Islamophobia and atheo-fascism

[tetsujin]

you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.

They haven't posted a thread here.


All the best,


Faysal

 

[جوري]

They haven't posted a thread here.


All the best,


Faysal

perhaps you should seek their communities out as you have sought this Islamic forum (you being an atheist) are surely deft with google & able to crusade against said communities for their isolation and failure to acclimate-- offer them your pearls with that same bravado?

all the best indeed!

 

[tetsujin]

perhaps you should seek their communities out as you have sought this Islamic forum (you being an atheist) are surely deft with google & able to crusade against said communities for their isolation and failure to acclimate-- offer them your pearls with that same bravado?

all the best indeed!

Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal

 

[جوري]

Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal

1- It wouldn't matter.. I don't place value on the opinion of one small minority that can't seem to offer others what it alleges that it stands for!

2- I'd actually love to see your replies on the Amish, Mennonite, Hutterites & Hasidic community forums.. I had no idea that they

had internet communities.. would that make you a liar on top of a hypocrite?

3- and lastly, what exactly would you like to call it? if not a crusade which by definition is tending toward a particular end!

all the best of course

 

[tetsujin]

1- It wouldn't matter.. I don't place value on the opinion of one small minority that can't seem to offer others what it alleges that it stands for!

2- I'd actually love to see your replies on the Amish, Mennonite, Hutterites & Hasidic community forums.. I had no idea that they

had internet communities.. would that make you a liar on top of a hypocrite?

3- and lastly, what exactly would you like to call it? if not a crusade which by definition is tending toward a particular end!

all the best of course

It was enough to ask whether it would satisfy you, I didn't state I had already done so. If the answer to the question doesn't matter why waste your time asking the question? I'm sure you don't believe I cared for the answer.

Why do you accuse me of hypocrisy?

All the best,


Faysal

 

[جوري]

It was enough to ask whether it would satisfy you, I didn't state I had already done so. If the answer to the question doesn't matter why waste your time asking the question? I'm sure you don't believe I cared for the answer.

Why do you accuse me of hypocrisy?

All the best,


Faysal

why offer it as a reply then if it had no basis? The answer doesn't matter to me for precisely that reason. I don't care to build my interests against the vain discourse of rancid atheists. I only care to point out the flaw in your argument and I believe I have done precisely that when questioning you, on whether the lack of integration and keeping of one's religious customs, elicits a like response of you to those afore mentioned groups, and it is as well for those reasons that you are both a liar and a hypocrite!

all the best

 

[tetsujin]

why offer it as a reply then if it had no basis? The answer doesn't matter to me for precisely that reason. I don't care to build my interests against the vain discourse of rancid atheists. I only care to point out the flaw in your argument and I believe I have done precisely that when questioning you, on whether the lack of integration and keeping of one's religious customs, elicits a like response of you to those afore mentioned groups, and it is as well for those reasons that you are both a liar and a hypocrite!

all the best

Do you accuse me of a lie I haven't told? In what good conscience can you accuse me of using a flawed argument when I respond to your arguments in kind? You construct straw men and expect me to give you credibility? The response you received was to expose your lack of interest in an argument you began.

Yes, I would say the same to them; although you profess to care not in the least.

So, what have you exposed; that you believe some opinions cannot be expressed until such a time comes when they can expressed to the census of all concerned? It doesn’t matter if this community is the first, fifth, or infinite one to receive my “pearls”. It is in principle the same, so far as I have demonstrated my integrity in all other regards.

I ask you again, why do you accuse me of hypocrisy? What reasons do you have to believe I have not been honest our engagements?


All the best,


Faysal

 

[titus]

you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.

I have been to such communities in the US, and I can tell you that they not only keep their culture, but they also assimilate into American culture. They do not cut themselves off.

Go to any Chinatown and you will see that almost all of the residents, except for mainly the new arrivals, speak English as well as most Americans. They have created an identity in the American culture.

The Amish speak many different dialects, but they also speak English. They participate in government, they vote, and in times of war they volunteer with the government to help, although they refuse military service based on religious reasons. In regards to Tetsujin's comments the difference between the Amish and Muslims that he is referring to is that the Amish do not look down upon other Americans because of their belief. In fact if they did it would be considered a sin (pride). They certainly do not attempt to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on the rest of the population.

Visit Little Italy in New York sometime. Great food and proud Americans abound.

