Abu Zakariya
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
Muslim teacher suspended over handshake
- Thread starter sonz
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SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Bottom line is this, it is a western country. These are the customs. Get used to it. If something must change (which seems to be the case), then it must be those that are rocking the boat that should change.
Bottom line is this, it is a western country. These are the customs. Get used to it. If something must change (which seems to be the case), then it must be those that are rocking the boat that should change.
Abu Zakariya
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
I don't see what this has to do with what we were talking about?
Again, my point was that Muslims aren't paranoid and trying to create an "us vs. them" scenario for simply pointing out for example that there are countries that want to restrict the freedom of Muslim women. I never mentioned whether or not I feel that the country has a right to legislate these kind of things (even though it goes without saying that I would like to see my Muslim sisters not being forced to expose certain bodyparts to men, which they don't want to expose), I was just pointing out a fact.
By the way, since you don't seem to mind that certain governments are in the process of legislating laws which restrict the freedom of Muslims, would you feel the same if anti-Semitic laws were passed? For instance, what if the Netherlands decided to ban the yarmulke?
I don't see what this has to do with what we were talking about?
Again, my point was that Muslims aren't paranoid and trying to create an "us vs. them" scenario for simply pointing out for example that there are countries that want to restrict the freedom of Muslim women. I never mentioned whether or not I feel that the country has a right to legislate these kind of things (even though it goes without saying that I would like to see my Muslim sisters not being forced to expose certain bodyparts to men, which they don't want to expose), I was just pointing out a fact.
By the way, since you don't seem to mind that certain governments are in the process of legislating laws which restrict the freedom of Muslims, would you feel the same if anti-Semitic laws were passed? For instance, what if the Netherlands decided to ban the yarmulke?
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SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
To be honest, I'm getting a little confused as to what your point is, and whether or not you get my point. I don't think we are on the same page in our discussion.
So I will just state my position.
In any given western (or eastern) country, there are laws, rules, customs, and traditions. If any person, of any religion, is to live in that country, they should expect to live by these things. Don't expect it to change for you. In my country, I will not change my traditions and customs because you don't like it. If you grew up here, then you should be used to that. If you just came here, you need to get used to that. I would not expect the people of another country to change their ways for me if I went there.
A person can choose to not follow the customs in my country as long as it is on their own time, and is not viewed as rude, harmful, or offense. When they are being employed, they are now on my time. On my time, they must follow my customs. If this is not acceptable to them, they are free to resign from my employment.
If all of these things are too much to accept, then a person should consider finding a country that is more suitable to thier beliefs and lifestyle.
To be honest, I'm getting a little confused as to what your point is, and whether or not you get my point. I don't think we are on the same page in our discussion.
So I will just state my position.
In any given western (or eastern) country, there are laws, rules, customs, and traditions. If any person, of any religion, is to live in that country, they should expect to live by these things. Don't expect it to change for you. In my country, I will not change my traditions and customs because you don't like it. If you grew up here, then you should be used to that. If you just came here, you need to get used to that. I would not expect the people of another country to change their ways for me if I went there.
A person can choose to not follow the customs in my country as long as it is on their own time, and is not viewed as rude, harmful, or offense. When they are being employed, they are now on my time. On my time, they must follow my customs. If this is not acceptable to them, they are free to resign from my employment.
If all of these things are too much to accept, then a person should consider finding a country that is more suitable to thier beliefs and lifestyle.
Abu Zakariya
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
I wasn't even discussing that. You wrote the following:
And so I replied:
I never said that the people of a country should change their customs because of me, so I don't see why you have to bring that up. I was simply answering your post in which you accused some Muslims of trying to create an "us vs. them scenario" when they are only pointing out that there are anti-Muslim laws that are about to be passed.
If you feel that a country should have the right to have anti-Muslim laws, fine. But I don't see why you have to criticize us for simply pointing out that these laws exist or may come into existence.
I wasn't even discussing that. You wrote the following:
And so I replied:
I never said that the people of a country should change their customs because of me, so I don't see why you have to bring that up. I was simply answering your post in which you accused some Muslims of trying to create an "us vs. them scenario" when they are only pointing out that there are anti-Muslim laws that are about to be passed.
If you feel that a country should have the right to have anti-Muslim laws, fine. But I don't see why you have to criticize us for simply pointing out that these laws exist or may come into existence.
Woodrow
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
One thing to keep in mind. Because a person is Muslim, does not entail they are a foreigner. In the Western Countries many Muslims were born in the country. They are not expressing a nationalistic custum. This is a question of the right for the citizen of a country, to have the right to practice his/her religion as believed.
This is a very basic belief guaranteed in most of the worlds "Civilized" nations. The only time that right should be infringed upon is if the practice poses a danger to the safety of any person or any property.
I do not recall the refusal of shaking hands as being life or health threatening. Nor am I aware of it damaging another persons private property.
One thing to keep in mind. Because a person is Muslim, does not entail they are a foreigner. In the Western Countries many Muslims were born in the country. They are not expressing a nationalistic custum. This is a question of the right for the citizen of a country, to have the right to practice his/her religion as believed.
This is a very basic belief guaranteed in most of the worlds "Civilized" nations. The only time that right should be infringed upon is if the practice poses a danger to the safety of any person or any property.
I do not recall the refusal of shaking hands as being life or health threatening. Nor am I aware of it damaging another persons private property.
SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Any such laws that can even remotely be thought of as "anti-muslim" are actually "pro-western".
It is westernophobia that causes you to claim that countries have "anti-muslim" laws on the books. It is anti-western propaganda made up by those playing the victim role.
Any such laws that can even remotely be thought of as "anti-muslim" are actually "pro-western".
AvarAllahNoor
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
It's not a custom for all to shake hands like we do here in the west. Some put their hands together and bow (Japanese) so i think if that lady had said Aslam Aliakam instead it would be the equivalent no?
It's not a custom for all to shake hands like we do here in the west. Some put their hands together and bow (Japanese) so i think if that lady had said Aslam Aliakam instead it would be the equivalent no?
SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
I understand your point, but if a japanese teacher were to get a job in a western country they would be expected to follow the customs of that country, not japanese customs.
I understand your point, but if a japanese teacher were to get a job in a western country they would be expected to follow the customs of that country, not japanese customs.
AvarAllahNoor
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Well most people wouldn't make a song and dance about it i guess. - Perahps she can wear a glove, as it's the skin contact that's forbidden here. - Just working out a compromise
BTW - I've never heard of handshaking being implemented in the small print as one of the rules of employment
Well most people wouldn't make a song and dance about it i guess. - Perahps she can wear a glove, as it's the skin contact that's forbidden here. - Just working out a compromise
BTW - I've never heard of handshaking being implemented in the small print as one of the rules of employment
SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
A good suggestion.Perahps she can wear a glove, as it's the skin contact that's forbidden here. - Just working out a compromise
Abu Zakariya
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Singling out Muslim women the way they do is indeed anti-Muslim. Your claim would be true if the law said that only western clothing is acceptable and that Muslim women aren't allowed to wear niqab along with Jews who aren't allowed to wear yarmulkes and sikhs who aren't allowed to wear turbans, for instance. But they specifically target Muslims and so it is obviously anti-Muslim.
Singling out Muslim women the way they do is indeed anti-Muslim. Your claim would be true if the law said that only western clothing is acceptable and that Muslim women aren't allowed to wear niqab along with Jews who aren't allowed to wear yarmulkes and sikhs who aren't allowed to wear turbans, for instance. But they specifically target Muslims and so it is obviously anti-Muslim.
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SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
I would need to see the specific wording of a law on the books before I was convinced.
I would need to see the specific wording of a law on the books before I was convinced.
Abu Zakariya
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Just take a look at the article I linked to. Here are their own words:
The cabinet finds the wearing of a burka undesirable
The government will search for the possibility to provide a ban
They specifically want to restrict the freedom of Muslim women.
Just take a look at the article I linked to. Here are their own words:
The cabinet finds the wearing of a burka undesirable
The government will search for the possibility to provide a ban
They specifically want to restrict the freedom of Muslim women.
Muezzin
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
The debate about whether certain laws are anti-Islamic belongs in a separate thread, which you are welcome to create. In this thread, please only discuss the news story posted in the original post.
The debate about whether certain laws are anti-Islamic belongs in a separate thread, which you are welcome to create. In this thread, please only discuss the news story posted in the original post.
SilentObserver
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
The "Equal Treatment" Commission is a farce. You know very well that a person refusing to shake hands for any reason that was not religious, would not be supported by these hypocrites. It is discrimination against a person based upon thier non-religious affiliation.
The "Equal Treatment" Commission is a farce. You know very well that a person refusing to shake hands for any reason that was not religious, would not be supported by these hypocrites. It is discrimination against a person based upon thier non-religious affiliation.
aamirsaab
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Only mankind could get worked up by such a small thing. I mean, first it's the veil, now it's a handshake. Millions of people die on a daily basis, and the rest of mankinds interest lies in the social ramifications of handshake rejection?
I used to think humans could actually save this world, or at the very least be bothered too. How very wrong I have been.
Only mankind could get worked up by such a small thing. I mean, first it's the veil, now it's a handshake. Millions of people die on a daily basis, and the rest of mankinds interest lies in the social ramifications of handshake rejection?
I used to think humans could actually save this world, or at the very least be bothered too. How very wrong I have been.
Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Actually, the law itself is aimed at any clothing which makes someone completely unrecognizable in public, so it would also include wearing a closed motorcycle helmet while not actually driving for example.
But I agree. The reason why it is introduced is because of unease about the Burqa, which is seen as a piece of clothing that is designed to inhibit communication and thus integration. The principle behind it is also considered to run contrary to Dutch values.
Actually, the law itself is aimed at any clothing which makes someone completely unrecognizable in public, so it would also include wearing a closed motorcycle helmet while not actually driving for example.
But I agree. The reason why it is introduced is because of unease about the Burqa, which is seen as a piece of clothing that is designed to inhibit communication and thus integration. The principle behind it is also considered to run contrary to Dutch values.
Abdul Fattah
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Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake
Goes to show:
002.120
YUSUFALI: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
PICKTHAL: And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.
SHAKIR: And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
But why complain about on an internet forum, when you can just as well complain to them trough mail.
[email protected] Is the email address they have on their website
Keep it polite people
Goes to show:
002.120
YUSUFALI: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
PICKTHAL: And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.
SHAKIR: And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
But why complain about on an internet forum, when you can just as well complain to them trough mail.
[email protected] Is the email address they have on their website
Keep it polite people
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