Muslim teacher suspended over handshake

[Abu Zakariya]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Actually, the law itself is aimed at any clothing which makes someone completely unrecognizable in public, so it would also include wearing a closed motorcycle helmet while not actually driving for example.

But I agree. The reason why it is introduced is because of unease about the Burqa, which is seen as a piece of clothing that is designed to inhibit communication and thus integration. The principle behind it is also considered to run contrary to Dutch values.

Muezzin asked us to stay on the topic in this thread but I might just mention that the people that want to introduce the law themselves said that it is specifically against the burqa, so their intention is pretty clear.
And I do question since when telling women how to dress has been a part of Dutch values. The Netherlands have been famous for their liberal values, so a law which restricts Muslim women's freedom runs contrary to their supposed values, even if they try to rationalize it with anti-Islamic rhetoric (i.e. saying that it oppresses women, etcetera). Anyways, this is another topic.

 

[KAding]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Goes to show:
002.120
YUSUFALI: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

In all honesty. Does that same quote not apply to a lot of Muslims as well? Do many Muslims not demand from us we respect their scriptures, their prophet even in non-Muslim lands.

 

[KAding]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Muezzin asked us to stay on the topic in this thread but I might just mention that the people that want to introduce the law themselves said that it is specifically against the burqa, so their intention is pretty clear.
And I do question since when telling women how to dress has been a part of Dutch values. The Netherlands have been famous for their liberal values, so a law which restricts Muslim women's freedom runs contrary to their supposed values, even if they try to rationalize it with anti-Islamic rhetoric (i.e. saying that it oppresses women, etcetera). Anyways, this is another topic.

I agree, it is anti-liberal. Thats why I strongly oppose the law. That does not mean the Burqa is not against Dutch values, it clearly is. However, so is the law banning it!

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

In all honesty. Does that same quote not apply to a lot of Muslims as well? Do many Muslims not demand from us we respect their scriptures, their prophet even in non-Muslim lands.

Theirs a difrence inbetween asking someone not to insult; an in asking someone to disobey the rules of their religion when they are in conflict with the tradition of that region.

 

[KAding]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Theirs a difrence inbetween asking someone not to insult; an in asking someone to disobey the rules of their religion when they are in conflict with the tradition of that region.

I am not so sure. They expect us to change our behavior, because they find it insulting to draw, say, a cartoon of Muhammad. Guess what? Not shaking hands is also considered insulting and discriminatory in much of the West. Thats why the head teacher who decided to fire her is convinced he is fighting for equality rather than against it: "I protect people who feel discriminated by her behavior."

Besides, lets be honest here. We all know sharia law puts all kinds of restrictions on other religions. Including stuff like forbidding proselytizing, conditions on the building of new churches, disallowing ringing the church bell, and blasphemy. Especially respecting the latter is easier said than done when your message is that Muhammad was a false prophet, which is in itself blasphemous. And thats just for People of the Book, God knows what restrictions are put on polytheists.

In short, I am not at all convinced Muslim law is any more tolerant than what the Dutch are doing now, in fact, it sounds a whole lot worse to be honest. But I approve of neither, so don't worry .

 

[SilentObserver]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Many westerners would be very offended if they reached out thier hand to you and you refused it. This is very insulting.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

I am not so sure. They expect us to change our behavior, because they find it insulting to draw, say, a cartoon of Muhammad. Guess what? Not shaking hands is also considered insulting and discriminatory in much of the West.

I'll repeat my previous point, there's a difference in between not doing something out of religious restrictions and in making a mockery out of something.
Here's what your own laws say regarding it: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaad

Thats why the head teacher who decided to fire her is convinced he is fighting for equality rather than against it: "I protect people who feel discriminated by her behavior."

The rule applies both to male muslims not shaking the hands of females as it does for female muslima's not shaking the hands of males, so there is nothing discriminatory about it. This argument is a smokescreen. Everybody with a lil' bit common sense can look straight trough it. Not only is the rule neutral to both sexes, but next to that it has nothing to do with one sex being inferior or superior, or people looking down on others.

Besides, lets be honest here. We all know sharia law puts all kinds of restrictions on other religions. Including stuff like forbidding proselytizing, conditions on the building of new churches, disallowing ringing the church bell, and blasphemy. Especially respecting the latter is easier said than done when your message is that Muhammad was a false prophet, which is in itself blasphemous. And thats just for People of the Book, God knows what restrictions are put on polytheists. In short, I am not at all convinced Muslim law is any more tolerant than what the Dutch are doing now, in fact, it sounds a whole lot worse to be honest. But I approve of neither, so don't worry .

