Music in worship

[Ramadhan]

Prayer is any communication between God and human beings. Several postures are fine for prayer. Jesus also prayed to the Father while standing with his hands raised.

Did jesus sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

 

[Asiyah3]

While I would agree for the most part that Music should be kept out of worship, I feel like some of the things being said here by Muslims are just... Well, ridiculous. So many members are trying to say why they believe it to be forbidden, but the reasons being given are just laughable... (Well, in my opinion anyway.) Sure, some music will cause some people to feel like getting up and dancing or singing along... But you cannot say that for all music. What about classical music? Instrumentals? I know you don't want to admit it, but some people do benefit from this kind of music, and they simply don't do the things you're saying they do. I think it would be far more respectable if some of the members just said they don't listen to music because they believe that's what has been commanded, instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments. (Most of which I'm pretty sure aren't even found in Islamic texts...)

Again, this is just my opinion... I hope what I've said hasn't offended anyone.

We're not trying to justify music being forbidden. Rules are rules. We're neither expecting a non-Muslim to agree with music's prohibition. We are Muslims and we follow the Qur'aan and Sunnah. However, we are discussing the possible effects of music because a non-Muslim asked us. I don't see anything wrong in this, or do you mean whenever a non-Muslim asks us about an Islamic ruling we should answer "Because Allah says so"?

The truth is there is a wisdom behind everything prohibited. Allah has forbidden from us that which is bad for us. There is nothing wrong in trying to discuss why it could be bad for us. For example if you check this thread a non-Muslim did start to understand that there is a wisdom behind the rulings:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134294372-family-converted-islam-without-me-4.html#post1363517

There is a difference in understanding and agreeing. I can understand why non-Muslims date years before getting married, yet I don't agree.

 

[M.I.A.]

music cant make you go crazy all the time, they wouldnt have put radios in cars otherwise.
anyway thats the only time i listen to music and at work if the radios on... its a bad habbit of mine. :hiding:

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

@Muslimah

I have many many times.

I don;t know why so many people keep saying music makes everyone dance and go crazy. I listen to music and I am the last person to dance or go crazy. Anyway, my point about having favourite reciters is that in it's almost, if not the same, as having a favourite singer. What exactly is the difference? Most of the time people are judging the sound of the voice.

Well from what ive seen, ive seen people dance to tunes and dance like crazy , and the OPs Question was regarding Music in worship and not in general life. you choose to listen to Music, your will do what you will. But my opinion is that praising God with Music i see no need. However, you may have a different opinion regarding that and i have no problem.

Note that the OP asked the Q regarding what the Islamic view is and not your personal views.
The difference is that we are reciting the Quraan a holy book we tend to choose to read that as it keeps us strong in faith , whereas your singing some song or listening to it and whatever you choose to do that.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

While I would agree for the most part that Music should be kept out of worship, I feel like some of the things being said here by Muslims are just... Well, ridiculous. So many members are trying to say why they believe it to be forbidden, but the reasons being given are just laughable... (Well, in my opinion anyway.) Sure, some music will cause some people to feel like getting up and dancing or singing along... But you cannot say that for all music. What about classical music? Instrumentals? I know you don't want to admit it, but some people do benefit from this kind of music, and they simply don't do the things you're saying they do. I think it would be far more respectable if some of the members just said they don't listen to music because they believe that's what has been commanded, instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments. (Most of which I'm pretty sure aren't even found in Islamic texts...)

Again, this is just my opinion... I hope what I've said hasn't offended anyone.

Classical music? Instrumentals and the benefit from them? Islamically what benefit is there? Please Explain InshaAllaah.

There was once a lecture regarding the topic of Music i cannot remember the lecture. The shiekh Mentioned that the Heart can love one thing in a sense. That if you make yourself listen to Music constantly, like almost in love with it as you can see with many in this world today, and then when you listen to the Quraan you will not want to listen to it, your love for the Quran is not there, you get bored you dont want to listen to it etc. But if you listen to the Quraan constantly, and then you play music, you will hate the music, your love is only for the Quraan you will hate music. I can for a fact 100% say that it is true. Anyways i hope i made sense.


Peace

 

[Hugo]

Classical music? Instrumentals and the benefit from them? Islamically what benefit is there? Please Explain InshaAllaah.

The benefit is in listening to what is beautiful and how the sounds mix and mingle and themes are explored and how this can be satisfying and deeply personal. There is also of course the absolute Joy of playing the music yourself or singing with others. From a simple point of view who would discourage a mother singing a lullaby to a sick child and kids love singing and making music. There also sacred music where a text is taken and set to music and this can be hugely uplifting in praise to God for all he has done.

If one goes down the road of "benefit" than everything we do comes under that spotlight from football to needle point - all these are part of who we are but of course they can be abused and draw us away from God - but surely we can and should worship, serve and praise Him in all we do, with respect we cannot be reciting the Bible or Qu'ran all the time can we?