Again, referring back to what Tetsujin was saying, these groups that you mention differ from the Muslims he was referring to because they do not despise the nation that they now call home. You don't see these groups talking about how they want the government to change to accommodate their lifestyle and culture, nor do you see these groups talking about wanting to leave their home to go somewhere else.

Yet it is not uncommon to see Muslims moving to Western countries, then talking about how they are surrounded by filth, godlessness, depravity, etc. It is not uncommon for Muslims to move to democracies then talk about how bad the democratic system is. You don't see that in Chinatown or Little Italy or even in the Amish communities. These communities respect the system and live within in. They appreciate the freedoms they have, yet at the same time retain the parts of their culture that they want to keep.

The Chinese in Chinatown are not complaining about Democracy. The Amish in Pennsylvania are not saying that the US should be under religious rule. I am new to these forums but I have already seen Muslims speaking of their dislike of democracy, the filth and depravity of the West, and seen them try to convince people that everyone would be better under Sharia law.

These, I believe, are just some of the reason why there is a perception difference between the assimilation of Muslims in the UK and the assimilation of the groups that you mentioned.

Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.

 

[جوري]

I have been to such communities in the US, and I can tell you that they not only keep their culture, but they also assimilate into American culture. They do not cut themselves off.

.

you are full of crap, and though I have got to run to work in five, I have a minute to tell you, that if you in fact have done any research, you'd have learned, that that their alleged failure to 'assimilate' is what forced some of them to migrate to Canada and be tortured in American prisons with the death of some of them for their refusal to partake in such things as the draft when it was mandatory.

That is in fact if I accept the premise that Muslims fail to integrate, as govt. consensus studies shows Muslims to be one of the most successful immigrant groups in the U.S with income and education higher than that of the natives.

Your research like your opinion is as credible as a three dollar bill!

enjoy ignorance for it is indeed bliss... .. 'I just did some research on people whose existence wasn't even known to me two seconds ago and I am already a scholar in the field' -- funny guy.. there you have it folks.. the atheist and pals manifesto!

all the best!

 

[Argamemnon]

Originally I thought we could all co-exist. That we cannot co-exists comes from you’re side – not from my side.

I have said this a few times in various threads and get ignored. We can co-exist when:

We live in houses next door to each other.

We know bout our differences and can laugh about them.

Our children play together.

From time to time, if I am out, you give my wife a hand with something and I give you’re wife a hand with something.

We go to a local café for a meal together. I have pork and you have something else.

We could go on and on. In the West Mulsims avoid doing all these things, separate themselves from society so we cannot talk to each other and then claim

Nonsense, I have always had atheist friends and treat everybody with respect. There are Muslims who isolate themselves, but there are also many westerners who don't want anything to do with Muslims.

 

[جوري]

Do you accuse me of a lie I haven't told? In what good conscience can you accuse me of using a flawed argument when I respond to your arguments in kind? You construct straw men and expect me to give you credibility? The response you received was to expose your lack of interest in an argument you began.

Yes, I would say the same to them; although you profess to care not in the least.

So, what have you exposed; that you believe some opinions cannot be expressed until such a time comes when they can expressed to the census of all concerned? It doesn’t matter if this community is the first, fifth, or infinite one to receive my “pearls”. It is in principle the same, so far as I have demonstrated my integrity in all other regards.

I ask you again, why do you accuse me of hypocrisy? What reasons do you have to believe I have not been honest our engagements?


All the best,


Faysal

ah, the 900 word essay to over-compensate .. was it not you who had written:

Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal

should I not simply from the latter part of your testimony which is affirmative in nature draw the conclusion that the first part of your testimony is in fact true? do you not understand the implications of what you have written or simply hoping it would earn you a free pass? Again,it is for those reasons that you're indeed a liar and a hypocrite, I hope I have better demonstrated it now in a step wise fashion and with that you can stop hiding under florid words and menacing intent that bear no meaning for the rest can see through that charade!

all the best of course!

 

[Argamemnon]

They certainly do not attempt to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on the rest of the population.

I don't want to "impose" anything on this society. I'm not responsible for the actions of a few idiots. This generalization is a problem. There are idiots in every community, so what?

 

[aamirsaab]

You will have a long wait as I never said that.

I said “the Taliban said hiking is against Islam”. So you need to ask the Taliban.

