and that?" without doing any research to why he actually did.

I remember speaking to a women who was cursing the Prophet Muhamamd (saw), i was telling her what ever shes saying are all lies, she was basically believing what ever those people who "curese" the prophet (saw), by saying disgusting stuff about him. but then i asked her, have you read the Quraan? or do you anything about the Prophet Muhammad (saw) she replied "no", but from what she was hearing, she didnt bother doing any research, but i guess thats whats the problem with many people today, they dont like to do their research or like to remain ignorant and arrogant.

Anyways, God is perfect, in Islaam he gives himself many names/attributes, i shall mention some and keep in mind these names make one perfect in every way . . .

Al-Malik=The King, The Master, The Sovereign Lord
Al-Quddus=The Holy, The Pure, The Perfect
Al-Muhaymin=The Guardian, The Protector
Al-Alim=The All Knowing, The Omniscient
As sami=The All Hearing
Al Karim=The Bountiful, The Generous
Al Baaith=The Resurrecter
As-samad=The Eternal, The Absolute, The Self-Sufficient

These are just a few ive mentioned, no man or creation of the Allmighty could achieve such names unless God bestows such a character in one.

Allaah speaks to Prophet Muhammad (saw) in this verse :

I really recommend you read Surah Ar-Rahmaan (The Most Glorious) it is the 55th chapter of the Quraan

Anyways i cant mention everything in one post, so hopefully you should try to put the effort to find out yourself why God is perfect and not Imperfect!

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

But where does it say that God can only use perfect people as prophets so ANYONE who is perfect is also a prophet? If we go along this road then we end up saying that God can only use perfect people and that does not seem to make sense given the fall;en world we live in.

Hugo, you have to remember that while you and I may believe we live in a fallen world, Islam teaches that we live in a nuetral world. That all people are born sinless and have the capacity to chose to submit, and thus remain sinless, or to disobey and become marked by sin. But, according to Islam sin is not a given in every person's life; it is a choice. With this background, it is not inconsistent with Islam to imagine that the prophets never sinned, even though we ourselves might balk at the creduality of such a statement.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Hugo, you have to remember that while you and I may believe we live in a fallen world, Islam teaches that we live in a nuetral world. That all people are born sinless and have the capacity to chose to submit, and thus remain sinless, or to disobey and become marked by sin. But, according to Islam sin is not a given in every person's life; it is a choice. With this background, it is not inconsistent with Islam to imagine that the prophets never sinned, even though we ourselves might balk at the creduality of such a statement.

Yes as a christian you may believe that you are born a sinner, whereas muslims we believe we are born sinless, for how a innocent little baby can be born a sinner? The actions of the little innocent being proves he is not a sinner!

That is why there is a heaven and hell, if your born a sinner and have somebody paying for your sins, whats the point of Heaven and hell exactly? As im sure Christians do believe in the Heaven and Hell.

Actually when one sins he is called a sinner, commiting something God forbade him not to do. And ive mentioned previously every prophet was meant to be a rolemodel sent to their people/nation to whom God willed. If you research carefully and look back to all beliefs you will notice how similar they are to Islamic teachings, although not all. As Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of God be on him) was the final messenger but sent for the whole of Mankind!, Not just Muslims but Non-muslims.

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

Just like to add that when God forgives or pardons someone - that sin is erazed. The person is free from that sin - as God is the great pardoner.

peace

 

[M.I.A.]

you have to realise there are like 6 billion people in the world and god makes use of all of them, unfortunately we all misuse each other.

as for being born perfect im not sure, but we are born closest to god or furthest away...that is life and thats the real understanding that god is bigger than all the peoples and all there wills combined.
even if we are put on the closest or the furthest path from god we are still on a path.

to say a person is perfect is to not understand that person, worse still its the superman delusion, that these people changed the world and were not hurt.

god is everyone and no-one, his will is everyone and no-one. but if any of you claim that you are above another in every instance then sooner or later this is proved incorrect. there can be no self rightousness without constant learning and understanding.
there can be no certanty ever.
this is why muslims are best, we are servants and we strive, we are slaves. we are not those that would carry forward the will of god. those are angels.

 

[Hiroshi]

'conscious' or not what is the point of resurrection if there is limited seating in heaven that has already been filled?

If there are no more places reserved in heaven then you can still live forever in a paradise on earth.

The Qur'an says that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)

Do you believe that we have 'souls' a soul and 'consciousness' aren't one in the same!

all the best

The Bible doesn't say: "Adam was given a soul". It says: "Adam became a soul". A soul is a living person (or animal). When the person dies, the soul dies. But the person can live again in the resurrection.

