Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[aadil77]

Maybe Islam teaches that the Garden of Eden was in heaven and that Adam went there after giving the names of the animals. Then he returned to earth (with Eve) as a penalty for sinning.

sorry what giving of animal names are you talking about?

Adam never 'returned' to earth he was sent there for the first time after disobeying Allah

Quran Chapter 7 (18) O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (19) Then began satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever." (20) And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. (21) So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" (22) They said: "our Lord! we have wronged our own souls: if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy we shall certainly be lost." (23) (Allah) said: "Get ye down, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood― for a time." (24) He said: "therein shall ye live and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

 

[aadil77]

On the first post on the thread "Bible vs Qur'an ... etc." Al-manar wrote:

"Unlike the Quran that views Adam as been taught the names of everything by God, the bible would view Adam as the one who chose the names of the creatures!"

This in reference, I believe, to Surah 2:33-34.

ok yep these verses:

Quran Chapter 2 (30) And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. (31) They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. (32) He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

 

[Hiroshi]

ok yep these verses:

Quran Chapter 2 (30) And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. (31) They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. (32) He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

Okay. So did Adam name the animals at a time when he was in heaven and they were on earth? Makes better sense.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Those conditions are set by Him, the logic is when the Creator gives you a way of worshipping Him - thats what He has commanded and thats what you've got to follow

To the mind of Muslims Allah has dominion over non-believers also. But you must understand that Allah’s commands have a bearing only on His believers. Of what value are His commands to those who do not believe Him? Therefore the aim of Islam is to first make more and more believers. This is contradictory to the approach of science, which does not require believers but only people educated enough to understand facts. As of today, two-thirds of mankind does not yet believe in Allah and His teachings, unless you take the word Allah to mean a generic word which incorporates the meaning different sorts of believers give to the word. The English word God has taken on a generic meaning. But the word Allah is still confined to the meaning Islam gives it. It is best to use the word Allah as simply the God of the Muslims (also used by the Arab Christians, but which word then takes on a generic meaning or a meaning different from the meaning Muslims give it). Thus, your insight “that’s what He has commanded and that’s what you’ve got to follow” applies only to the Muslims.

the carpet has nothing to do with islam other than praying on a clean place, you could pray on a sheet of paper if you wanted to, 'looking into their own palms' - I'm assuming you're talking about du'a, your hands are no 'aid' or idols, you can do du'a without raising your hands if you want

The object of your worship whether prostrating on the carpet or on a piece of paper and doing dua with or without your hands is Allah, who is outside you. Is it not simple to understand that anything which is outside you is an object to you and therefore Allah is also an object to you? Idols are also objects. The Hindu idols are concrete objects which you can see with your eyes and touch with your hands. The Islamic idol of Allah is an object of sound – otherwise the word Allah would not exist.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Because man altered them, by Allahs will

I don’t think it is fair logic to say man altered them and by Allah’s will. Anything that Allah wills would be the work of Allah. Therefore it would mean that Allah altered his scriptures till finally He decided He would no more alter scriptures and sent down the Quran.

What do you think? human nature is we'll usually only to do things if there are consequences of our actions,

This is so only in the case of immature people. The matured individuals have a moral righteousness within them and would not need any promptings from outside.

this is why you hardly get any practicing christians today - apparently they're already forgiven for their sins for they don't fear any punishment of god

You are saying that Islam is practiced on the basis of fear. So much for the religion of peace! (The only peace that goes with fear is the peace of the graveyard.)

 

[K.Venugopal]

A god for rain and a god for drought, a god for harvest, a god for famine, would they get along? If that is the result of meditation then how pitiable!

The result of meditation is the obliteration of the subject-object dichotomy. Thus the result of meditation of not more gods but less gods, till the one God moves from His objective position and merges into the subject, thus ending the role of God.

 

[aadil77]

Okay. So did Adam name the animals at a time when he was in heaven and they were on earth? Makes better sense.

I don't know, but probably, here's an explanation of the verse:

And He taught Adam the names, that is, the names of things named, all of them, by placing knowledge of them into his heart; then He presented them, these names, the majority of which concerned intellectual beings, to the angels and said, to them in reproach, ‘Now tell Me, inform Me, the names of these, things named, if you speak truly’, in your claim that I would not create anything more knowledgeable than you, or that you are more deserving of this vicegerency; the response to the conditional sentence is intimated by what precedes it.

