Music in worship

[Muhaba]

oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?

 

[Tyrion]

oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?

I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.

 

[Muhaba]

well, that's the thing. it doesn't matter what someone believes. beliefs automatically doens't make them right. They have to back their beliefs with evidence from Quraan and Sunnah. if they don't have it, then it is an incorrect belief and they will be asked by Allah and even be punished.

 

[truth finder]

[FONT=&quot]People tend to draw to whatever brings pleasure or joy to them. For instance, drug addicts are drawn to drug because it brings pleasure to them. Of course it is very unhealthy pleasure as we all agree. Although most of these people know taking drug is wrong, they cannot escape its enslavement[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for fear of losing pleasure[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. The same is true with many other chronically sinful behaviors such as pornography, sex abuse and alcoholism. A well-known traditional way is to punish them harshly so that they would stop their sinful acts for fear of punishment. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Simply people try hard to suppress their sinful desires with the reminder of hell fire. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It may work temporarily, but easily fails in the long run. The best solution is to bring much greater healthy joy to them so that they would seek this joy rather than other temporary sinful pleasures. This is the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in the loving relationship with Jesus. I [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not know[/FONT][FONT=&quot] how many of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]readers[/FONT][FONT=&quot] have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]really [/FONT][FONT=&quot]expedited this [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kind of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]intensive joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the love of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Without exaggeration [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I can tell other people that all the other joys or pleasures in life is nothing compared with this[/FONT][FONT=&quot] joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] This is one of the reasons why I get up an hour early every morning to enjoy the joyful personal time with God. All I do during this time is to worship and praise God with songs and music.[/FONT]

 

[Ramadhan]

Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."

Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

 

[Ramadhan]

Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.

Let's just assume what you said is 100% true.

I've got news for you:

The pagans, the primitive tribes, the shamans have all done what your priest friend did:

They have cured people from their physical and mental illnesses using music and dance, and joy of the salvation from their gods and goddesses.

so, are you now going to join those tribes?

Here's some tribes in Kalimantan (Indonesia) where you might want to convert to:

 

[Ramadhan]

There is no need to point to David for music (though Muslim scholars do) because music, singing and instruments are mentioned almost everywhere, even Moses is recorded as singing - surely you cannot think rationally that the Bible has been corrupted to such an extent that Music has been inserted into all over the place when it was not there before

Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

And if music is such an important part of christian worship as christians claim today, why did jesus not ask his disciple to sway their hips, shake their bootay, danced their hearts out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when they were praying to and worshipping their god?

 

[truth finder]

Hi naidamar

The fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, while those tribes do not. The fundamental difference is that people cured from the physical and mental illnesses praise and glorify the God of the universe, while those tribes do not. The fundamental difference is that we experience intense joy in the love of Jehovah, while those tribes do not.

 

[Ramadhan]

The fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, while those tribes do not.

Are you a jehovah witness?

The fundamental difference is that people cured from the physical and mental illnesses praise and glorify the God of the universe, while those tribes do not.

anyway, who are you to say that those tribes did not praise and glorify the God of the universe?

The fundamental difference is that we experience intense joy in the love of Jehovah, while those tribes do not.

Excuse me, but those tribes also experience intense joy in the love of their god.


You see, I am showing you that your priest friend experience using music to cure people is not unique.

Anyway, this is to ponder:

Did jesus sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

 

[Hugo]

oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?

Can you tell us where in the Qu'ran it says music is forbidden, as far as I can tell the word music is never used but I can only look it up in English. In the hadith it is used but I can only find about 6 examples and none of those are clear at least to me because of their contexts. For example there is one that speaks of camels knowing they will be slaughtered when they hear music and another that seems to say music and wearing silk is not always good - so its anything but clear to me - so perhaps you can explain. When I go to the middle east, which is often, I don't see much evidence and everyone seems to have music on in their cars and you can buy CDs everywhere plus even in Saudi Arabia there is a concert hall???

 

[Hugo]

Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god? And if music is such an important part of christian worship as christians claim today, why did jesus not ask his disciple to sway their hips, shake their bootay, danced their hearts out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when they were praying to and worshipping their god?

Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns. But where do you get all this swaying of hips and so on and you seem to be confusing music and dancing - though in general I find nothing wrong with dancing. The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not. Just a question, but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time, when I see Muslim pray there also is a lot of movement and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?

Why would it be wrong to shout or even scream hallelujah (just as some Muslims shout 'God is Great', or is that wrong?) if one want to praise God and at the same time one can praise God in silence from the heart. When I look at the stars and the wonders of nature as well as what God has done for us I can hardly keep quite sometimes - am I wrong?

 

[Ramadhan]

Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns.

singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an

So, my question remains :

Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not

It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car.
That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.

but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time

And your point is....?

and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?

Are you a jew?

 

[Ramadhan]

Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns.

singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an

So, my question remains :

Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not

It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car.
That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.

but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time

And your point is....?

and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?

Are you a jew?

 

[Hugo]

singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an

Well I have heard both and in some cases the analogy is sound such as singing metrical Psalms but there is huge variation and different cultures may well be more or less inhibited in how they worship - but it is God the looks to the heart not just the outward manifestation - is this how you see it in Islam?

So, my question remains : Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

I cannot think that I can be any clearer that what I said in my earlier post "Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns but how exactly is unknown."

It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car. That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.

You are just inventing things now and deciding that because you don't like what others do that it is automatically disgusting but that does not make it wrong and perhaps points to a trace of your own self-righteousness and readiness to judge others but not necessarily throw a light on your own attitude. But tell me what do you think of say Sufi's and whirling dervishes as part of Islamic worship?

 

[truth finder]

Hi naidamar

I think hugo made the good answer to your question. Many people are drawn closer to God in worship with music, while others are drawn closer to God in worship without music. That is fine, because we are not robots and we are all different. In a previous post I said that when good lyrics or prayers are combined with good music, the synergy effect is quite dramatic. Of course good lyrics or prayers are more important than music. Without good lyrics or prayers, it would be just a musical performance. In worship music is not a goal in itself but a good way to get closer to the presence of God.

In previous posts you seemed to ask me a few times “What makes Christians joyful?” In the biblical time God’s presence was allowed as the Holy Spirit only to a few special people such as Moses, Elijah and Elisha. In the new era of grace initiated by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit can come to anybody whose sinful heart is washed away by the blood of Jesus. This state, namely, all our sins are forgiven by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness and as a result the Holy Spirit dwells in our heart, is called salvation. We are joyful because we have confidence to meet God face to face in heaven. We are joyful because God is with us right in our heart as the Holy Spirit. You may not know how much joyful we are as the children of God. Of course we have peace in our heart, but it is too weak to describe our spiritual journey. Joy is the right word to express our genuine emotion in our loving relation with Jesus.

 

[Asiyah3]

Well, not all Muslims feel this way...

As-salaamu alaykum,

Islam is not what is felt, especially by present-day's Muslims considering (generally) our poor understanding of the religion. Islam is based on the Qur'aan and Sunnah.

Abu Dawood narrated that the prophet SAAS said: "...I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error."

If you really want to follow this advice of the Prophet SAAS, the following thread could be a start:

http://www.islamicboard.com/worship-islam/20238-music-singing-light-quran-sunnah.html

If you know of some companions of the Prophet SAAS or well-known scholars, such as Hasan al-Basri, who used to play or listen to musical instruments and say it's halal, al-hamdulillah I'm open-minded to hear the explanation. I've read a few refutations of some scholars that try to defend music but to be blunt, they've been pretty lame.

It's not very honest of you to make it sound like it's totally unanimous. In fact, I didn't even know some Muslims considered music forbidden until I came onto this forum.

Most Muslims I know listen to Music, but al-hamdulillah these many also admit that music is forbidden or say they don't know. Some others don't even bother to seek Islamic knowledge and haven't even heard the Hadiths on music. Many born Muslims belong to this group unfortunately, knowing only that which their parents have taught them or that which they've read in school, which are often the most basic things about Islam (Often something along the lines don't eat pork, don't drink alcohol, pray, fast, read the Qur'aan etc.). And some others aren't willing to follow the ruling even if they hear it and the evidence for it, and keep following their culture and/or whims and desires.