I have some background. Hiking in the Swat valley was popular from the late 1960’s till the early 1980’s.

Eventually the locals said, that hiking was a waste of time. They pointed to their holy book and said time would be better spent praying to Allah. Hiking was forbidden because its against Islam!

-

I've had quite enough of your nonsense. You were clearly saying because Taliban say no hiking, Islam says no Hiking and you have said it again - as a result, I would like to see any justification from the Quran or Hadith; if you are unable to produce any, kindly retract your statement regarding religion and not being able to hike. It really is very simple: You made the statement (twice now), I am asking you to back it up - if you cannot, retract it. Do not tell me to ask the Taliban - you brought the issue up, the onus belongs to you.

Also, If you are unable to distinguish between the Taliban and Islam, despite many threads and posts (and the numerous sites on the web in general!) dedicated to explaining this to you, I have more than enough reason to ban you for trolling.

 

[titus]

I don't want to "impose" anything on this society. I'm not responsible for the actions of a few idiots. This generalization is a problem. There are idiots in every community, so what?

Ok, let me reply to you and then to Gossamer. Both of you seem to have read my post but neither one comprehended it fully.

I never said you wanted to impose anything on this society. I said there are those that do.

I also said, at the end, concerning those that do "Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.". In other words those that do are the minority. They do not represent most Muslims who have moved to the West, but unfortunately they are often the ones that people pay attention to.

For example, you can have 100 Muslims carrying signs calling for peace and then have one calling for beheading those that don't believe as they do. Which one will make the papers and which one will most non-Muslims pay attention to?

you are full of crap, and though I have got to run to work in five, I have a minute to tell you, that if you in fact have done any research, you'd have learned, that that their alleged failure to 'assimilate' is what forced some of them to migrate to Canada and be tortured in American prisons with the death of some of them for their refusal to partake in such things as the draft when it was mandatory.

I know about the draft and their treatment. I also know you are talking about incidents that happened almost a century ago.

There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. They were not beaten for "being different" or "refusing to assimilate". They were beaten because the idiots in the prison considered them unpatriotic, they saw them as refusing what they considered to be their civic duty, and for other prison regulations that they refused to follow because of their beliefs. This has long since changed and the US government does not draft Amish into military service.

That is in fact if I accept the premise that Muslims fail to integrate, as govt. consensus studies shows Muslims to be one of the most successful immigrant groups in the U.S with income and education higher than that of the natives.

I wasn't referring to US Muslims in my post. In fact I specifically mentioned Muslims integrating into the UK. Muslims in the US have integrated quite well.

enjoy ignorance for it is indeed bliss... .. 'I just did some research on people whose existence wasn't even known to me two seconds ago and I am already a scholar in the field' -- funny guy.. there you have it folks.. the atheist and pals manifesto!

I would suggest reading my posts more thoroughly next time and actually attempting to comprehend what I am saying. Stop thinking you know what I believe or what I am about before you even read the post.

I have been to Chinatown in San Francisco and I have been to Amish areas. I am a 40 year old man with a degree in History. This is not new information to me.

So please stop your platitudes (look up that word, it describes your post beautifully) until your reading comprehension improves. If you want to actually have dialogue let me know. If you simply want to insult people that disagree with you then I will learn to try and ignore your posts in the future.

 

[جوري]

Ok, let me reply to you and then to Gossamer. Both of you seem to have read my post but neither one comprehended it fully.

It wasn't that profound or even well researched-- how much time do you propose folks should spend of their day deciphering incongruous drivel?

I know about the draft and their treatment. I also know you are talking about incidents that happened almost a century ago.

I am glad google worked for you.. did the same page not distinguish you the difference between Hutterites, Amish and Mennonites just the same, or you enjoy lumping everything into one pigeonhole? Also what is the point whether it was during WWI or the gulf war? perhaps if there is a point you can tie it together nicely for us?

There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. They were not beaten for "being different" or "refusing to assimilate". They were beaten because the idiots in the prison considered them unpatriotic, they saw them as refusing what they considered to be their civic duty, and for other prison regulations that they refused to follow because of their beliefs. This has long since changed and the US government does not draft Amish into military service.

Completely irrelevant. I am yet to be introduced to your definition of 'Assimilated' And why you think colonies that live completely separate and restrained from the rest of the U.S are better assimilated than Muslims?

