Killing of First Born In Moses' Egypt:What's the problem???

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

There wasnt such as thing as atheism even with the first man on earth! So what makes u think this isn't something learned by someone who becomes atheist?

Ok since we r talking about any religious person, they all do acts of good. But I have yet to see any other religion preaching to break that barriers of race! Do you? From a scriptural point of view, do u know of any besides Islam? Do you know of any other religion that gave women the right to property, inheritance, money, right to give her voice on issues and seek knowledge other than Islam?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Nothing wrong with that when it is the creator dishing out the rules.

If said creator is perfectly good and benevolent, then that would be so, yes. As you correctly pointed out above, this is the fundamental conflict in our outlooks.

There is a clear line between Islam and the other religions of the world but seeing your responses on the Thor thread, you yourself have yet to find them ( for some incomprehensible reason).

As does every other person who is not muslim. That you believe you have "found" them is what makes you a muslim.

Finally, your trust is lacking and that is what makes you a disbeliever

My disbelief is what makes me a disbeliever. Trust is not an issue, as you can't trust or distrust something that doesn't exist. I can contemplate a person however who may actually believe yet distrust. Is there an offshoot of islam like that?

 

[Pygoscelis]

There wasnt such as thing as atheism even with the first man on earth! So what makes u think this isn't something learned by someone who becomes atheist?

I'm not clear on what you are trying to say here.

But atheism has existed as long as belief in gods has existed, and in fact existed long before then but simply wasn't recognized. Atheism is a lack of belief in Gods. Before there was belief in Gods everybody was an atheist but didn't know it.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Not really. People of the past, believed in a being of some sort, regardless of how many and in what sense. And atheism in itself is still a belief.

 

[Pygoscelis]

And atheism in itself is still a belief.

as much as bald is a hair colour.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Your analogy is flawed. Color would be a variation of a trait of hair. Assuming hair signifies religion and baldness lack of it which equates with disbelief, are u saying you dont believe in different religions ( hair colors)? Baldness is the lack of hair which is also a style. Atheism is also a belief like religion. To deny that atheism is also a faith ( a faith that no God exists) is folly.

 

[tetsujin]

Your analogy is flawed. Color would be a variation of a trait of hair. Assuming hair signifies religion and baldness lack of it which equates with disbelief, are u saying you dont believe in different religions ( hair colors)? Baldness is the lack of hair which is also a style. Atheism is also a belief like religion. To deny that atheism is also a faith ( a faith that no God exists) is folly.

I must refer you to the nearest Encyclopedia Britannica. Atheism is not a belief system. It is specifically the rejection of religion and it's theological dogma. Whether that religion includes a faith in god such as YHWH, Jesus or Allah, or whether it is transcendent such as Hinduism or Buddhism, it does not matter. Characterization of atheism as a disbelief in the existence of god or gods is inadequate.

It is also not faith based, as per any definition of faith that I have come across. Typically referring to any belief not based on proof, logic, or evidence. One cannot say that atheism is a faith because as an atheist you would believe in the non-existence of gods even if you had no proof for their non-existence.

You cannot disprove the existence of god any more than you can prove the existence of god, however that is not what atheism rests upon. If you wish to boil it down, it is the antithesis of religious dogmatism and any supernatural beliefs they include.

I apologize to certain sects of the eastern religions as I know some of them do not have dogmatic beliefs per se, but it served as in illustration.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[tetsujin]

To answer your quote: I cannot name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Note: The main purpose of religion is to help mankind (and society as a whole) LIVE, which is 100% true as far as Islam goes, evidence is shown in the fact that anything that is harmful to the human in Islam is regarded as haram [heh haram and harm...they sound the same don't they] aka unlawful. Examples range from narrow and broader connotations of this, including: abortion, euthanasia, adultery/zina, theft etc etc.

Sorry, I was pressed for time so I didn't clarify why I quoted that but.....

If you do not have to be religious to act morally or ethically, or to help humanity, or live a peaceful life, why do you need religion?