I don't want to get into my own personal views here... I just wanted to point out that it's not something that everyone agrees on, and that there isn't total unanimity on the issue.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.

Ok.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.

Aslaamu`Alaaykum Bro

Nobody is getting into arguments, also if you have nothing to say regarding Halal and Haram then you should indeed remain silent, and regarding music being haram or halal, are you going to depend on the minority or majority of people listening to music or are you going to look at the Quraan and Sunna h which has been prescribed for you?


forgive me if i have said a word that has offended you.

‘Whosoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, then let him speak good or remain silent.’
[Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree]

"O you who believe! Keep your duty to Allah and fear Him, and speak (always) the truth."
(Surah Al Ahzaab:ayah 70)

 

[Ramadhan]

I cannot think that I can be any clearer that what I said in my earlier post "Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns but how exactly is unknown."

But do you think that "swaying his hips, shaking his bootay, dancing his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god" is in jesus' character?

But tell me what do you think of say Sufi's and whirling dervishes as part of Islamic worship?

Anyone with very basic understanding of islam would definitely know that whirling dervishes is bid'ah (invention in worship) and hence is never part of Islamic worship.
Where did you get info that whirling dervishes is part of islamic worship, anti sialmic sites?

 

[Ramadhan]

I assume Islam does the same - for example the Qu'ran has verses that tells you how to decide the end and beginning of days in Ramadan but you don't do that now, you uses a clock so you are disobeying one of Allah's laws?

The qur'an verses that you may have cited do not command "how" to mark the start of fasting period, but tells "when".
Also, in Islam innovation in worldly affairs are allowed as long as they are not contrary to fiqh.
While innovation in worship (ibada) are not allowed as they could lead to shirk, which has been proven by christianity itself by worshipping jesus, mary, holy spirit, saints, cross, music, etc etc.

There is a famous story about the illustrious Rabbi Hillel who died about 30 years before Jesus’ ministry. The story goes that he was asked by someone to teach him the whole of the Torah while he stood on one leg. Hillel replied “love your neighbour as yourself, this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary".

I often wonder who exactly is christians following? jesus? saul? hillel?
I have read that Jesus sent to "the lost sheep of israel" and that he "come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it".

Do you see the point, focusing on the minutiae of the law is like not being able to see the forest for the trees so if you or I say our prayers faithfully but fail to love our neighbour as ourselves then the whole point of the law is lost and its only end is self-righteousness.

I am sorry that you cannot see the forest while still seeing the trees clearly.
And I am sorry that christians cannot BOTH pray faithfully AND love their neighbors as themselves.

Personally, I think it is a cop out.

 

[Ramadhan]

Many people are drawn closer to God in worship with music, while others are drawn closer to God in worship without music.

And I have also shown you before that many pagans, tribes, etc are also drawn closer to God in worship with music.

In worship music is not a goal in itself but a good way to get closer to the presence of God.

Sounds like you are dependent on music to get closer to God.

This actually reminds me of my former friends who swore by God that they felt much closer to God when they were ingesting drugs.

In previous posts you seemed to ask me a few times “What makes Christians joyful?” In the biblical time God’s presence was allowed as the Holy Spirit only to a few special people such as Moses, Elijah and Elisha. In the new era of grace initiated by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit can come to anybody whose sinful heart is washed away by the blood of Jesus. This state, namely, all our sins are forgiven by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness and as a result the Holy Spirit dwells in our heart, is called salvation. We are joyful because we have confidence to meet God face to face in heaven. We are joyful because God is with us right in our heart as the Holy Spirit. You may not know how much joyful we are as the children of God. Of course we have peace in our heart, but it is too weak to describe our spiritual journey. Joy is the right word to express our genuine emotion in our loving relation with Jesus.

nice fiction, not very creative though.