Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[Lynx]

You keep saying that you don't worship anything but Allah. But you appear to be needing innumerable conditions to worship Allah, right from a particular direction to a particular format. The logic is that if the worship is nothing other than Allah, then directly worshiping Him without any conditions would be the order. But of course, all of us need many aids towards worship because we are all in a limited body with limited senses. However, the aids that Muslims use, including the carpet, the looking into their own palms are valid but when Hindus use similar aids, including "dolls", that is condemned. We are all in one boat. The only people who are on shore are those who do not see God outside them but one with their own consciousness. Such people do not need worship at all. Hinduism is home to those who have reached the shore.

I wanted to point something perhaps of interest to you K.Venu. Some Sufi orders in Islam have the same view of God and have chosen to worship God by trying to merge their conciousness with his holy being rather than have a set of rituals act as intermediaries to God; they, I suspect, believe they've gone beyond the need of rituals guiding their direction of worship. Just goes to show you the different ways people reach God. These comments about 8 limbed blue dolls only show the ignorance of some people...not to mention goes against instructions in the Quran of not insulting other people's Gods.

edit: i just re-read your last line and i don't think it's entirely accurate. How many hindus actualyl see beyond hte idol? I think for the most part hindus around the world don't look beyond the character the idol represents and in this case I don't think hinduism is the 'home' for people who have reached your metaphorical shore. One thing about Islam that probably should be emphasized is that it makes it easier for direct communication with God just because it's so strict on monotheism. I guess what I am trying to say is that the typical Muslim is closer to God than the typical Hindu because the Hindu is behind more 'veils' .

 

[Muslimeen]

Muslims say that whatever they do, they only worship Allah, nothing and no one else. But is it not a fact that in a Hadith Mohammad said that even sex is worship if done properly? So though Muslims worship only Allah, it is not as if this worship does not extend to other activities in day-to-day living. This is precisely the position of the Hindus. Though they worship the ultimate, they have the liberty to focus their worship on tangible representations of the ultimate.

I know this is not a hinduism thread, and will probably get hit for derailing, but someone told me hindus actually worship the private part of a man, I did a bit of research and found this. Is it true?? Tell me it's not. If it is I guess it's time you stop trying to ridicule Islam and muslims. What do you have to say about Kal Ki Avtar??

Worship of the Phallus
According to some scholars, worship of Shiva Linga in effect means worship of the reproduction function. For, they say that the other meaning of the Sanskrit word ‘Linga’ is gender in general and phallus (the male reproductive organ) in particular. They believe that the base of the Lingam corresponds to the Yoni which mean vagina or the female reproductive organ. Correspondence of Linga and Yoni in a Shiva Linga is therefore interpreted as the representation of the process of copulation. Scholars further opine that the Kalash (container of water) that is suspended over the Shiva Linga from which water drips over the Linga also correspond to the idea of intercourse.

Connecting the origin of Shiva Linga to the early Indus Valley civilization, scholars opine that tribes of the Indus Valley took to the togetherness of Lingam and Yoni in a Shiva Linga as the point of energy, creation and enlightenment

 

[Tyrion]

Thank you. This must mean then that genuine Muslims do not believe in evolution. I mean, you wouldn't expect to find million year old fossil remains of apelike ancestors of humanity if man originated, not on earth but in heaven, and as a perfectly formed new creature. I'm happy that we agree there. I don't believe in evolution either.

I don't think that Islam rejects evolution entirely, but only when it comes to man.


Also, I'll ask one more time if we could please try not to make this thread into a Hinduism vs. Islam debate.

 

[aadil77]

You believe that angels have no free will, but that men and djinn do have free will, right? (Surah 18:50)

yep, men and jinn have the god given free will to do what they want

 

[aadil77]

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

what object, I see no object, have you lost your marbles?

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called


Hinduism VS Islam

 

[Muslimeen]

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called


Hinduism VS Islam

I think you should, in fact I was thinking about the same.

 

[K.Venugopal]

aye! What did you just say?

Just the guy whose certificate you need!

 

[K.Venugopal]

I wanted to point something perhaps of interest to you K.Venu. Some Sufi orders in Islam have the same view of God and have chosen to worship God by trying to merge their conciousness with his holy being rather than have a set of rituals act as intermediaries to God; they, I suspect, believe they've gone beyond the need of rituals guiding their direction of worship. Just goes to show you the different ways people reach God.

I entirely agree with you that many Sufis have gone beyond dualism but so long as their followers are largely within the matrix of dogmatic Islam, Sufism is celebrated only by the romantics.

These comments about 8 limbed blue dolls only show the ignorance of some people...not to mention goes against instructions in the Quran of not insulting other people's Gods.

