Miracles and Facts about the Quran

[Ayesha Rana]

Re: Miracles Facts about Quran

argument about the fingerprint - fingertips- read through the verse again and may be it might dawn on you!

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.


perfect order of a fingertip- hmm, i wonder what that means?

Hey y'know the fingerprint thing well i read somewhere in the Quran that people will prove things using the tips of the fingers ...sorry big hurry i'll get the ref insha'Allah

 

[HeiGou]

I'm not sure why you think a peg looks like "cow pat",

Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.

though dictionary.com has quite a different definition:

1. A small cylindrical or tapered pin, as of wood, used to fasten things or plug a hole.
2. A similar pin forming a projection that may be used as a support or boundary marker.

So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.

More about mountain stability, the following is taken from: http://www.quranicstudies.com/article49.html

I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.

We asked Professor Sievada whether the mountains have a function in establishing the crust of the earth. He said that this has not yet been discovered and established by scientists. In view of the reply we researched and inquired about this and we found out that many geologists gave the same reply, except for a few.

So they do not think it is holding the continental plates down and preventing all life from being thrown off by bucking rocks.

Dr. Press writes on the functions of the mountains and states that they play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This is exactly how the Qur'an described mountains 14 centuries ago.

Really? Where does he say this?

So you think mountains are not fixed? Well last time I checked, they looked pretty still to me.

And yet tectonic drift means they are moving. As the previous poster's cut and paste said in a different part of his cut and paste.

I would rather take the view of acclaimed scientists:

Me too. Do you know a good geology site?

Does not the tip of a finger hold a person's fingerprint?

It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.

While the Qur'an is not a science textbook, I believe it does have amazing connections with this field which some people only bend over backwards in attempts to deny.

I am sorry you think that is what I am doing

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This thread seems to be going round in circles, and it appears that people are posting without having read previous pages.

The 'scientific miracles' argument is still as unconvincing as it's ever been. Personally, I find the 'fingerprints' example to be the most conspicuous of these assorted insults to people's intelligence.

I'd like to invite a response to a question I've asked repeatedly in this regard, without having received an answer. If the scientific miracles argument is true, and it proves that the information in the Qur'an is divinely ordained, then why is the same not said of Democritus and Aristarchus of Samos, who made scientific claims that were only proven to be true centuries after their deaths?

It would be great to hear some Muslim opinions on this.

Peace

 

[root]

I guess star-trek should be added to the list of revelations of science by divine inspiration since it correctly detailed the following years before science got to it:

Mobile phones

Ion propolsion drives

And the latest divine inspiration is the "cloaking device"

Researchers in the US and Britain have unveiled their blueprints for building a cloaking device. So far, cloaking has been confined to science fiction; in Star Trek it is used to render spacecraft invisible. Professor Sir John Pendry says a simple demonstration model that could work for radar might be possible within 18 months' time.

Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5016068.stm

 

[Sohrab]

Greetings,

This thread seems to be going round in circles, and it appears that people are posting without having read previous pages.

The 'scientific miracles' argument is still as unconvincing as it's ever been. Personally, I find the 'fingerprints' example to be the most conspicuous of these assorted insults to people's intelligence.

I'd like to invite a response to a question I've asked repeatedly in this regard, without having received an answer. If the scientific miracles argument is true, and it proves that the information in the Qur'an is divinely ordained, then why is the same not said of Democritus and Aristarchus of Samos, who made scientific claims that were only proven to be true centuries after their deaths?

It would be great to hear some Muslim opinions on this.

Peace

Yep, people do slide off the track sometimes when it comes to scientific facts in the Quran, and in their desperation to prove it to the non muslims they exaggerate and even cheat at times. Unfortunately this only tarnishes the image of islam. We do believe that Quran is scientifically accurate, but it doesn't mean we use the unfair means to convince someone about it. And quran is not a book of science after all, it's supposed to be a book of Guidance (hidaya).

Prayers

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.

And what exactly do you mean by "cow pats"? Perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by it, because I still disagree.

So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.

Obviously, a mountain is not going to be the same size as a tent peg, but the similarity in their function remains.

I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.

Fair enough, but these religious sites are quoting renowned scientists, so there must be some truth in their words, no?

So they do not think it is holding the continental plates down and preventing all life from being thrown off by bucking rocks.

"except a few".