 

[aadil77]

To the mind of Muslims Allah has dominion over non-believers also. But you must understand that Allah’s commands have a bearing only on His believers. Of what value are His commands to those who do not believe Him? Therefore the aim of Islam is to first make more and more believers. This is contradictory to the approach of science, which does not require believers but only people educated enough to understand facts. As of today, two-thirds of mankind does not yet believe in Allah and His teachings, unless you take the word Allah to mean a generic word which incorporates the meaning different sorts of believers give to the word. The English word God has taken on a generic meaning. But the word Allah is still confined to the meaning Islam gives it. It is best to use the word Allah as simply the God of the Muslims (also used by the Arab Christians, but which word then takes on a generic meaning or a meaning different from the meaning Muslims give it). Thus, your insight “that’s what He has commanded and that’s what you’ve got to follow” applies only to the Muslims.

The object of your worship whether prostrating on the carpet or on a piece of paper and doing dua with or without your hands is Allah, who is outside you. Is it not simple to understand that anything which is outside you is an object to you and therefore Allah is also an object to you? Idols are also objects. The Hindu idols are concrete objects which you can see with your eyes and touch with your hands. The Islamic idol of Allah is an object of sound – otherwise the word Allah would not exist.

I don't know what you're on about, all I will say is we don't pray to any objects - know matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. Lets not turn this into a hinduism thread

 

[aadil77]

I don’t think it is fair logic to say man altered them and by Allah’s will. Anything that Allah wills would be the work of Allah. Therefore it would mean that Allah altered his scriptures till finally He decided He would no more alter scriptures and sent down the Quran.

Everything happens by Allah's will, if you're gonna murder someone, you'll be able to do it because of the free will god has given you. If god wanted He could prevent you from doing it.

This is so only in the case of immature people. The matured individuals have a moral righteousness within them and would not need any promptings from outside.

Nope. No matter how 'matured' people are; if there was no punishment for their wrong doings they would take advantage of this fact - as you can see in the case of christians. This is how god has created us, no matter how intelligent or mature you are what you do will always come down to the bare consequences you'll face as a result of your actions.

You are saying that Islam is practiced on the basis of fear. So much for the religion of peace! (The only peace that goes with fear is the peace of the graveyard.)

In Islam everything is balanced and realistic. This is not just a religion based on love where everything you do is out love for god, this is unrealistic and doesn't work - perfect example = christians. And this is not just a religion based on fear where everything you do is because you fear gods punishment. We have a balance of both, everything we do is to seek gods pleasure and avoid His punishment.

btw I hate all this 'religion of peace' nonsense, by living the islamic way of life you can achieve peace, but not everything is about peace, there is also struggle and theres also punishment.

 

[جوري]

The result of meditation is the obliteration of the subject-object dichotomy. Thus the result of meditation of not more gods but less gods, till the one God moves from His objective position and merges into the subject, thus ending the role of God.

?????????????????????

 

[cat eyes]

You keep saying that you don't worship anything but Allah. But you appear to be needing innumerable conditions to worship Allah, right from a particular direction to a particular format. The logic is that if the worship is nothing other than Allah, then directly worshiping Him without any conditions would be the order. But of course, all of us need many aids towards worship because we are all in a limited body with limited senses. However, the aids that Muslims use, including the carpet, the looking into their own palms are valid but when Hindus use similar aids, including "dolls", that is condemned. We are all in one boat. The only people who are on shore are those who do not see God outside them but one with their own consciousness. Such people do not need worship at all. Hinduism is home to those who have reached the shore.

your trying your very best but its clear you don't seem to be making any sense:muddlehea

please LEARN the difference between your religion and ours because you make out like you know our religion but you don't. your just throwing whatever thing which comes into your head and trying to find some fault which you can't lol

you know pft all

 

[bhakti]

I see you consider yourself and everything in the world divine. So you could worship anything then. Even a lump of faeces must be divine, no? Hey, you could even worship yourself!

lol....that got me laughing out loud man! The problem is with your simplistic approach to the universe. You don't realize that the lump of faeces or a lump of gold or the computer in front of you or the stars far far away are actually images formed in your mind. Yup, the stars aren't far away. They are in your mind. Just as when you take a photograph of something far away, the photograph is in your hands. Similarly, when you see, hear etc or when you bump into a wall or hit your hand with a hammer it is the brain and ultimately consciousness that is projecting these sensations.