I really do not understand the Quranic instructions about not insulting other peoples’ Gods but by unfailingly saying that Islam is the only true religion, does the Quran do aught else but insult other religions?

edit: i just re-read your last line and i don't think it's entirely accurate. How many hindus actualyl see beyond hte idol?

Relatively only a few people look, wish to look or have the capacity to look beyond idols. The idols are for the masses – popular Hinduism. It must also be remembered that Vedanta (comprising the more subtle teachings of Hinduism) is not a promise to the masses but to individuals who are ready to plunge into those subtle depths.

I think for the most part hindus around the world don't look beyond the character the idol represents and in this case I don't think hinduism is the 'home' for people who have reached your metaphorical shore.

You are right here. I should have said “Hinduism is also home to those who have reached …”

One thing about Islam that probably should be emphasized is that it makes it easier for direct communication with God just because it's so strict on monotheism. I guess what I am trying to say is that the typical Muslim is closer to God than the typical Hindu because the Hindu is behind more 'veils' .

Your “closer to God” phrase appears to miss the point that God is that which the believers believe and if the idol worshipper believes his idol is God, then he would not have reason to believe he is far from God. However, Islam offers no prospect of closing the gap between God and the believer whereas Hinduism is all about the believer (worshiper) becoming one with the worshipped entity.

 

[Trumble]

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called


Hinduism VS Islam

Do you have to? It isn't a football match. And, with respect, nobody here seems to enough knowledge and understanding of both religions to make any meaninful 'vs' type comparisons.

 

[aadil77]

Do you have to? It isn't a football match. And, with respect, nobody here seems to enough knowledge and understanding of both religions to make any meaninful 'vs' type comparisons.

You ask what ever you want in that relevent to hinduism/islam, it doesn't have to be comparison thread, saves having all these completely off topic posts here

 

[bhakti]

I just re-read your last line and i don't think it's entirely accurate. How many hindus actualyl see beyond hte idol? I think for the most part hindus around the world don't look beyond the character the idol represents and in this case I don't think hinduism is the 'home' for people who have reached your metaphorical shore. One thing about Islam that probably should be emphasized is that it makes it easier for direct communication with God just because it's so strict on monotheism. I guess what I am trying to say is that the typical Muslim is closer to God than the typical Hindu because the Hindu is behind more 'veils' .

I would disagree with the view that idol worship is only a way to concentrate one's devotion so that one may rise above this level and then go "beyond the idol" and reach God consciousness. Though an idol does help with concentration that is not the only function.

Worshiping a beautiful image is only an extension of the idea that the world around you is only one conjured up by the collective consciousness (a view that even modern science is leaning towards). When you look at an idol as God, what you are doing is conjuring God within the image because the idol itself is a projection made by the consciousness so you are free to impart whatever qualities you can to it. If you think the image is God, it is God. If you think it isn't, it simply isn't. Consciousness rules everything. I hope I'm making sense

If you have seen bhajans etc. all over India, you'll see people literally dancing and singing aloud lost in their love for Krishna. I think this is the ultimate expression of bhakti/devotion. Mere reverence is simply too shallow. Love for your God, the longing desire to picture him as your own little child whom you can cuddle in your arms goes far beyond reverence.

Like Emerson famously said - "If we meet no Gods, its because we harbour none"

And yes Sufism is awesome! If I'm not mistaken, the culture has it's roots in India right?

 

[جوري]

And there goes another cheap shot! That the best you could do? Am i not justified in giving insane insaan an answer to his question?

ha? I expect that if your answers were 'justified' that you'd at least address insane insaan by her correct gender. You can't get the little things correct, and you expect that the bigger details dazzle us?

all the best

 

[K.Venugopal]

I know this is not a hinduism thread, and will probably get hit for derailing, but someone told me hindus actually worship the private part of a man, I did a bit of research and found this. Is it true?? Tell me it's not. If it is I guess it's time you stop trying to ridicule Islam and muslims.

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

 

[aadil77]

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

I love how you try to portray it in complicated words...............;D

 

[Insaanah]

?????????????????????

Gobbledegook!

What kind of belief is it, that cannot be explained simply?

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

For anyone who's confused or dazzled by the language, in simple terms, yes.

Love for your God, the longing desire to picture him as your own little child whom you can cuddle in your arms goes far beyond reverence.

That made me laugh! I have no longing desire to picture God as a helpless child that has to be picked up, be so small as to fit in my arms and be cuddled! Glorified and Exalted be He, above that!

The problem is with your simplistic approach to the universe. You don't realize that the lump of faeces or a lump of gold or the computer in front of you or the stars far far away are actually images formed in your mind. Yup, the stars aren't far away. They are in your mind.

As you are in your mind?

When you look at an idol as God, what you are doing is conjuring God within the image because the idol itself is a projection made by the consciousness so you are free to impart whatever qualities you can to it. If you think the image is God, it is God. If you think it isn't, it simply isn't. Consciousness rules everything.