 

[Dagless]

The benefit is in listening to what is beautiful and how the sounds mix and mingle and themes are explored and how this can be satisfying and deeply personal. There is also of course the absolute Joy of playing the music yourself or singing with others. From a simple point of view who would discourage a mother singing a lullaby to a sick child and kids love singing and making music. There also sacred music where a text is taken and set to music and this can be hugely uplifting in praise to God for all he has done.

That satisfaction is only what you feel, it still alters your state of consciousness. Small doses of heroin can be deeply satisfying too, but it isn't used in worship.
There is absolute joy in a lot of things but 1) feeling joy does not make something beneficial, and 2) not everyone feels joy at music.

If one goes down the road of "benefit" than everything we do comes under that spotlight from football to needle point - all these are part of who we are but of course they can be abused and draw us away from God - but surely we can and should worship, serve and praise Him in all we do, with respect we cannot be reciting the Bible or Qu'ran all the time can we?

That doesn't make sense. God has told us how to worship, serve, and praise Him - but you say we can't just do that all the time? Do you know better than God? :S

 

[Ramadhan]

I'm forever amused by christians.

When it comes to mosaic laws in OT which hinder their lifestyles (such as circumcision, not eating pork, fasting, etc etc), they would say "oh, when jesus died, it abrograted the mosaic laws so we are not supposed to observe them"

But when it fancies them, although it is only in their OT and jesus did not observe it, they quickly say "oh, but david did it, so we can do it too".

which I find staggering.
Christians believe jesus is god, and do they not want to pray and worship in the same way of their god?

But No, and now because christians today want to use instrumental music in their worship they point out to david who according to OT use instrumental music (which I dont think it's true, based on the Quran), while Jesus definitely never used instrumental music in his worship, and it seems he sang hymns in the same manner of a muslim reciting quran.

 

[truth finder]

Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.

 

[Dagless]

Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.

Lol! Well that was subtle... maybe you'd like to hand out some pamphlets too?

 

[Hugo]

That satisfaction is only what you feel, it still alters your state of consciousness. Small doses of heroin can be deeply satisfying too, but it isn't used in worship.
There is absolute joy in a lot of things but 1) feeling joy does not make something beneficial, and 2) not everyone feels joy at music. That doesn't make sense. God has told us how to worship, serve, and praise Him - but you say we can't just do that all the time? Do you know better than God? :S

I cannot speak about heroin as I have never experienced it but I assume you know what it is like or are you just telling us what you have been told? However, it is undeniable that Music can bring Joy and that joy can be lasting, meaningful and good and anyone who denies that knows nothing whatever about Music or joy. From you words it seems to be you have a very narrow conception of worship so may I ask, do you think worship is just saying your prayers or do you have a wider definition?

Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."

So of course one can worship in prayer and reading but if ones whole life is given over to God then every simple act, from washing up to the most heroic action becomes a form of worship because we do it FOR God. Do you not agree that one could say ones prayers faultlessly but if that is not all worked out in your life in godly actions and holy living it is worthless?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.

Seems that the people be listening to Music, and call themselves "Christians", do you ever recall Jesus Pbuh singing or praising God with Music?
Same story can be applied to Islaam, there are former drugs addicts, theives etc etc who chose to forget alot of that and become a clean and rightoues person. Also we as muslims do believe in Jesus (peace and blessings be unto him), one is not a "Muslim" if they do not believe in Jesus(pbuh).

Thanks for sharing the story though, very much appreciated

Peace

 

[Hugo]

I'm forever amused by christians. When it comes to mosaic laws in OT which hinder their lifestyles (such as circumcision, not eating pork, fasting, etc etc), they would say "oh, when jesus died, it abrograted the mosaic laws so we are not supposed to observe them". But when it fancies them, although it is only in their OT and jesus did not observe it, they quickly say "oh, but david did it, so we can do it too". which I find staggering. Christians believe jesus is god, and do they not want to pray and worship in the same way of their god?

But No, and now because christians today want to use instrumental music in their worship they point out to david who according to OT use instrumental music (which I dont think it's true, based on the Quran), while Jesus definitely never used instrumental music in his worship, and it seems he sang hymns in the same manner of a muslim reciting quran.

In the OT there are 631 laws but many are effectively obsolete because they refer to circumstances or institutions that no longer exist - for example the Temple or laws about showing yourself to the priest for certain kinds of illness and many other laws of a ceremonial nature. One can of course use any or all of these laws in an analogical sense. I assume Islam does the same - for example the Qu'ran has verses that tells you how to decide the end and beginning of days in Ramadan but you don't do that now, you uses a clock so you are disobeying one of Allah's laws?

There is a famous story about the illustrious Rabbi Hillel who died about 30 years before Jesus’ ministry. The story goes that he was asked by someone to teach him the whole of the Torah while he stood on one leg. Hillel replied “love your neighbour as yourself, this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary". Do you see the point, focusing on the minutiae of the law is like not being able to see the forest for the trees so if you or I say our prayers faithfully but fail to love our neighbour as ourselves then the whole point of the law is lost and its only end is self-righteousness.