Ever heard of Quantum Physics? This branch of theoretical physics is making waves in the present day scientific world and the progress science is making in the realm of consciousness and our perception of reality is alarming to say the least.

Several experiments have shown beyond doubt that mathematics and the known laws of the universe fail when it comes to perception. When mathematical formulae would tell you that only event1 can happen, consciousness perceives event2! This creates a dichotomy between what should actually be happening out there and what consciousness percieves is happening out there! Science is maturing towards understanding that universal consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all existence.

That the vedantic schoold of philosophy has already discussed this in detail while modern science is only now taking a peek at this fascinating revelation is something astonishing! This is why almost all theoretical physicists of note right has always held a fascination for the vedanta school.

Of course, whether you are willing to make such a drastic change in your perception of the world and join this fascinating journey or whether you want to hold on to your simplistic subject-object view of the world remains a decision you have to make.

"The vastest knowledge of today cannot transcend the buddhi (intellect) of the Rishis in ancient India; and science in its most advanced stage now is closer to Vedanta than ever before."
-- Alfred North Whitehead

"The Veda was the most precious gift for which the West had ever been indebted to the East."
-- Voltaire

"Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief."
-- Romain Rolland

"It was only my first meeting with the Indian philosophy that confirmed my vague speculations and seemed at once logical and boundless."
-- William Butler Yeats

"The Vedic literature opens to us a chapter in what has been called the education of the human race to which we can find no parallel anywhere else."
-- Professor F. Max Muller

 

[جوري]

^^ can I set you loose on the new board evangie? I think we can use one last bit of bombastic entertainment before the holy month..you can go on quoting people, see whose quote beats the other quote's a$$ :smile:

 

[bhakti]

^^ can I set you loose on the new board evangie? I think we can use one last bit of bombastic entertainment before the holy month..you can go on quoting people, see whose quote beats the other quote's a$$ :smile:

And there goes another cheap shot! That the best you could do? Am i not justified in giving insane insaan an answer to his question?

 

[K.Venugopal]

your trying your very best but its clear you don't seem to be making any sense:muddlehea please LEARN the difference between your religion and ours because you make out like you know our religion but you don't. your just throwing whatever thing which comes into your head and trying to find some fault which you can't lol

The only difference between Islam and Hinduism is that while Islam absolutely posits that the creator is eternally separate from His creation, there are schools in Hinduism (not all schools) which posit that the creator and created are one and the same. In other words Islam and a large portion of Hinduism are alike - it is only the non-dual school of Hinduism that goes beyond Islam. By this of course it is not made out that one religion is greater than the other or anything like that. All religions are paths that help man to reach the ultimate.

 

[K.Venugopal]

btw I hate all this 'religion of peace' nonsense, by living the islamic way of life you can achieve peace, but not everything is about peace, there is also struggle and theres also punishment.

Unless everything is about peace, the lessons of religion would not have been learnt.

 

[Hiroshi]

I don't know, but probably, here's an explanation of the verse:

And He taught Adam the names, that is, the names of things named, all of them, by placing knowledge of them into his heart; then He presented them, these names, the majority of which concerned intellectual beings, to the angels and said, to them in reproach, ‘Now tell Me, inform Me, the names of these, things named, if you speak truly’, in your claim that I would not create anything more knowledgeable than you, or that you are more deserving of this vicegerency; the response to the conditional sentence is intimated by what precedes it.

Thank you. This must mean then that genuine Muslims do not believe in evolution. I mean, you wouldn't expect to find million year old fossil remains of apelike ancestors of humanity if man originated, not on earth but in heaven, and as a perfectly formed new creature. I'm happy that we agree there. I don't believe in evolution either.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I don't know what you're on about, all I will say is we don't pray to any objects - know matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. Lets not turn this into a hinduism thread

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

 

['Abd Al-Maajid]

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

aye! What did you just say?

 

[Hiroshi]

Because man altered them, by Allahs will

You believe that angels have no free will, but that men and djinn do have free will, right? (Surah 18:50)