Really? Where does he say this?

I think it's in the book called 'The Earth'.

And yet tectonic drift means they are moving. As the previous poster's cut and paste said in a different part of his cut and paste.

I think a question of relativity arises here, as has been brought up in this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/3222-earths-movement-around-sun.html

Me too. Do you know a good geology site?

Not really, but good scientists can often be quoted in all kinds of media, so the type of site might not always be important; rather the context and quality of its information.

It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.

But at the very least, it seems quite coincidental that the tip of the finger also holds a very unique and precise component of a human, and that such a precise component is associated with resurrection.

Hello czgibson/root,

Scientists who made scientific claims in the past are not comparable to the Qur'an for a number of reasons, the first that springs to mind being that the Qur'an has always been considered a book of fact; knowledge from One who Knows everything. This is in contrast to people who make "claims" and perhaps even guess at what they think has a possiblity of being true. Such people may have predicted one thing right, yet something else may have been wrong. The Qur'an, on the other hand, has always stated consistent information, none of which has been proven wrong.

Secondly, the Qur'an was revealed to an illiterate man. So while these scientists based their predictions on experiments and knowledge of the subject, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was no expert in geology, let alone being able to read or write. This makes the Qur'an's accounts of nature as well as its literary structure all the more miraculous, especially considering the fact that it was revealed at a time when even experts might not have been able to know of such information (such as embryology).

Peace.

 

[cool_jannah]

Hello people.

Alhamdulillah so we all agree that the Qur'an is the last revelation(warning) for the dwellers of this planet. The kuffar have to understand before raising there futile objections on the scientific facts that we are not trying to proove that Qur'an is the true revelation just because it revelas some astonishing information about the established scientific facts that we have learnt today. No one is forcing you to believe in it. You (the kuffar) have chosen your way.

Moving on...

4)

CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE

The picture represents the Big Bang, which revealed once again that Allah created the universe from nothingness. The Big Bang is a theory that has been proven with scientific evidence. Although some scientists tried to advance arguments against the Big Bang, scientific evidence has caused the Big Bang theory to be completely accepted by the scientific community.




Scientists today are able to observe the formation of stars from a hot gas cloud. Formation from a warm mass of gas also applies to the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe as described in the Qur'an confirms this scientific discovery in the following verse:

He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)


​

The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "dukhanun," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. 5
The fact that such information about the creation of the universe is given in the Qur'an is nothing short of a miracle of the Qur'an.


5)

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE

Edwin Hubble with his giant telescope




In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)


​

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today. 1

Georges Lemaitre

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."
At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.

From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.

This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. During these observations, Hubble established that the stars emit a light that turns redder according to their distance. That is because according to the known laws of physics, light heading towards a point of observation turns violet, and light moving away from that point assumes a more reddish hue. During his observations, Hubble noted a tendency towards the colour red in the light emitted by stars. In short, the stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.
In order to gain a clearer understanding of this, let us imagine the universe to be the surface of a balloon being inflated. In the same way that the more the balloon is inflated, the further away the points on its surface move from one another, celestial bodies also move away from one another as the universe expands. This was theoretically discovered by Albert Einstein, regarded as one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. However, in order to avoid violating the "static universe model" that was generally accepted at that time, Einstein laid that discovery aside. He would later describe this as the greatest blunder of his life. 2
This fact was explained in the Qur'an in a time when telescopes and similar technological advancements were not even close to being invented. This is because the Qur'an is the Word of Allah: the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe.

p.s. - SubhanAllah. Imagine an illeterate man(pbuh) 1400 years ago. How many years ago? 1400 years ago saying something like "the universe is expanding". come on guys gimme a break. if you haven't opened your mind yet. it is time.
​

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Muhammad,

Thanks for giving an answer to my question. It's nice to have received one at last!

Hello czgibson/root,

We're not the same person, I promise!

Scientists who made scientific claims in the past are not comparable to the Qur'an for a number of reasons, the first that springs to mind being that the Qur'an has always been considered a book of fact; knowledge from One who Knows everything.

Another reason that springs to mind is that scientists such as Aristarchus made clear pronouncements, such as "The Earth revolves around the Sun", whereas the Qur'an's supposed scientific information is clouded in ambiguous phrases that often have to be stretched to accommodate the discoveries of modern science. So, basically, unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others are regarded as divine, whereas clear statements constituting original thought by ancient Greeks are not?