To be frank, I can understand theft, but how are abortions more harmful than miscarriages (which are more frequent), what's the problem with euthanasia (as according to religious people you are only easing their pain and the person will probably go to heaven/hell as god sees fit), and why is adultery intrinsically harmful (unless by adultery you also meant promiscuity)?

All the best wishes,


Faysal

 

[Pygoscelis]

Bald is not a hair colour because bald people have no hair. Atheism is not a type of faith or religion, because atheists have no faith or religion. The analogy is apt. Atheism is the null set, it is when one lacks god belief rather than having a particular kind of god belief. Atheism is the default set. It is what you are before you put your mind to the question and it is what you remain if you are not convinced by the religion salesmen.

I do often encounter what seems to be a strong need in theists to believe that atheists have "faith", and have a "religion" or system of beliefs or leaders. Some will further insist particular atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens speak for atheists at large - when really they only speak for themselves.

THERE IS NO ATHEIST CREED OR PROPHET OR HOLY BOOK. How many times do people have to point that out to theists before they get it through their heads? If a given atheist has an ideology it is due to that ideology, not due to atheism, just as its not due to their lack of belief in leprechauns. Is the lack of belief in leprechauns a worldview? Are there lack-of-belief-in leprechaun holy books or prophets or rituals? No. Same with atheism.

By the way, the reason why "atheist groups" so often flounder is because atheism defines what one is not rather than what one is, and so having little in common between atheists they don't organize well.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Bald is not a hair colour because bald people have no hair. Atheism is not a type of faith or religion, because atheists have no faith or religion. The analogy is apt. Atheism is the null set, it is when one lacks god belief rather than having a particular kind of god belief. Atheism is the default set. It is what you are before you put your mind to the question and it is what you remain if you are not convinced by the religion salesmen.

I do often encounter what seems to be a strong need in theists to believe that atheists have "faith", and have a "religion" or system of beliefs or leaders. Some will further insist particular atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens speak for atheists at large - when really they only speak for themselves.

THERE IS NO ATHEIST CREED OR PROPHET OR HOLY BOOK. How many times do people have to point that out to theists before they get it through their heads? If a given atheist has an ideology it is due to that ideology, not due to atheism, just as its not due to their lack of belief in leprechauns. Is the lack of belief in leprechauns a world view? Are there lack-of-belief-in leprechaun holy books or prophets or rituals? No. Same with atheism.

By the way, the reason why "atheist groups" so often flounder is because atheism defines what one is not rather than what one is, and so having little in common between atheists they don't organize well.

Think about it this way. I have very short hair. I am lacking alot of hair. My uncle is bald in places but he instead keeps whats left and turns it into a different style. A bald man cuts off all of his hair to make it seem like he has none. The issue is not whether bald is a hair COLOR. Bald is a hair style. The color bit comes in to show what TYPE of hair ( faith if anyone needs a refreshment on metaphors). Therefore, atheism is a a lack of faith, in religion but faith in nothing. You belive there is no God, that is a faith. We both have differing views on the metaphysical.

 

[aamirsaab]

Sorry, I was pressed for time so I didn't clarify why I quoted that but.....

If you do not have to be religious to act morally or ethically, or to help humanity, or live a peaceful life, why do you need religion?

Because religion teaches us to be moralistic and ethic (if we take the religious history with the first humans adam and eve whom were taught those codes from God - these moral codes and practices didn't originate from the minds of any mere mortal I can assure you!).

For me certainly it has shaped my own moral and ethic code - were it not for those teachings I'd quite possibly be the polar opposite of who I am today: homosexual, habitual smoker, leader of a racist gang with a girlfriend smoking whatever the hell kids smoke these days. But anyone who knows me well knows that I'm the exact opposite of that and it is because of religion.

Throughout all the teachings of Islam, human preservation keeps coming up (I'll explain in detail as to how this is in another thread). This coupled with my knowledge on psychology has only bolstered my belief that religion as a whole is actually better for mankind and that Islam is the true religion.