I wasn't referring to US Muslims in my post. In fact I specifically mentioned Muslims integrating into the UK. Muslims in the US have integrated quite well.

Ah, then perhaps you should have skipped your replies all together?
1- My post wasn't directed to a comment that you had made!
2- My post questions the integrity of someone singling out one group of people for their alleged failure to assimilate, while neglecting other groups who by their religious convictions live completely separate from others and manage to get on quite well un-harassed by the forward and progressive!
3- you Gauged in a topic you barely googled properly as even the first paragraph which distinguishes one sub group from another seemed to elude you..
4- but while we are on the topic of the U.K, it does seem by Govt. consensus that female Muslims do better than the female natives of both parties i.e those of them religious and those of them not.. No comment on that either... just a dandy catch all phrase?

I would suggest reading my posts more thoroughly next time and actually attempting to comprehend what I am saying. Stop thinking you know what I believe or what I am about before you even read the post.

See first paragraph-- I am not 'thinking what you believe' -- what you believe it what you write, and it is the usual run of the mill inane drivel!

I have been to Chinatown in San Francisco and I have been to Amish areas. I am a 40 year old man with a degree in History. This is not new information to me.

I am grateful for your list of accolades.. are you applying for a job here or wish to loan what you scribble some credence by swanking your resume?

So please stop your platitudes (look up that word, it describes your post beautifully) until your reading comprehension improves. If you want to actually have dialogue let me know. If you simply want to insult people that disagree with you then I will learn to try and ignore your posts in the future.

Yes, you do that.. while at it, try to reply back when directly addressed this round of shootings with the atheist BB gun really wasn't yours to struggle with.. I hazard think of what my day will be like if you put me on your ignore list?.. Oh sorrow.. :hmm:

 

[titus]

you Gauged in a topic you barely googled properly as even the first paragraph which distinguishes one sub group from another seemed to elude you..

Huh? What in my posts would give any indication that I was not aware of the difference between any of the subgroups I discussed?

I am grateful for your list of accolades.. are you applying for a job here or wish to loan what you scribble some credence by swanking your resume?

I was attempting to show that I am speaking about subjects that I am familiar with. Maybe you accuse others of Googling so quickly because you do so often, yet there are other people here that actually have an education and have seen the world and know about the examples that you brought up.

Maybe if you stopped assuming you knew everything about the posters before you replied to them you wouldn't look so foolish.

Yes, you do that.. while at it, try to reply back when directly addressed this round of shootings with the atheist BB gun really wasn't yours to struggle with.

Then maybe you should put your thoughts into private messages. The point of an open forum like this one is for public discourse in which any member may take part.

Also what is the point whether it was during WWI or the gulf war? perhaps if there is a point you can tie it together nicely for us?

Were we talking about present day or ancient history? If we are talking about current day situations then lets compare apples to apples and bring up examples that are occurring currently.

 

[جوري]

Huh? What in my posts would give any indication that I was not aware of the difference between any of the subgroups I discussed?

This:

There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. .

you can't scroll back a post up to see how what you have written is incongruous with history?

During World War I, the pacifist Hutterites suffered persecution in the United States. In the most severe case, four Hutterite men subjected to military draft who refused to comply were imprisoned and tortured. Ultimately, two died at Leavenworth Military Prison from mistreatment, after the Armistice had been signed ending the war.[4]
​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite
if you are going to google and then pretend you are a history buff, at least give us the common courtesy to acknowledge the proper group!
I doubt you have any clue at this stage on how to land this airplane so that the end has some commonality with the beginning!

I was attempting to show that I am speaking about subjects that I am familiar with. Maybe you accuse others of Googling so quickly because you do so often, yet there are other people here that actually have an education and have seen the world and know about the examples that you brought up.

Yes, indeed, and thank you for demonstrating how well educated you are

Maybe if you stopped assuming you knew everything about the posters before you replied to them you wouldn't look so foolish.

don't reply to posts not directed at you, and you won't end up publicly humiliated for more than one count indecency!

Then maybe you should put your thoughts into private messages. The point of an open forum like this one is for public discourse in which any member may take part.

Great, and you have received the appropriate replies for your drivel!

Were we talking about present day or ancient history? If we are talking about current day situations then lets compare apples to apples and bring up examples that are occurring currently.

Such groups are in existence today no? still living the same life style no?
Perhaps the problem is in how you understand and process information!