This is in contrast to people who make "claims" and perhaps even guess at what they think has a possiblity of being true. Such people may have predicted one thing right, yet something else may have been wrong. The Qur'an, on the other hand, has always stated consistent information, none of which has been proven wrong.

You're right - these scientists claimed many things, some of which turned out to be true and some of which didn't. That is part of scientific discovery. In the case of the Qur'an, it will only provide consistently correct information if that is the result you want to see. To a non-believer these claims simply don't stand up. See HeiGou's posts above showing the contradictions he sees between the Qur'an and current scientific thinking. In other words, the Qur'an's accuracy seems to be hit and miss in the same way that the ideas of the ancient scientists were.

Your second point gets into other areas, such as the life of the Prophet (pbuh), which we could perhaps discuss later on. I'd like for now to ask if you can see, given what I've said here so far, how an atheist could find it odd that Democritus and Aristarchus are not regarded as being divinely inspired, since they appear to qualify under similar criteria to those by which the Qur'an is afforded such a judgment.

Greeting cool jannah,

The kuffar have to understand before raising there futile objections on the scientific facts that we are not trying to proove that Qur'an is the true revelation just because it revelas some astonishing information about the established scientific facts that we have learnt today.

Um, that's exactly what you're trying to do. See here:

Imagine an illeterate man(pbuh) 1400 years ago. How many years ago? 1400 years ago saying something like "the universe is expanding". come on guys gimme a break. if you haven't opened your mind yet. it is time.

Peace

 

[Sohrab]

When sometimes i feel overwhelmed with the things around me, when I feel that I have done my best, but things don't seem in my favor, when i look around and find nothing to count on or to call for help, when it seems as if it might be over for me, I'm glad that Allah is always there to listen to me.

We all go thru such times, and we all know that in those times deep inside we do call someone. But some people would just never admit it.

Prayers


"He it is Who maketh you to go on the land and the sea till, when ye are in the ships and they sail with them with a fair breeze and they are glad therein, a storm- wind reacheth them and the wave cometh unto them from every side and they deem that they are overwhelmed therein; (then) they cry unto Allah, making their faith pure for Him only: If Thou deliver us from this, we truly will be of the thankful.

Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do.

(Quran: Sura Younus: 22, 23)

 

[HeiGou]

Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.

And what exactly do you mean by "cow pats"? Perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by it, because I still disagree.

I mean like an up-turned bowl, not like a pencil.

So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.

Obviously, a mountain is not going to be the same size as a tent peg, but the similarity in their function remains.

I think that the question of their function remains open and even to talk of their function presupposes a Creator.

I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.

Fair enough, but these religious sites are quoting renowned scientists, so there must be some truth in their words, no?

I would have to be sure that they are quoting fairly - there have been cases of Western scientists objecting to what they see as misrepresentation of their views.

[quopte]It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.

But at the very least, it seems quite coincidental that the tip of the finger also holds a very unique and precise component of a human, and that such a precise component is associated with resurrection. [/quote]

It doesn't seem co-incidental to me. The finger is simply an extremity we use a lot - other parts of the body are also unique.

 

[Muhammad]

We're not the same person, I promise!

Sorry, I assumed yours and root's replies were making the same point, so I addressed both of you .

Another reason that springs to mind is that scientists such as Aristarchus made clear pronouncements, such as "The Earth revolves around the Sun", whereas the Qur'an's supposed scientific information is clouded in ambiguous phrases that often have to be stretched to accommodate the discoveries of modern science.

I don't agree with this. While there are some Qur'anic verses that are over-stretched by individuals, there are many that are quite clear, such as the following (which were mentioned earlier) regarding the function/benefit of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

And the mountains, He made them firm (Qur'an, 79:32)

And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright (Qur'an, 16:15)

He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you... (Qur'an, 31:10)

So, basically, unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others are regarded as divine, whereas clear statements constituting original thought by ancient Greeks are not?

But is this actually the case? You have made a number of assumptions here. I have already mentioned that many verses are very much clear and further to this, they do not require "new ways" of interpretation. Modern advancements in science can deepen our understanding of certain scientific aspects of the Qur'an and hence strengthen our faith, yet this does not mean that they have been interpreted in "new ways".