To be frank, I can understand theft, but how are abortions more harmful than miscarriages (which are more frequent), what's the problem with euthanasia (as according to religious people you are only easing their pain and the person will probably go to heaven/hell as god sees fit), and why is adultery intrinsically harmful (unless by adultery you also meant promiscuity)?

All the best wishes,


Faysal

I'll explain those points and the punishments in this thread as I'm writing a mini essay on the topic.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

You know, this story sounds so much like the one about King Sargon. The story of his life starts with him being found as a baby by a gardener as he came floating in a basket down the river — a story older but similar to the one the Old Testament tells about Moses. King of ancient Mesopotamia, reigning probably from 2334 BCE to 2279. His byname was Sargon of Akkad, after the kingdom he formed.

When I read them both, I honestly don't know what to make of it. I know that Ezra rewrote the Torah and he also had access to the Library at Babylon, which would have held the first record. Since he was a son of Abraham, these were his family records, so it's not like he was stealing them, but it still mystifies me, why he wrote it the way he did. Or perhaps the event was duplicated by the parents of Moses? Maybe, since this story was well known at the time.

This is the one from the first story, King Sargon of Akkadia:

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice.

Pray as if everything depends on God, work as if everything depends on your own efforts. If you pray in this way then you might understand the power of prayer, you cannot sit back and leave everything to God.

It is no good praying for the poor and leaving everything to God, that makes us hypocrites. As well as giving money and goods, many people in the churches are involved in projects raising money for good causes too. People give their time in the community voluntarily to help others, these things work better when we pray for other people and their needs.

I am involved in an initiative called Street Pastors, we go out voluntarily in pairs until late on a Friday night; trying to bring about a little peace in the community. We purposefully go to places were there are a good chance of finding gangs of youths drinking, doing drugs, being vandals and being a general nuisance. I am nearly sixty, my partner is a lady in her sixties who has trouble walking and she gets out of breath. She is a lady who just should not be doing something like this late on a Friday night.

We spend time in prayer before we go out, we have people back at the church praying for us while we are out. This gives us the comfort and courage to do a task that can seem daunting and frightening. I would not be able to do these things without prayer and knowing God is there.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and merciful God.

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

So you pray as it if depends on God but work as if it depends on you. That really isn't so different in what gets done than with the non-believer who only works as if it depends on them.

You do say that you would not have the courage to do these things without God, which in my mind turns God into Dumbo's magic feather. You lean on the feather (God) thinking it gives you power when indeed you have that power in yourself all along. (For anybody unfamiliar with the Dumbo story, its about an elephant who can fly seemingly because he has a magic feather, but loses the feather and discovers he could fly all along without it)

That being said, I'm glad you have such feather if it enables you to do good for the community. I just hope the feather doesn't happen to come bundled with anything less community friendly.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You know, this story sounds so much like the one about King Sargon. The story of his life starts with him being found as a baby by a gardener as he came floating in a basket down the river — a story older but similar to the one the Old Testament tells about Moses. King of ancient Mesopotamia, reigning probably from 2334 BCE to 2279. His byname was Sargon of Akkad, after the kingdom he formed.

When I read them both, I honestly don't know what to make of it. I know that Ezra rewrote the Torah and he also had access to the Library at Babylon, which would have held the first record. Since he was a son of Abraham, these were his family records, so it's not like he was stealing them, but it still mystifies me, why he wrote it the way he did. Or perhaps the event was duplicated by the parents of Moses? Maybe, since this story was well known at the time.

