Killing of First Born In Moses' Egypt:What's the problem???

[AntiKarateKid]

But nobody thinks they are wrong. It doesn't matter if they are following the god or even if the God exists, so long as they THINK they are following the god, this mentality leads to such horrible things.

What exactly do u mean nobody thinks they are wrong, I have just told you the opinion of virtually all Muslims that the suicide bombings are wrong and AGAINST the teachings. Now you are shifting the blame from religion to the individual person. People will always do violence whether they justify it by love, religion, greed, anger whatever. What it comes down to is if they are right. If a person is a true Muslim, they would not commit such acts. I can't say the same thing for other people. WHen you follow Allahs (SWT) law with all all your mind, body and soul you cannot go wrong because you are following Allah.


You seem to have a very fatalistic view of religion which is not at all befitting it. WHen properly followed it is the gateway to happiness and truth. And when improperly followed, like all things, trouble arises. Look at the Prophet ( pbuh) and could you still say that people would be bad if they followed him?

 

[aamirsaab]

and hello

As a Christian I agree with your statement, aamirsaab.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is the first time I hear a Muslim compare his relationship with God to a parent-child relationship.

Thanks . I guess it comes from my own experience. As a child (I was about 9 or 10 If I remember correctly) I did face the loss of a cherished aunty and it could easily have turned me into a rebellious brat (especially given that I blamed myself for it for a very long time). However, religion was there beside me (all the way) warning me from that path and fortunately I didn't take it. Events like that and even failing exams (and various other life events) have all helped me to build a relationship with God as a parental figure: the one figure that no matter what what you do or what happens, He is always there to turn too. There isn't really an equivalent but the closest thing would be a priest, imaam or rabbi etc; someone who's doors are always open for you.

I think this provides us with a glimpse into the mind of the suicide bomber, crusader, and witch burner. I find the notion that any horrible act is turned good by believing it to be God's will, to be a very dangerous mindset. Just sayin.

I do understand your points but I believe you require a little more knowledge on Islam: With the belief that God is just, we as muslims also understand that God will punish those (either in this life or the hereafter) - so these mass murderes, rapists, suicide bombers and the like will all be dealt with eventually - why God has allowed them to commit these attrocities is not known to me (maybe it is a test to mankind, maybe it is God allowing those individiduals to express their free will). What I do know is that I believe in God's justice and that He will sort those people out. As said before, it requires an element of trust in God (which for me was gained a long time ago over a period of years).

 

[Umar001]

Depends on one's views as to what it means to be a Muslim.

If it's your own child, it's a test. If it's your neighbor's child, it's a warning/sign. If it's your enemy's child, it's justice.

Erm, if that was the case wouldn't Muslims be sought to kill enemies children at times of war?

 

[tetsujin]

Erm, if that was the case wouldn't Muslims be sought to kill enemies children at times of war?

That's out of context, but it has also been demonstrated.

In war, there are two kinds of casualties. There are those who are actively participating in war, and then there's collateral damage.


Assuming you have an absolutely perfect weapon at your disposal. Let's say you develop a technology that stops the heart of any one person on the planet simply by entering their date of birth, gender, name, height, weight, or anything that was unique yet readily accessible etc... Do you think, for example, in the quest for eradicating terrorism, the military of the United states would waste it's time and money on the innocent people of Iraq or Afghanistan, or only those that fought for oppression and their terrorist ideologies?

Yes? Then we have another debate on our hands.

If you answered no, then you agree that there are at times casualties that are unwanted. Typically called collateral damage, they are the unintended victims due to human or technological error.

So my question to you is, "Why kill the children of your enemy?" If you had the chance, would you do it?


Arguably, god has the best weapons available, and god chose to kill the children. If you can answer that for me, without resorting to "We don't know the mind of god?", how are you going to rationalize that it was a just act.

If you're telling me that you don't know how god thinks, or why he does what he does, then don't say that it was justice. You're claiming more than you yourself can claim to know.

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[AntiKarateKid]

That's out of context, but it has also been demonstrated.

In war, there are two kinds of casualties. There are those who are actively participating in war, and then there's collateral damage.


Assuming you have an absolutely perfect weapon at your disposal. Let's say you develop a technology that stops the heart of any one person on the planet simply by entering their date of birth, gender, name, height, weight, or anything that was unique yet readily accessible etc... Do you think, for example, in the quest for eradicating terrorism, the military of the United states would waste it's time and money on the innocent people of Iraq or Afghanistan, or only those that fought for oppression and their terrorist ideologies?