I find it quite strange that you assert a third false implication that the Qur'an was copied from elsewhere, and this has no basis whatsoever.

In the case of the Qur'an, it will only provide consistently correct information if that is the result you want to see. To a non-believer these claims simply don't stand up. See HeiGou's posts above showing the contradictions he sees between the Qur'an and current scientific thinking. In other words, the Qur'an's accuracy seems to be hit and miss in the same way that the ideas of the ancient scientists were.

Well I don't find HeiGou's posts convincing at all. Nowhere has he proved that the Qur'an is in contradiction to scientific thinking. If anything, we have only seen that many geologists don't even know about the function of mountains while there are some that put forward evidence for it; yet this is far from being a contradiction.

Your second point gets into other areas, such as the life of the Prophet (pbuh), which we could perhaps discuss later on.

I thought it was relevant to bring in the context and history of the Qur'an, especially since you now brought in an implication that the Qur'an was partly or wholly copied from elsewhere. Greek scientists they mave been, and years of education and experimentation might have been what lead them to make their predictions; yet on the other hand we have a man with no such education or knowledge whose statements are remarkably accurate. Is it such a wonder that he is regarded as having received revelation, while such others as have produced no such miraculous work are not?

Peace.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I mean like an up-turned bowl, not like a pencil.

That's observable. Are mountain roots observable? Can someone find out about the long extension of mountains beneath the surface?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

While there are some Qur'anic verses that are over-stretched by individuals, there are many that are quite clear, such as the following (which were mentioned earlier) regarding the function/benefit of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

And the mountains, He made them firm (Qur'an, 79:32)

And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright (Qur'an, 16:15)

He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you... (Qur'an, 31:10)

OK, so the mountains are set firm. That's clear, but hardly earth shattering. What scientific information is miraculously contained here?

But is this actually the case? You have made a number of assumptions here. I have already mentioned that many verses are very much clear and further to this, they do not require "new ways" of interpretation. Modern advancements in science can deepen our understanding of certain scientific aspects of the Qur'an and hence strengthen our faith, yet this does not mean that they have been interpreted in "new ways".

Do you really believe that Muslims have interpreted these verses in terms of plate tectonics for as long as the Qur'an has existed?

I find it quite strange that you assert a third false implication that the Qur'an was copied from elsewhere, and this has no basis whatsoever.

Where did I imply this? Sorry if that's the way it sounds - it wasn't my intention.

Well I don't find HeiGou's posts convincing at all. Nowhere has he proved that the Qur'an is in contradiction to scientific thinking. If anything, we have only seen that many geologists don't even know about the function of mountains while there are some that put forward evidence for it; yet this is far from being a contradiction.

If people are claiming that the Qur'an conforms with current scientific thinking, when in fact it doesn't, that's what I call a contradiction.

Greek scientists they mave been, and years of education and experimentation might have been what lead them to make their predictions; yet on the other hand we have a man with no such education or knowledge whose statements are remarkably accurate. Is it such a wonder that he is regarded as having received revelation, while such others as have produced no such miraculous work are not?

Remarkably accurate? Which statements do you mean?

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Hello again,

OK, so the mountains are set firm. That's clear, but hardly earth shattering. What scientific information is miraculously contained here?

Remarkably accurate? Which statements do you mean?

Not only do the verses say that the mountains are set firm, but also that they were placed so that the earth would not convulse under us. When we apply modern knowledge to this concept, it is quite amazing that they fit together quite accurately.

Do you really believe that Muslims have interpreted these verses in terms of plate tectonics for as long as the Qur'an has existed?

Probably not. Though I don't see a reason why people could not understand the concept that mountains conferred stability to the earth. In modern times, when we do know about plate tectonics, it only further enhances the understanding.

Where did I imply this? Sorry if that's the way it sounds - it wasn't my intention.

I apologise if I misunderstood you; I was referring to the part where you compared the statement, "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" with "clear statements constituting original thought".

If people are claiming that the Qur'an conforms with current scientific thinking, when in fact it doesn't, that's what I call a contradiction.

However, a contradiction does not arise by mere claims; it has to be proven.

Peace .

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Muhammad,

Not only do the verses say that the mountains are set firm, but also that they were placed so that the earth would not convulse under us. When we apply modern knowledge to this concept, it is quite amazing that they fit together quite accurately.