This is the one from the first story, King Sargon of Akkadia:

The Ninth Scribe

I am convinced that most of the biblical stories, especially those in the Old Testament or Torah are recycled from earlier stories from earlier cultures, be they the Epic of Gilgamesh, Osiris, Mithras, Amen-Ra, etc. There are too many similarities for it to be otherwise. I aknowledge that this doesn't completely invalidate them, as the original stories may have had some truth to them, but it does present a real challenge for biblical literalists.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

I am convinced that most of the biblical stories, especially those in the Old Testament or Torah are recycled from earlier stories from earlier cultures, be they the Epic of Gilgamesh, Osiris, Mithras, Amen-Ra, etc. There are too many similarities for it to be otherwise. I aknowledge that this doesn't completely invalidate them, as the original stories may have had some truth to them, but it does present a real challenge for biblical literalists.

Well I know Ezra was the one who compiled them all, and I don't buy the argument that he "stole" them from the Babylonian libraries. I think Madam Blavatsky and others were harsh in that conclusion. I believe Ezra knew Abraham came from Babylon and, since they were descendants, considered the records to be their inheritence. I do know they botched some of the records - they made a mess out of calandar conversions. But this instance, with Sargon's records... he may have re-arranged the story soley for a learning curve. In other words, some of these stories have no historical value at all, apart from the moral lessons they present. Also, Ezra wasn't exactly a stuffy historian. He was a scribe, with a keen eye for the rule of law and an undying desire to teach it. He was also a beautiful speaker. He literally wowed the crowds at the king's palace in Babylon and in front of the Water Gate in Jerusalem. Everyone loved the way he told the stories, and maybe that's what it was all about? A means to teach law by sharing stories?

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Pygoscelis]

apart from the moral lessons they present.

Many of us would dispute there being any morality in those stories

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

You lean on the feather (God) thinking it gives you power when indeed you have that power in yourself all along.

Faith and trust in God helps some people find comfort, strength and a peace that surpasses all understanding. As faith and trust in God happens there seems the need to do something, to give something back to the community

That being said, I'm glad you have such feather if it enables you to do good for the community.

Being a parent and grandparent I often worry about what my own kids get up to late at night. It is with these thoughts in mind that I try and make sense of the role of Street Pastor. We hope that people will talk to us, and I feel that they do.
We go out trying to encourage the youngsters to care for each other, and to take care of the community. I feel troubled by the numbers of young 13, 14, year old girls wondering around the streets gone midnight; often the worse for drink or drugs. Our role seems very limited in that we can only be a presence walking around the streets, parks, and alleys. We have been told by a number of people and the police; that they appreciate a kind of calming influence in the community when we are around.

I just hope the feather doesn't happen to come bundled with anything less community friendly.

You mean do we go out preaching to all the atheists out there We go around with jackets that have Street Pastors written in large reflective letters, which means we have to put up with all the insults, and micky taking; it is often done with good humour. We do introduce ourselves as belonging to the local churches and I leave it at that. Sometimes people ask us about God, and we try and answer them.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our communities.

Eric

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Many of us would dispute there being any morality in those stories

Yes, but you don't know Ezra (Uzayr) as well as I do. I've studied his work for almost nine years now, and I've adapted to the way he viewed his religious obligations. For instance, you will not find one record written by him that attempts to vindicate his people from divine judgment. In fact, one message is repeated over and over again:

Defy the laws of God, and you will be punished.

He defies all modern adaptations of religion that suggest babtism or bloodline can save one from religious prosecution. He believed the fall of Judah was an act of divine judgement and their punishment was Babylon. Likewise, Moses was punished too. In the story, a slave became a great leader but when he displeased God, he was not allowed into the promised land. Different story, same principle.

Ezra has a habit of repeating his message over and over again, regardless of how it's written or what story its been inserted into. In fact, this is one reason I know for certain he was not the author of the Books of Esdras, they are fakes, because the work contradicts the principles he held dear to his very soul. That, and his style of writing does not match up with the author's style in those books (Esdras, Tobit and Enoch).

Wow, I just answered my own question, why he would re-write the story of Sargon the way he did. He did it to prove to the sons of Abraham that any one, no matter how favored they are by God, can invoke his wrath should they disobey Holy Law.

Tee hee. Thanks guys

The Ninth Scribe