So, according to you, if someone says that a lump of faeces is god, it becomes god. Or a table, a tree, or a TV. You just don't see the ridiculousness and fallacy of what you're saying.

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

The inherent problem Hindus have here is that they conceive God to be an object, and cannot go beyond that taught constraint of theirs, because for centuries Hindus have carved their gods with their own hands and then worshipped them. To them, god cannot be anything but an object. That centuries old tradition and belief is fully imbibed in them, and their minds cannot ask whether that is actually the truth or not, is it possible to worship an All Powerful God who is not mixed up in His creation? Nor will they ask, how come our (Hindus') god couldn't even separate himself from his creation, and distinguish himself from them?

This idea now, of god being what you want him to be, you yourself are creating that idea of what you want him to be, in your mind. In non-duality, the creator god is arises from Brahman, so the creator god to you, is not only an object, but also was also created. What kind of a creator is it that was created from something himself?

The minute you yourself, or any person, starts defining what is or isn't God, that entity is not God, because you have created his definition yourself.

Muslims do not make up their definition of God to suit themselves, and we do not define God. We believe in Him as He has defined Himself:

"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need
He begets not, nor was He begotten
And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Qur'an, Chapter 112)

I invite you to accept and believe in God as He has defined Himself.

Peace.

 

[syed_z]

Worshiping a beautiful image is only an extension of the idea that the world around you is only one conjured up by the collective consciousness (a view that even modern science is leaning towards). When you look at an idol as God, what you are doing is conjuring God within the image because the idol itself is a projection made by the consciousness so you are free to impart whatever qualities you can to it. If you think the image is God, it is God. If you think it isn't, it simply isn't. Consciousness rules everything. I hope I'm making sense

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that "..a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God." If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).


Science rather is coming to the conclusion that God is ONE and thats it! Could you please provide me with European and Western Scientists accepting Hinduism in Large numbers... i can give you a list who are accepting Islam in Large numbers...

 

[syed_z]

If you have seen bhajans etc. all over India, you'll see people literally dancing and singing aloud lost in their love for Krishna. I think this is the ultimate expression of bhakti/devotion.

are you related to Bhakti movement in India ?


Difference between Hinduism , Christianity and budhism Vs Islam is that in Islam God is not to be found only in the Private Sphere of ones life, rather God has given us not only personal Laws but A Collective set of Laws and norms for any Civilized society... so this life for a Muslim, where he not only works for his own better, but also for the better of others.... we have beautiful teachings, i don't know why are you wasting time here ? Unless you could Prove that Hinduism is better than Islam ?

 

[Trumble]

Science rather is coming to the conclusion that God is ONE and thats it!

Rubbish... 'science' is coming to no conclusion regarding God (or gods) at all, and probably never will and never can. What 'models of God' have supposedly been 'eliminated'? Point us to the research papers, please.

Could you please provide me with European and Western Scientists accepting Hinduism in Large numbers... i can give you a list who are accepting Islam in Large numbers...

Go on then; it will need to be a long list. There are maybe, what, a couple of million scientists of assorted types in 'Europe and the West' at least? 'Large numbers' would be, what, a couple of hundred thousand of them maybe? If you are just thinking of the usual tired old list of Bucaille, Moore etc. (most of whom never actually converted anyway) you could no doubt find a list of just as many who became Wiccans or Scientologists.

Of course, many thousands of scientists have become muslims, just as many thousands have become Christians, and followers of the Dharmic religions, and agnostics, humanists and atheists - just as in any other sphere of life.

 

[K.Venugopal]

what object, I see no object, have you lost your marbles?

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called Hinduism VS Islam

Aadil, I think you have not yet started Hinduism vs. Islam thread.

My point is very simple. Is not everything that is outside you an object to you - whether you are able to see the object or not? Like you can't see germs, but still it is an object because it is outside you - maybe it is inside your body also, but the “you” talked about is the subject - what you get when you say "I". If Allah is outside you then He is an object, is He not? Whether He is actually an object is another matter, but as far as you are concerned, He is an object. So if you worship Him and He is an object for you, then you are indulging in idol worship. How is it difficult to understand this?

 

[Insaanah]

My point is very simple. Is not everything that is outside you an object to you - whether you are able to see the object or not? Like you can't see germs, but still it is an object because it is outside you - maybe it is inside your body also, but the “you” talked about is the subject - what you get when you say "I". If Allah is outside you then He is an object, is He not? Whether He is actually an object is another matter, but as far as you are concerned, He is an object.

Thank you for illustrating what I said in my post beautifully!

So if you worship Him and He is an object for you, then you are indulging in idol worship.

As above.

Peace.