How? My understanding of the current scientific view on this is as follows: scientists know mountains can be formed as a result of the collision of two plates (i.e. a convulsion of a sort); I'm not aware of any scientific opinion that says that the purpose of mountains is to keep the earth from convulsing under us. That doesn't sound like a scientific statement at all, but of course I could be wrong about this. Bring on the evidence.

Probably not. Though I don't see a reason why people could not understand the concept that mountains conferred stability to the earth. In modern times, when we do know about plate tectonics, it only further enhances the understanding.

Again, you'll need to explain to me how the theory of plate tectonics enhances your understanding of these verses.

If you can do that, it would prove my point: plate tectonics provides a new way to interpret the verses.

I apologise if I misunderstood you; I was referring to the part where you compared the statement, "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" with "clear statements constituting original thought".

Sorry for not being clear - I can see how you got that impression, although it wasn't my intention. When I said "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" I meant that the interpretations were derived from the thinking of others (i.e. modern scientists).

However, a contradiction does not arise by mere claims; it has to be proven.

Oh really? If you say that grass is orange, and I say it's blue, we contradict each other, do we not?

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

How? My understanding of the current scientific view on this is as follows: scientists know mountains can be formed as a result of the collision of two plates (i.e. a convulsion of a sort); I'm not aware of any scientific opinion that says that the purpose of mountains is to keep the earth from convulsing under us. That doesn't sound like a scientific statement at all, but of course I could be wrong about this. Bring on the evidence.

I mentioned some of the evidence in post #39, where Dr. Zaghlool El-Naggar states:

The stabilization of lithospheric plates by mountains is effected by their sinking deeply into the zone of weakness of the Earth (the asthenosphere) as wooden pegs sink into the ground to stabilize the corners of a tent.
.....

The above-mentioned discussion clearly indicates that one of the basic functions of the mountains on land is its role in stabilizing continental masses lest these would shake and jerk, making life virtually impossible on the surface of our planet.

And there was another quote aswell.

Again, you'll need to explain to me how the theory of plate tectonics enhances your understanding of these verses.

If you can do that, it would prove my point: plate tectonics provides a new way to interpret the verses.

I don't think that is the case at all. If I read the verse and understand from it that mountains stabilise the earth, how is its interpretation changed if I then read from geologists that this is indeed what mountains do? Knowledge of geology would enhance or confirm my understanding, but in no way offers a "new" interpretation since we are still talking about mountain stability.

Sorry for not being clear - I can see how you got that impression, although it wasn't my intention. When I said "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" I meant that the interpretations were derived from the thinking of others (i.e. modern scientists).

Thank you for the clarification .

Oh really? If you say that grass is orange, and I say it's blue, we contradict each other, do we not?

If I showed you the orange grass in my hands or by some other means, then your words would be meaningless unless you could provide evidence to prove the contrary. Simply saying that "grass is blue" might be a contradictory statement, but upon baseless grounds.

Peace.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings HeiGou,

I think that the question of their function remains open and even to talk of their function presupposes a Creator.

But there is evidence to indicate their biological function, and accepting such a biological function does not necessarily mean you must believe in God.

I would have to be sure that they are quoting fairly - there have been cases of Western scientists objecting to what they see as misrepresentation of their views.

Fair enough.

It doesn't seem co-incidental to me. The finger is simply an extremity we use a lot - other parts of the body are also unique.

But the fingerprint confers individuality and many other parts of the body are not so unique in this regard. Nevertheless, we should not forget the key message of the verse; any underlying points of interest only add to what is already there.

Peace .

 

[Muhammad]

Re: Atheism

Greetings,

czgibson, what are the odds of an illiterate man (pbuh) mentioning precise scientific facts that were discovered only recently? I cannot see how you can deny that. or you believe somebody else wrote it in the Qur'an right after the discoveries?

I've never seen any evidence of what you speak of. People have presented me with the 'scientific miracles in the Qur'an' argument, but instead of "precise scientific facts" I just see vaguely poetic ramblings that could be interpreted in various ways, and which have obviously just been sought out by Muslim apologists after the discoveries they are alleged to relate to.