I know that some of the things are done certain governments, but just because some governments implement shariah in their laws doesn't mean that every single rule by that government is Islamic and shariah-based. So far I haven't read any hadeeth that speak about church bells and such. So I think none of the things you mentioned are actually from the shariah but you're welcome to search the databases and prove me wrong of course, for now I'm to lasy.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Many westerners would be very offended if they reached out thier hand to you and you refused it. This is very insulting.

Yeah I know, even some muslims are offended when I don't shake their hand. But most people seem to respect it when I get the chance to explain why.

If someone reaches out a hand, and the other person replies:
"Sorry, please don't take this personal but my religion does not allow the shaking of hands between people of opposite gender".
And then after this reply the person is still offended then he is a bigot if you ask me.

 

[M for Maliki]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

The Dutch really want Muslims to leave the Netherlands and I think they should do it.People who are unable to live their own way of life should go.

No foolin. Nothing wrong with a Hijrah on your spiritual rap sheet, eh?

 

[M for Maliki]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Yeah I know, even some muslims are offended when I don't shake their hand. But most people seem to respect it when I get the chance to explain why.

If someone reaches out a hand, and the other person replies:
"Sorry, please don't take this personal but my religion does not allow the shaking of hands between people of opposite gender".
And then after this reply the person is still offended then he is a bigot if you ask me.

This all depends on interpretation of the relevant texts, and frankly, I don't see much problem with it. The handshake is about as old western tradition as you can get (it predates christianity in Europe). I actually asked Shaykh Nur about this at one point and he said it is acceptable considering the circumstances we live in (IE in a western country surrounded by people who have no clue about our culture). Bear in mind, this is also only in reference to being offered a handshake, so I'm not going around and grabbing the girlies hands. According to the Maliki maddhab, it also doesn't violate wudu. the Shafi'i madhhab says it does however.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Well, if one's argument is that someone can be insulted for being denied a handshake, don't you think that a women can be insulted or feel bad if some guy wants to touch her against her will?
There's a difference between not wanting to shake hands with someone out of being rude, and out of one's perception of modesty.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Only mankind could get worked up by such a small thing. I mean, first it's the veil, now it's a handshake. Millions of people die on a daily basis, and the rest of mankinds interest lies in the social ramifications of handshake rejection?

I used to think humans could actually save this world, or at the very least be bothered too. How very wrong I have been.

We have just enough time to destroy it, so saving it out of the question brother!

 

[KAding]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

I'll repeat my previous point, there's a difference in between not doing something out of religious restrictions and in making a mockery out of something.
Here's what your own laws say regarding it: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaad

Well, again. This is all in the eye of the beholder. Besides, I don't think 'smaad' makes sense here since we are dealing with an religion/ideology not with persons. To me criticizing Islam is no different from criticizing Communism, libertarianism or Taoism.

The rule applies both to male muslims not shaking the hands of females as it does for female muslima's not shaking the hands of males, so there is nothing discriminatory about it. This argument is a smokescreen. Everybody with a lil' bit common sense can look straight trough it. Not only is the rule neutral to both sexes, but next to that it has nothing to do with one sex being inferior or superior, or people looking down on others.

I agree it's a pretty weak argument. I do not believe he should have fired her based on this, but I do think it's his prerogative to do so.

I know that some of the things are done certain governments, but just because some governments implement shariah in their laws doesn't mean that every single rule by that government is Islamic and shariah-based. So far I haven't read any hadeeth that speak about church bells and such. So I think none of the things you mentioned are actually from the shariah but you're welcome to search the databases and prove me wrong of course, for now I'm to lasy.

Actually, I didn't bring this up because some governments in Muslim countries are practicing this, although no doubt they do. I bring it up because it is stated in Islamic law. It is part of the shariah and any Islamic state must follow these rules, since God has willed it. Check out islam-qa.com or islamonline.net or look for the threads on this in the forum.

 

[brenton]

Re: Netherlands: Islamic teacher sacked over hand shake

Many westerners would be very offended if they reached out thier hand to you and you refused it. This is very insulting.

Many Westerners have some things to learn about living in the world. I think there is a difference between deep religious commitment and cultural instincts. I hardly shake hands anymore--not since that Asian flu a few years back. Some guys are into it; many are not. Of course, I'm not a "hugger" either, so maybe I'm odd.