Yes? Then we have another debate on our hands.

If you answered no, then you agree that there are at times casualties that are unwanted. Typically called collateral damage, they are the unintended victims due to human or technological error.

So my question to you is, "Why kill the children of your enemy?" If you had the chance, would you do it?


Arguably, god has the best weapons available, and god chose to kill the children. If you can answer that for me, without resorting to "We don't know the mind of god?", how are you going to rationalize that it was a just act.

If you're telling me that you don't know how god thinks, or why he does what he does, then don't say that it was justice. You're claiming more than you yourself can claim to know.

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

This is going nowhere. Again, WHO is the one who causes death? WHether those children died at 1 or 100 is up to Allah and if he took them at X age, it is at his discretion and he knows best. Somehow you keep ignoring this basic point, u dont control life, Allah does. Just keep sticking your fingers in your ears and spewing nonsensical pseudo noble dribble like " you justify death of children!!!". You just dont trust Allah and that is the base of your problem.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Faysal;

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.

Without God the children would not exist in the first place, there would be no universe, no life.

As AntiKarateKid said; If a child’s life on Earth exists for one hour, or the child lives to be a hundred years old, that has little meaning. Life after death with God is were we search for a true meaning.

Whilst we spend our time on Earth we should try and obey God, we should also care for each other. We have little control over our own lives or our families, sickness, accidents, death happens.

This is how we believe, and this in a way helps us to find peace. I think the problem arises when you mix up your own world view as an atheist were life stops with death; and there do not seem to be any meaningful answers to children dying.

In the spirit of searching for a loving God,

Eric

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ I would pretty much say the same thing.

Peace

 

[tetsujin]

So all of those children were predestined for death at age X, if it happened to be in the early years, it's okay because it was god's will?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

So all of those children were predestined for death at age X, if it happened to be in the early years, it's okay because it was god's will?

You talk about the death of a child as being predestined by God, logically the same God need not predestine that child to die. God could just as easily predestine everyone to live a healthy and jolly life up to a hundred.

This fits in with a world view I have heard from atheists that life is about getting the most out of it, enjoying it until they die.

I have noticed that you are critical of God, but have you really questioned your own perception about the death of a child today.

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for. You cannot blame God because God does not exist, you cannot find any comfort in life after death because it does not exist.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

Is there really no God?

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric

 

[tetsujin]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

You talk about the death of a child as being predestined by God, logically the same God need not predestine that child to die. God could just as easily predestine everyone to live a healthy and jolly life up to a hundred.

This fits in with a world view I have heard from atheists that life is about getting the most out of it, enjoying it until they die.

I have noticed that you are critical of God, but have you really questioned your own perception about the death of a child today.

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for. You cannot blame God because God does not exist, you cannot find any comfort in life after death because it does not exist.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

Is there really no God?

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric

I will speak for myself, and not any others.

If a child dies of a preventable disease, there is an attempt to find out why it was not prevented

If a child dies or a preventable war, there is an attempt to find out why there was no peace

If a child dies because of mistakes made by him/her, there is an attempt to educate others

In the words of Stephen Fry, (and I'm paraphrasing)

What possible reason do we have to be ashamed of our nakedness, or if we are naked that we should be ashamed of what we are and what we do? That we should apologize for our dreams, our impulses, our drives, and our desires...

The fault is in us and not in our stars and the glory is in us and not in our stars... We take credit for everything that is good about man and we take blame for everything that is dreadful about man... We do not grovel or apologize at the feet of a god nor are we so infantile as to project the idea that we once had a biological father and so we should have a divine one too.

If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice. The rest of us will take it upon ourselves to make our lives better.

I'm sorry if taking such responsibility is not comforting, but my purpose in life is not to feel better about things by consoling myself that I could do nothing more.

If you wish to know more, I would refer you to the works of Carl Sagan.

All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[Umar001]

As I mentioned before, maybe the understanding of death is what aids different people to take different stances.

What's one of the worst things a person can have happen to them?

Athiest - may say death.

Christian/Muslim - may say to lose faith.

Death by some who hold religions is not always a punishment, it can also be a reward, or a means to gain a reward. Whereas with individuals who do not take God or religion into hand, this is not a part of death.

Yes, in general, we try our best to preserve human lives, but in some cases death is better than life, and in other cases when we do preserve a life, it may be that, in a different perspective from yours, the life the individual goes on to live is worse than if the individual had died.