There is no need to point to David for music (though Muslim scholars do) because music, singing and instruments are mentioned almost everywhere, even Moses is recorded as singing - surely you cannot think rationally that the Bible has been corrupted to such an extent that Music has been inserted into all over the place when it was not there before?

 

[Dagless]

I cannot speak about heroin as I have never experienced it but I assume you know what it is like or are you just telling us what you have been told?

So you only speak about things you've experienced? I don't think saying heroin brings about a sense of satisfaction or well-being is anything revolutionary. If you have some other evidence then please go ahead.

However, it is undeniable that Music can bring Joy and that joy can be lasting, meaningful and good and anyone who denies that knows nothing whatever about Music or joy.

Not all music brings joy, and not all people feel joy from music.

From you words it seems to be you have a very narrow conception of worship so may I ask, do you think worship is just saying your prayers or do you have a wider definition?

Like I've already stated; it's not my definition, and it doesn't matter what I think. The rules of worship have already been stated by God.

Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."

Ok, but people can also state that drugs bring them closer to God. I don't see how stating other religions makes the argument stronger. The fact remains that music directly affects concentration and state of consciousness - you can quote as many religions as you like but it won't change that fact.

 

[Hugo]

So you only speak about things you've experienced? I don't think saying heroin brinsg about a sense of satisfaction or well-being is anything revolutionary. If you have some other evidence then please go ahead.

I can only speak with authority about things I have experienced - that seem obvious. I don't think I said or even implied that ALL music brings joy or is good; there are lots of kinds of music I dislike but since you seem to think in universals it is obvious that not all music is bad. I have read a large number of hadith on Music and one central idea is that it MIGHT lead you into sin but to me that argument must also apply to almost anything else - reading, writing, watching a films, talking,... all directly affects conciousness and it is undoubtedly true that they can lead you away from what is best but they are not intrinsically evil are they surely - so why single out Music? Many people as you probably know have used excerpts from the Qu'ran in films to denounce Islam itself - I guess you would think that wrong even blasphemous so here we have something, the Qu'ran itself used for a wrong?

 

[Dagless]

I can only speak with authority about things I have experienced - that seem obvious. I don't think I said or even implied that ALL music brings joy or is good; there are lots of kinds of music I dislike but since you seem to think in universals it is obvious that not all music is bad. I have read a large number of hadith on Music and one central idea is that it MIGHT lead you into sin but to me that argument must also apply to almost anything else - reading, writing, watching a films, talking,... all directly affects conciousness and it is undoubtedly true that they can lead you away from what is best but they are not intrinsically evil are they surely - so why single out Music?

I have never seen a hadith which showed it was allowable or even one which was ambiguous towards music in worship.

Many people as you probably know have used excerpts from the Qu'ran in films to denounce Islam itself - I guess you would think that wrong even blasphemous so here we have something, the Qu'ran itself used for a wrong?

Not too sure what this means.

 

[Muhaba]

Christians are entitled to their own opinions regarding music or whatever. But don't come here trying to convince us Muslims that we are wrong and that one can get closer to God with Music. We believe that Music is forbidden by God and God obviously knows better with what we can get closer to Him and what will take us farther away from God and religion.

Those who want to learn about Islam should not let this point become a hindrance. They should learn Islam, reading Quraan and Islamic history, getting to know muslims, etc. to know whether it is the truth or not. And once you get enough information and have made up your mind regarding this religion, then insha-Allah (God willing) you will be enlightened and will accept whatever this religion has ordained.

 

[Tyrion]

Christians are entitled to their own opinions regarding music or whatever. But don't come here trying to convince us Muslims that we are wrong and that one can get closer to God with Music. We believe that Music is forbidden by God and God obviously knows better with what we can get closer to Him and what will take us farther away from God and religion.

Those who want to learn about Islam should not let this point become a hindrance. They should learn Islam, reading Quraan and Islamic history, getting to know muslims, etc. to know whether it is the truth or not. And once you get enough information and have made up your mind regarding this religion, then insha-Allah (God willing) you will be enlightened and will accept whatever this religion has ordained.

Well, not all Muslims feel this way... It's not very honest of you to make it sound like it's totally unanimous. In fact, I didn't even know some Muslims considered music forbidden until I came onto this forum.

 

[Muhaba]

Music is forbidden in Islam. you should research this. you can read the commentary to Surah Luqman where you'll find the ruling on music. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's allowed.

 

[Tyrion]

Music is forbidden in Islam. you should research this. you can read the commentary to Surah Luqman where you'll find the ruling on music. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's allowed.

I don't want to get into my own personal views here... I just wanted to point out that it's not something that everyone agrees on, and that there isn't total unanimity on the issue.