It is true that some people interpret verses that don't have any scientific references and extract meanings that go against the intent of a verse, however, it should be mentioned that whenever reference is made to subjects of a scientific nature - which are typically not very descriptive due to the fact that the Qur'an is a guidance for mankind as opposed to a book devoted to science - even in such brief references as these, the Qur'an conforms exactly to modern science and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the time in which it was revealed. I believe exampes of these have already preceded numerous times, and to name a couple include the formation of human life mentioned in the Qur'an, as well as the notion of orbits for the planets.

So it should be distinguished that while there are those with little knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an reading in scientific facts where they do not exist, there is a proper methodology that can be followed in order to extract examples of such verses.

Another imporpant point that needs to be understood is that the scientific aspect of the Qur'an is but one of its many miracles and not the only amazing feat performed by an illiterate man.

Peace.

 

[czgibson]

Re: Atheism

Greetings Muhammad,

It is true that some people interpret verses that don't have any scientific references and extract meanings that go against the intent of a verse, however, it should be mentioned that whenever reference is made to subjects of a scientific nature - which are typically not very descriptive due to the fact that the Qur'an is a guidance for mankind as opposed to a book devoted to science - even in such brief references as these, the Qur'an conforms exactly to modern science and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the time in which it was revealed.

This is simply not true. For a start, as you say, the Qur'an is often vague on these points (and I agree with you on the reason for this) - none of the Qur'an's "scientific knowledge" in these vague passages was known until after the relevant scientific discoveries. Before the scientific discoveries, the "scientific" phrases in the Qur'an would have been interpreted differently by commentators.

Aside from these "vague" examples, I know of no examples from the Qur'an that clearly show radical or supernatural foresight.

I believe exampes of these have already preceded numerous times, and to name a couple include the formation of human life mentioned in the Qur'an, as well as the notion of orbits for the planets.

Are you referring to the much-touted Qur'anic embryology? Where bones are formed before muscles, in contradiction with modern knowledge?

So it should be distinguished that while there are those with little knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an reading in scientific facts where they do not exist, there is a proper methodology that can be followed in order to extract examples of such verses.

Yes: wait for a scientific discovery, then search the Qur'an for any phrase that could be stretched in order to appear to be in agreement with it, then publicise the "miracle".

Peace

 

[جوري]

Re: Atheism

Without further reading your comments...... I'll post a few facts with convictions
You are neither an Islamic scholar, well versed in Semitic languages mainly Arabic ... nor are you a scientist or a doctor or a neonatologist of any sort ... if you wish to discuss third party knowledge with the board. I'd be a little less cavalier about the sort of bravado you display in way of condescension rather than facts... Personally I couldn't care less what you are or what becomes of you ... you want to worship the devil ... money or yourself it is all very inconsequential....Al-Idris(1100–65?). A 12th-century Arab geographer and scientist, wrote one of the great medieval works of descriptive geography. He spent much of his early life traveling in North Africa and Spain. In 1145 he entered the service of Roger II, the Norman king of Sicily, and began a lifetime of work as a mapmaker and geographer. He made a planishere in silver for King Roger II, and described the world in Al-Kitab al-Rujari (Roger's Book), also entitled Nuzhat al-Mushtaq fi Ikhtiraq al-Afaq ... The great Roger the II crushed the globe Given to him by Al-Idrisi stating the Earth is flat...
the Earth was round for Muslims 1400 years ago how long has the "scientific west" been advanced of for that matter civilized "30. Wal-arda bada dhalika dahaha"
"31. Akhraja minha ma-aha wa maraaha"
"32. Wal-jibala arsaha"
"33. Mata-an lakum wa li an-aamikum",... even High Altitude hypoxia was described in the Quran.. فمن يرد الله ان يهديه يشرح صدره للاسلام ومن يرد ان يضله يجعل صدره ضيقا حرجا كانما يصعد في السماء كذلك يجعل الله الرجس على الذين لايؤمنون I can personally get into the period assigned for breast feeding in the quran and how it corresponds in real life to full myelination and disappearance of the babinski sign.... and since its wonders never cease, There are modern days doctors who study what it was in Joseph's shirt that has made Jacob regain back his sight with success and detail that will soon be published in esteemed medical journals.... You are not keeping up with history or science (Continuing education) or religion and I know you are not interested in a point by point debate, but have mustered the English language, and the art of condescension and that hardly qualifies for respectful debate ... with that being said I'd personally refrain from further engaging this "gent" on something that he clearly has no genuine interest in learning....
peace to you as well