 

[Hiroshi]

First of all your either ignorant or not telling the entire truth on purpose. The prophet pbuh when he got his messege was persectued for 13 years in mecca, there was no fighting in this period - you do know this as this basic history. There were 3 skirmish that took place Badr being the famous one after he migrated to medina. Surah 9 has a context read the entire passage rather focusing on just one verse, thats like me focusing on one verse in the bible - its a total misrepresentation just as you misrepresented the Soloman pbuh story. The treaties were with the pagan arabs and the Jews and guess what they broke the treaties against the muslims when they were in medina. The pagan arabs were far more in number so they wanted exterminate the minority muslim population - but they lost and even then when the prophet came to Mecca he forgave everyone but the idols had to go.

You make it sound like the muslims were

1 - a majority.
2 - never persecuted by the majoirty of pagan arabs who boycotted, tortured and killed the minority muslims for 13 years so much so that prophet had to migrate away from Mecca to medina.
3 - totally ignore the fact that the treaties were brokern by the pagan arabs.

Last but not leaset the surat is al Tauba - any muslim knows what the word Tauba means its The Repentence.

Talk about lying or being plain ignorant.

Well, if I am ignorant then you can put me right can't you?

Surah 9 has the title Al Tauba which as you rightly say means The Repentance. But it is also called Al Bara'ah meaning Immunity.

Surah 9:1 is the source of this title: "A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:"


The Maariful Tafsir pages 307-309 has this commentary:
Therefore, at the beginning of Surah Al-Bara’ah (Al-Taubah), separate injunctions were revealed that covered the four kinds of non-Muslim groups.
The first such group was that of the Quraysh of Makkah who had themselves broken the treaty of Hudaibiyah. Now, they deserved no extra respite. But, since this was the period of ‘sacred months’ during which fighting and killing was forbidden by Allah, therefore, the injunction which covers them appears in the fifth verse of Surah Al-Taubah, that is (So, when the sacred months expire, kill the Mushriks wherever you find them. And catch them and besiege them and sit in ambush for them everywhere. Then, if they repent and establish salah and pay zakah, leave their way. Surely, Allah is most Forgiving, Very Merciful - 9:5). It means that they had, though, forfeited all their rights by breaking the treaty obligation, but observing the sanctity of the ‘sacred months’ was after all necessary, therefore, they should either leave the Arabian Peninsula soon after the ‘sacred months’ expire, or embrace Islam, or be prepared to face war.
Then, there was the second group with whom a peace treaty was made for a specified period of time and they had abided by it. The injunction about them was given in the fourth verse of Surah Al-Taubah:
Except those of the Mushriks with whom you have a treaty, and they have abated nothing of your rights and backed no one against you, so then, fulfill the treaty with them up to their term. Surely, Allah loves the God-fearing (9:4).
This injunction pertained to Banu Damurah and Banu Mudlaj as a result of which they were allowed a respite of nine months.
As for the third and fourth group, only one injunction was revealed to cover both. It has been mentioned in the first and the second verse of Surah Al-Taubah as follows:
Here is a withdrawal (proclaimed] by Allah and His Messenger against those of the Mushriks with whom you have a treaty. So, move in the land freely for four months, and be sure that you can never defeat Allah and that Allah is about to disgrace the disbelievers - (9:1,2).
Thus, according to the first two verses, all those who were covered by some treaty without a fixed time limit, or those with whom there was no treaty, were allowed a respite of four months.
And according to the fourth verse, those who had a treaty for a specified period of time received a respite until it expired and, according to the fifth verse, the Musriks of Makkah got their respite until the ‘sacred months’ expired.
After this public proclamation, the situation was that the first group, that is, the disbelievers of Makkah had to leave the limits of the state by the end of the ‘sacred months,’ that is, the end of the month of Muharram of the Hijrah year 10; and that of the third and fourth groups was the tenth of Rabi’ath-Thani of the Hijrah year 10. Any contravention of this executive order would have rendered the offender liable to face an armed confrontation. Under this arrangement, by the time of Hajj next year, no disbeliever was to remain within state limits. This will appear in verse 28 of Surah Al-Taubah where it has been said: (so, let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-haram after this year of theirs.). And the saying of the Holy Prophet in Hadith (The disbelievers shall not perform Hajj after this year) means precisely this.

 

[جوري]

]If there are no more places reserved in heaven then you can still live forever in a paradise on earth.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to live forever on this earth.. that would be pretty sad actually!