How is your ignore list coming along?

all the best

 

[titus]

if you are going to google and then pretend you are a history buff, at least give us the common courtesy to acknowledge the proper group!

Use your Google again. You will find that the instance you bring up was not the only one. There were Amish that were conscripted and put in brigs and prisons for refusing military service. There were also Mennonites and Hutterites and other religious groups that were imprisoned for the same offenses and treated badly.

es, indeed, and thank you for demonstrating how well educated you are

You are welcome. I am glad to be teaching you something.

Such groups are in existence today no? still living the same life style no?
Perhaps the problem is in how you understand and process information!

They are, but the question was concerning the reaction of people towards these groups and why they are treated differently than Muslims. Today these groups are not beaten for refusing military service, therefore your point is moot.

How is your ignore list coming along?

Notice I am not resorting to personal insults. I am debating the issue at hand. If you have something intelligent to reply with then please do so. If not then please post more insults in an attempt to hide your weakness at making a good point that can stand on its own merit.

 

[جوري]

Use your Google again. You will find that the instance you bring up was not the only one. There were Amish that were conscripted and put in brigs and prisons for refusing military service. There were also Mennonites and Hutterites and other religious groups that were imprisoned for the same offenses and treated badly.

Rather you are the one who should use it to validate your points? Logic dictates that I'd have to know who said groups are before googling them? taking a group I afore mentioned and googling it doesn't a scholar make you, it denotes you have a keyboard and internet access, let me be the first to congratulate you for that!

You are welcome. I am glad to be teaching you something.

Clearly you need to familiarize yourself with sarcasm amongst other things ;D

They are, but the question was concerning the reaction of people towards these groups and why they are treated differently than Muslims. Today these groups are not beaten for refusing military service, therefore your point is moot.

The question was never about refusal of military service. The question has always been on groups who keep to themselves, happily keep to their religion and life-style, and don't 'integrate' openly with the rest.
You have neither proved that they are integrated with the rest of society, nor have you proven that Muslims fail to integrate, which was the point your atheo-pal was actually aiming for. Perhaps your take home message is to not fight other people's battles!

Notice I am not resorting to personal insults. I am debating the issue at hand. If you have something intelligent to reply with then please do so. If not then please post more insults in an attempt to hide your weakness at making a good point that can stand on its own merit.

really? you have debated the issue at hand? refusing military service has to do with 'Islamophobia and atheo-fascism'?-- I think firstly you should read before you reply since your replies have no relevance to the points made, and occasionally look at the title to remind yourself, of what it is you are actually arguing for or against.. you are far removed from the topic. I am yet to see you make a good point. In fact if you'd made one, you wouldn't need to hammer it in constantly as if to congratulate yourself ..

all the best

 

[titus]

Rather you are the one who should use it to validate your points? Logic dictates that I'd have to know who said groups are before googling them? taking a group I afore mentioned and googling it doesn't a scholar make you, it denotes you have a keyboard and internet access, let me be the first to congratulate you for that!

So you want me to do your research for you? You are the one that stated that the Amish were not persecuted in WWI. You were wrong, yet I get more insults? Funny stuff.

Clearly you need to familiarize yourself with sarcasm amongst other things

Apparently you cannot recognize it yourself. I was quite aware of your sarcasm, since that is one of your main tool of discussion and you use it with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Mine, though, seems to have gone right over your head.

You cannot seem to make an intelligent argument, so you attack the person who disagrees with you instead of attacking their points. What exactly does that reveal about yourself and your ability to make an intelligent and reasoned response? Think about it. Maybe you will have learned something else from me :statisfie

I think firstly you should read before you reply since your replies have no relevance to the points made, and occasionally look at the title to remind yourself, of what it is you are actually arguing for or against.

You were the one that diverted the topic. You completely ignored the relevant parts of my original post and went off on a tangent. Since you seem to have forgotten them, let me repeat some of them for you:

The Chinese in Chinatown are not complaining about Democracy. The Amish in Pennsylvania are not saying that the US should be under religious rule. I am new to these forums but I have already seen Muslims speaking of their dislike of democracy, the filth and depravity of the West, and seen them try to convince people that everyone would be better under Sharia law.

These, I believe, are just some of the reason why there is a perception difference between the assimilation of Muslims in the UK and the assimilation of the groups that you mentioned.

Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.