 

[aamirsaab]

...If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice. The rest of us will take it upon ourselves to make our lives better.

I'm sorry if taking such responsibility is not comforting, but my purpose in life is not to feel better about things by consoling myself that I could do nothing more.

This is the mistake non religious folk make. Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

 

[Muezzin]

'He works His work in mysterious ways. Some people like it. Some people don't.'

That's from the Constantine movie. With Keanu Reeves.

A lot of people I dislike it for some reason (probably because they have good taste), but I like it (probably because I have no taste).

 

[Pygoscelis]

You just dont trust Allah and that is the base of your problem.

I agree with this statement.

And what you say does make some sense, given your belief in a perfect and perfectly benevolent higher being.

But I still say it is a VERY dangerous mentality, if your belief is mistaken (which those outside your particular sect of your particular religion believe, so they can see it). You can see the same if you examine another religion you find false and the believers of said religion doing horrible things in the name of their god, and then justifying it by declaring it the will of their god.

You can even see this within your own religion (or an offshoot of it) in those people (ie suicide bombers) who you dismiss as not following your faith. There is no reason to believe they are not following their version of the religion (no matter how twisted you may find it) and this same mentality enables them also not to question their actions which they believe to be blessed.

It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

 

[Pygoscelis]

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for.

By grieving. Something the religious may never learn to do, as they instead pretend the person has gone to heaven and nothing has been lost. You hear things like "He's in a better place now". This is avoidance. There is something valuable in learning to grieve and accept loss. There is a value in accepting life as it is rather than engaging in soothing fantasy.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

By actually seeing it as a senseless or needless death of a child today, doing whatever can be done to prevent the same happening again, and accepting that life isn't always fair. We're not all beautiful. We're not all brilliant. We're not all born rich. We're not all going to live a long painless life.

Is there really no God?

Not outside the minds of his believers.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I agree with this statement.

And what you say does make some sense, given your belief in a perfect and perfectly benevolent higher being.

But I still say it is a VERY dangerous mentality, if your belief is mistaken (which those outside your particular sect of your particular religion believe, so they can see it). You can see the same if you examine another religion you find false and the believers of said religion doing horrible things in the name of their god, and then justifying it by declaring it the will of their god.

You can even see this within your own religion (or an offshoot of it) in those people (ie suicide bombers) who you dismiss as not following your faith. There is no reason to believe they are not following their version of the religion (no matter how twisted you may find it) and this same mentality enables them also not to question their actions which they believe to be blessed.

It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

Nothing wrong with that when it is the creator dishing out the rules. There is a clear line between Islam and the other religions of the world but seeing your responses on the Thor thread, you yourself have yet to find them ( for some incomprehensible reason). Finally, your trust is lacking and that is what makes you a disbeliever so further discussion between us would be pointless as we are arguing from two extreme. But the moral of this story is that you are under the illusion that death is the end and that is the problem.

 

[aamirsaab]

...It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

The difference with religion though, is that you first earn the leader's trust (i.e He proves to YOU). With authoritarianism, you place your trust blindly - question the leader and you're brown bread.

 

[tetsujin]

This is the mistake non religious folk make. Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

Again you fall into the same trap. I am finally seeing these patterns. In Islam we all have something called fitrah which is the inherent disposition towards virtue in humanity. Allah created us all with it. Religion is there to purify it and give it the true direction. And how is that? By leading them to the true God, their creator and the ultimate good. The answer to your misguided question is not a simple one but in the end it will probably ( and correct me if I am wrong brothers and sisters) a believer will seek Allah. That in itself is the most profound, beautiful and guiding action this through which all other truly good actions stem from. This is assuming that the believer is honestly seeking Allah and not content with false religions or atheistic vain talk ( cough foxhole cough).

 

[aamirsaab]

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

I don't understand how this relates to what I said nor do I understand the point you are making since I didn't claim anything along the lines of only religious people can behave ethically, which I do believe you thought I did hence your quote.

I'll reiterate and highlight the important bit cus I think you misread my post:
...Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

To answer your quote: I cannot name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Note: The main purpose of religion is to help mankind (and society as a whole) LIVE, which is 100% true as far as Islam goes, evidence is shown in the fact that anything that is harmful to the human in Islam is regarded as haram [heh haram and harm...they sound the same don't they] aka unlawful. Examples range from narrow and broader connotations of this, including: abortion, euthanasia, adultery/zina, theft etc etc.