The Qur'an says that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)

Indeed.. however this doesn't mean eternally.. this means in spite of U.S and Israeli might and weaponry and soldiery, still the meek and the righteous will inherit the earth..
follow that up with this also from the Quran:

2:249------------ [SIZE=-1]How many a little company hath overcome a mighty host by Allah's leave! Allah is with the steadfast.

The sad thing is that you have no knowledge of the Quran, how to interpret it, how to put it together for a cohesive picture, yet are coming here to teach Muslims about its contents!

The Bible doesn't say: "Adam was given a soul". It says: "Adam became a soul". A soul is a living person (or animal). When the person dies, the soul dies. But the person can live again in the resurrection.

Well that is unfortunate as I see the bible deficient in many ways, the soul doesn't die, least of which when we are promised immortality be it in heaven or hell (for one to choose wisely their path)

I would love to dedicate more time to teaching you things as sometimes I see a part of you wanting to genuinely learn (but for all the wrong reasons unfortunately) and like wise unfortunately I don't have the time to correct a host of your misconceptions and the end result is also not worth my effort, I prefer to channel it, either learning or teaching other Muslims..

all the best[/SIZE]

 

[Hiroshi]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to live forever on this earth.. that would be pretty sad actually!


Indeed.. however this doesn't mean eternally.. this means in spite of U.S and Israeli might and weaponry and soldiery, still the meek and the righteous will inherit the earth..

The Qur'an refers the reader to the Psalms. Surah 21:105 says: "Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."

This is a direct quote from Psalms 37:29 which says: "My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth and dwell therein forever." So it does mean eternally.

And btw, according to Daniel 2:44 all human government and rulership (including those of the U.S. and Israel) will first be destroyed. The only ruling power will be rulership by God.

 

[جوري]

The Qur'an refers the reader to the Psalms. Surah 21:105 says: "Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."

This is a direct quote from Psalms 37:29 which says: "My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth and dwell therein forever." So it does mean eternally.

And btw, according to Daniel 2:44 all human government and rulership (including those of the U.S. and Israel) will first be destroyed. The only ruling power will be rulership by God.

The Psalms also mention prophet Mohammed by name:
"HIKKOMAMITTAQIM VIKULLO MAHAMADDIM ZEHDUDIVEZEH RAAI BENUTS YARUSHALAM." "His mouth is most sweet: yea he is Muhammad the great. This is my beloved and this is my friend, O' daughter of Jerusalem."

so which part of the Psalms would you like to subscribe to and which part would you like to offer your own rendition to?
The meek shall inherit the earth denotes only that, God's law shall be supreme in the land after the second descent of Jesus (p) but he is only a man and as all men shall taste death and the peace and prosperity the world will know will no longer be, in suret ad dukhan those who are righteous will be caused to die, until there are no good souls left on earth and eventually judgment day will rise upon people so wicked who will be copulating on the streets like donkeys.

So, sorry, if you'd like to offer your own conclusions, offer it only as far as your bible is concerned. The Quran is the criterion, came to abrogate and affirm some of the previous, there is no mention there of living on earth forever!

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

The Psalms also mention prophet Mohammed by name:
"HIKKOMAMITTAQIM VIKULLO MAHAMADDIM ZEHDUDIVEZEH RAAI BENUTS YARUSHALAM." "His mouth is most sweet: yea he is Muhammad the great. This is my beloved and this is my friend, O' daughter of Jerusalem."

so which part of the Psalms would you like to subscribe to and which part would you like to offer your own rendition to?

I don't think that is in the Psalms actually. I believe this is quoting Song of Solomon 5:16.

 

[Hiroshi]

The meek shall inherit the earth denotes only that, God's law shall be supreme in the land after the second descent of Jesus (p) but he is only a man and as all men shall taste death and the peace and prosperity the world will know will no longer be, in suret ad dukhan those who are righteous will be caused to die, until there are no good souls left on earth and eventually judgment day will rise upon people so wicked who will be copulating on the streets like donkeys.

Is that quoting a hadith? Do you know where it is from?

 

[جوري]

Is that quoting a hadith? Do you know where it is from?

http://www.islamworld.net/docs/hour/index.htm


http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophecies/signs_judgment.pdf

http://www.islamworld.net/docs/hour/Four.txt

enjoy

 

[جوري]

I don't think that is in the Psalms actually. I believe this is quoting Song of Solomon 5:16.

So what you are saying is, there are parts of your bible which you take and quite literally and others you choose to discard?

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

http://www.islamworld.net/docs/hour/index.htm


http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophecies/signs_judgment.pdf

http://www.islamworld.net/docs/hour/Four.txt

enjoy

I'm indebted to you.